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Re-reading this topic after Sousa mentioned TNG in another thread, I have to echo the love of Dukat. While there were a few moments when you felt like cheering for him, for the most part, everytime he appeared on screen, you just wanted to punch him in the mouth. He goes along with Weyoun. Weyoun was another great recurring villian in DS9, played perfectly by Jeffery Combs, who seemed to be the go-to guy on DS9 for recurring bad guys, since he also played Brunt from the Ferengie Commerce Association, and played Shran on ENT, another compelling character.

Though there never seemed to be many recurring good guys in the shows. DS9 would've been the perfect show to establish some during the war, but there were no recurring Star Fleet or Klingon captains, aside from General Martok, who also was a total badass and another great reason to watch DS9

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See, I never quite saw Weyoun as a villain; yes, the Dominion are the bad guys because the story says so; looking at it from their perspective, they do not trust anyone, and the main reason they go into the Alpha Quadrant is because the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order decided to wipe out the Founder's Homeworld (this gets debatable, thanks to uh, the Tal Shiar in charge :shifty:, but still, someone higher up signed off on it), and decided to show the Alpha Quadrant just what they were willing to do, from the Changeling Scare to the war between the Federation and the Klingons. The only reason they became the bad guys was because Dukat of people somehow managed to convince the Dominion that the Cardassians would sign up. I imagine that if Dukat told Central Command/The Detapa Council his plans, they'd laugh at him (considering he was a now disgraced officer conducting a one man war on the Klingons), but hey, it's easier when you have the Jem'Hadar backing you. Weyoun...was just trying to win a war. Now, the Female Changeling in the end did go into full villain mode, first by killing Cardassians for everyone of Damar's attacks, and then ordering outright genocide.

Martok really was a great character, he could've had his own show. He was much more of the traditional Klingon then Worf could ever hope to be (Because Martok grew up living the virtues that Word had pretty much only read about) .

What I'd really like to see is the adventures of the Enterprise-E during that whole arc. It's only one of the biggest baddest ships in the Fleet, yet we don't see a single one of them during DS9. We see a ton of Galaxy class, even a fucking Intrepid, but no Sovereign. Christ, they even threw in a few Defiant ships on Voyager. But nothing about Captain Picard during the war. What, was he just off doing his whole "explorer" gig while the crew jerked off over Dickens and classical music, as always? :shifty:

And it's funny I bring those up, because that's what really irked me about The Next Generation versus Deep Space Nine. Their hobbies. They all loved these classics like crazy. I don't have a problem with Picard listening to Berlioz in First Contact; when you talk classical music, the first names to show up are Mozart and Beethoven; Berlioz would be somewhat down the list :shifty: . But had that been a show, it would have been one of those two. You see Picard fence, you see Picard set up to go horseback riding; Data and Geordi screw around with Sherlock Holmes. Okay, well, Picard gets one pass, for the Dixon Hill bit. But that's it. You'll notice how often Dixon Hill showed up after that episode, by the way. Deep Space Nine, on the other hand. You have Sisko with a hard-on for baseball. You have Bashir and O'Brien fighting World War I or off in their little 007 ripoff. Even on Voyager, you had Tom with his goofy 50's sci-fi thing. And on Enterprise they watch old cult classics! None of that was present on The Next Generation at all, and that really irked me, showing an overall blandness to the characters. It's no wonder Q liked fucking with them so much, they needed the laughs. They weren't quite as bad in TOS, because they didn't have quite the same vision and it was different media; the only real hobby I remember is Kirk's collection of antiques, but at least he didn't have nothing but old crap (a Commodore computer can be seen in his apartment in Star Trek II).

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Weyoun was more of a...I dunno..neutral character? He was working for the bad guys, but as Weyoun was written and shown, he was acting for his own greater good...the good of the Founders and the Vorta. No other Vorta was as...I dunno...honorable?...as Weyoun...except for the one Iggy Pop played. Other Vorta were scheming...using the Jem'Hadar for their own good. Weyoun did seem to have some feelings for the people under him

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See, I never quite saw Weyoun as a villain; yes, the Dominion are the bad guys because the story says so; looking at it from their perspective, they do not trust anyone, and the main reason they go into the Alpha Quadrant is because the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order decided to wipe out the Founder's Homeworld (this gets debatable, thanks to uh, the Tal Shiar in charge :shifty:, but still, someone higher up signed off on it), and decided to show the Alpha Quadrant just what they were willing to do, from the Changeling Scare to the war between the Federation and the Klingons. The only reason they became the bad guys was because Dukat of people somehow managed to convince the Dominion that the Cardassians would sign up. I imagine that if Dukat told Central Command/The Detapa Council his plans, they'd laugh at him (considering he was a now disgraced officer conducting a one man war on the Klingons), but hey, it's easier when you have the Jem'Hadar backing you. Weyoun...was just trying to win a war. Now, the Female Changeling in the end did go into full villain mode, first by killing Cardassians for everyone of Damar's attacks, and then ordering outright genocide.

Pretty dubious I'd say. The first time anyone meets the Founders, they stick the crew in a virtual simulation to test whether they'd accept the Dominion waltzing in and taking over the Alpha Quadrant alllllll friendly-like...and when the answer is "no", it's pretty much taken as read that they will do it the hard way if they have to. Then, as you say, the "Tal Shiar" in charge for that episode comes out and admits they virtually engineered the whole thing, saying "although Enabran Tain had the original idea, the Founders did everything they could to make it happen" and that "now only the Klingon Empire and the Federation stand in the way of Dominion conquest of the Alpha Quadrant".

These are not guys who were going to leave everyone alone provided they played nice. :shifty:

As for Weyoun acting for his own greater good - do you remember the scene where he decides the only way to ensure the Federation stays subdued is to wipe out the entire population of Earth?

(At which point Dukat refutes this option with the following delightful exchange:)

Dukat: "You can't do that."

Weyoun: "Why not?"

Dukat: "Because...! A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness."

Weyoun: "Then you kill them?"

Dukat: "...Only if it's necessary."

Weyoun: "I had no idea."

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Interesting somewhat Star Trek story:

Shatner sounds like he was a real dick back in the day.

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I am just about to finish up my full rewatch of DS9 and it really is my favorite of all the series. Like numerous others have said the longer story arcs and robust ensemble really makes the show shine. I think what I like about it the most is the depth of relationships it portrays. It is really typical for a show to focus on how one character interacts with a number of others or to center around one relationship (TOS, and their movies for example leans heavily on Spock/Kirk's dynamic) but on DS9 you have Sisko and his Jake, Sisko and Dax, Dax and Bashir, Dax and Worf, O'Brien and Worf, O'Brien and Bashir, Quark and Odo, Jake and Nog, Quark and his brother, Nerys and Odo, Bashir and Garak etc... This is before you even get into protagonist/antagonist relations

All of the characters interact in some way and have a firmly defined dynamic to their relationship. It is very humanizing and for me is what made the show so much fun to watch.

Oh, and Sisko's freak outs are incredible to mimick or reference... THAT IS ANCIENT KNOWLEDGE.

Edited by GRIFT
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I don't think I've ever seen it on a freak out video like this one, but one of my favorite Siskoisms is from the pilot when he is trying to lift a pylon off his wife and he just kinda bellows, "HELP MEEEEEEEEEEEA!"

I think I obnoxiously reference that once a week -- usually to get my roomate to spot at the gym but also to chip in on dishes or general cleaning.

Edited by GRIFT
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Interesting somewhat Star Trek story:

WIL WHEATON VIDEO

Shatner sounds like he was a real dick back in the day.

Well, I suddenly understand why Paul and Storm subbed for Wheaton at Denver Comic Con when Wheaton couldn't make the con last year.

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I absolutely hate that Sisko breakdown. One of my least favorite things in Star Trek as a whole.

Benji, I felt that way about Kira at first, but she gets a lot of heroic moments when her stoicism is completely vindicated so I grew to like her. Also her ability to admit when she's wrong goes a long way.

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I'm probably one of the rare people who likes Voyager more than the others. I just always felt like that one really captured the "explore strange new worlds" concept in a really novel way. There were no enemies we'd seen in other series (Seska being the exception), so even as we got repeated enemies (the Maalon were one of the stranger ones - death by pollution), they were enemies which we had not seen repeatedly (okay, except for the Borg, but come on, they're in the Borg's home quadrant; and there was that one Romulan episode out of nowhere). There was a sense of newness to every encounter. More to the point, they were able to do things with the series that you might not be able to do with others. Because one of the crew was holographic, you were able to go centuries in to the future and see how profoundly a first contact situation affected an entire society. Starship designs were completely new, even with the titular vessel and the shuttles.

Of course, similar to TNG, a lot of episodes were focused upon the crew members that weren't truly human/adult (depending on the situation). I can remember more episodes that focused around Neelix, Naomi Wildman, Tuvok, the Doctor, Seven, or B'Elanna than I can the rest of the crew. Oh, and Harry stayed an Ensign even though, as he noted, had they not been shot across the galaxy at the same distance from Federation space as the Bajoran wormhole travels from Bajor, he would be a Lieutenant Commander by season six.

Ah well, still my favorite.

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Oh, and Harry stayed an Ensign even though, as he noted, had they not been shot across the galaxy at the same distance from Federation space as the Bajoran wormhole travels from Bajor, he would be a Lieutenant Commander by season six.

Promotions are so damn rare in Star Trek outside of the movies (in which generally all captains have become admirals and everyone else has become a captain). I'm struggling to think of more than a couple, e.g. Sisko and Worf (although his was technically in a movie too).

Oh, and Paris got promoted again after having been demoted, but that's cheating!

(Edit: Have also now remembered Kira becoming a Colonel...okay, that's three. :shifty:)

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Oh, and Harry stayed an Ensign even though, as he noted, had they not been shot across the galaxy at the same distance from Federation space as the Bajoran wormhole travels from Bajor, he would be a Lieutenant Commander by season six.

Promotions are so damn rare in Star Trek outside of the movies (in which generally all captains have become admirals and everyone else has become a captain). I'm struggling to think of more than a couple, e.g. Sisko and Worf (although his was technically in a movie too).

Oh, and Paris got promoted again after having been demoted, but that's cheating!

(Edit: Have also now remembered Kira becoming a Colonel...okay, that's three. :shifty:)

Um, not really, discounting movies:

From TOS:

Spock goes from Lieutenant Commander to Commander somewhere in Season 1.

FROM TNG:

Work goes from Liuetenant Junior Grade to Lieutenant

Geordi goes from Lieutenant Junior Grade to Lieutenant and then Lieutenant Commander

Troi goes from Lieutenant Commander to Commander

From DS9

Sisko goes from Commander to Captain

Jadzia Dax goes from Lieutenant to Lieutenant Commander

Bashir goes from Lieutenant Junior Grade to Lieutenant

Kira goes from Major to (yes, it was this) Lieutenant Colonel

Ezri Dax goes from Ensign to Lieutenant Junior Grade

Nog goes from Ensign to Lieutenant Junior Grade (I'm not counting his time as a cadet)

O'brien....yes. :shifty: (I really want to say he started as a plain old Chief and later got promoted to Senior Chief, but his ranks are fucked up)

From Voyager:

Tuvok goes from Lieutenant to Lieutenant Commander

Paris goes from Ensign to Lieutenant Junior Grade

And oddly, even though he was a Lieutenant Commander, nobody ever once referred to Chakotay as this. I'm not buying that Janeway couldn't promote Harry; she promoted Tuvok and then Tom (technically, Tom had been demoted, but still...) . The writers just loved picking on Harry, as seen in endgame when the ship he's the captain of his a Nova-class. I'm sure if they still had the model they would've made it an Oberth just to pick him on.

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