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Gabriel

Potential Changes to Mod Making

Should EWB Adopt a Freeware Policy on Mods  

33 members have voted

  1. 1. Should EWB Adopt a Freeware Policy on Mods

    • Yes
      32
    • No
      1


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Gabriel    1,073

Over on the Greydog boards, Adam currently has a poll up asking people about whether or not all mods should be considered freeware. In layman's terms, he wants to know if people believe that mods should be open to be used freely by any prospective mod makers, as we approach the release of TEW 2020.

I just wanted to get everyone's feelings on this from the perspective of our board. Personally, I think it's a great idea to help encourage quantity in regards to the mods available. As someone who has spent countless hours working on his own data, I completely understand why people might not want to jump on board with the idea.

I mentioned quantity being a thing that we need to improve on as a community, as with each version of the game, it seems like less and less mods actually make it to the playable stage... and I believe very strongly that it negatively impacts the sales and longevity of the game for a lot of people. (Thanks TheWho, for keeping me playing games outside of the data I make for myself). When I mentioned quantity being an issue, it was met with a quick "But if people just take things from different mods, nothing will gel right anyways and it will be crap" response. While I can say that, yes, we will end up with people releasing mods that aren't great... at the same time, mod makers who just import things and don't work on tweaks or fixes aren't going to get a lot of love anyways. If someone releases a mod that allows me to start with Xtreme Pro Wrestling from their very first show (which I would adore), including all the workers who ever worked there in the database, I would absolutely download it. But if all of the stats were wonky, I would give it up immediately. I would make fix recommendations to the mod maker, play a different mod instead, and maybe go back to a newer version of said mod if it got worked on some more.

So, what do you guys think?

Edited by Gabriel

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Bane    21

I guess the question that should be asked is how much would/should a MOD cost? How will that stack up in relation to the cost of the game? And if it were introduced would you subscribe to one users monthly updates or be expected to pay every month? I'm sure I'm not alone here but I've dled dozens of MODs with the intention to play them but never have or have for only a short time. I know that on me but as a consumer I would feel pretty ripped off if I've paid for something and it was a bit of a let down, especially with it having been free for so long.

I'm very appreciative of the wonderful people who take so much time and put in so much effort but I freeware is the way to keep it IMO.  If some of the ones I used promoted a paypal donation I would be happy to throw some thanks their way after I've played and come back again and again for their work. 

 

Edited by Bane
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2 hours ago, Bane said:

I guess the question that should be asked is how much would/should a MOD cost? How will that stack up in relation to the cost of the game? And if it were introduced would you subscribe to one users monthly updates or be expected to pay every month? I'm sure I'm not alone here but I've dled dozens of MODs with the intention to play them but never have or have for only a short time. I know that on me but as a consumer I would feel pretty ripped off if I've paid for something and it was a bit of a let down, especially with it having been free for so long.

I'm very appreciative of the wonderful people who take so much time and put in so much effort but I freeware is the way to keep it IMO.  If some of the ones I used promoted a paypal donation I would be happy to throw some thanks their way after I've played and come back again and again for their work. 

 

You're misunderstanding what Freeware means. In the terms of mods, it just means that once a mod is put out, it then becomes free game for someone else to use that mod as a base to create a new mod....or even add to the existing mod if the original mod maker was no longer updating the mod. I really don't think this was much of an issue in earlier iterations of the game because it felt like everyone was open to sharing their work. It felt more like the mod makers were there for the community rather than ones own glory. This changed when TEW 2016 was released and Genadi, one of the more prolific mod makers created "The Mod Squad" and deemed all of their work as being off limits for this kind of stuff.

Charging for a real life mod would be illegal as it would go against copyrights. It's one of the reasons that the TEW Series does not have real world rosters when the game starts. Making all Mods freeware would be good for the community. My only worry is that people like Genadi and those who supported him through TEW 2016 would simply quit modding which would make us no better off in the mod world.

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DMN    3,557
1 hour ago, The Banshee Fork said:

You're misunderstanding what Freeware means. In the terms of mods, it just means that once a mod is put out, it then becomes free game for someone else to use that mod as a base to create a new mod....or even add to the existing mod if the original mod maker was no longer updating the mod. I really don't think this was much of an issue in earlier iterations of the game because it felt like everyone was open to sharing their work. It felt more like the mod makers were there for the community rather than ones own glory. This changed when TEW 2016 was released and Genadi, one of the more prolific mod makers created "The Mod Squad" and deemed all of their work as being off limits for this kind of stuff.

Charging for a real life mod would be illegal as it would go against copyrights. It's one of the reasons that the TEW Series does not have real world rosters when the game starts. Making all Mods freeware would be good for the community. My only worry is that people like Genadi and those who supported him through TEW 2016 would simply quit modding which would make us no better off in the mod world.

Sounds like they're already freeware, and the 'Mod Squad' are just trying to use what pull they have to keep people off their shit. Like, what are they going to do if you use their mod, sue?

It's just a little bit of internet fame and notoriety going to people's heads. Fuck 'em.

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Well they can't really do anything about it, but it's more a respect thing. They have some of the better mod makers in their group but I feel like their little group has slowed progress on mod making more than it's helped the community as they claimed it would.

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DMN    3,557
52 minutes ago, The Banshee Fork said:

Well they can't really do anything about it, but it's more a respect thing. They have some of the better mod makers in their group but I feel like their little group has slowed progress on mod making more than it's helped the community as they claimed it would.

I totally understand it as a respect thing, and maybe it's not as arrogant as it sounded, but they sound like assholes...

Like, you're just making mods, you aren't making money, no need to be so serious.

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Gabriel    1,073

The only real pushback to making the mods all freeware on the GDS forums has come from Genadi, who blasted Adam inappropriately about the whole situation, and then started an argument with another user that got the thread locked.

I've seen a lot of people talk about the Mod Squad products and love them, but I've personally used other people's mods considerably more frequently. So, while it would absolutely suck to lose those guys for a lot of people, I do very strongly believe that the community will pick up anyways and a new batch of "elite" modmakers will be around.

I am fully supportive of this change, if Adam pushes it through. I'm excited too, because I do believe that the quantity of mods will increase, and that will in turn lead to a rise in quality mods over time. We'll have to sift through more crap mods, but it doesn't take long to set up the database for the game and try it out before you know whether or not it's worth your time. THen just rate it lowly or comment on what's wrong with it, and move on.

I just really want to get back to where our community was when EWR was king. It was possible to find mods for that game that would allow you to start at almost any major point you could imagine... new promotion opens up and you want to play from the beginning? There was probably a mod for that. Big heel or face turn in the WWE at a certain point and you want to play that out? There was probably a mod for that.

TEW 16 still doesn't have a good a Birth of TNA mod. There's a couple 2001 mods that are pretty good, but they're missing a lot of the guys that came into TNA after the first couple of years. Idol put out a 2004 mod that he's still working on, and that was a ton of fun, but it's still a year and a half after the launch of TNA. So on, and so forth.

Opening things up creates more opportunity for more quality content, and I think that is 100% the way to go.

 

EDIT: Time for an update. Adam replied to the thread on GDS and then closed it again. After the blow up in the thread last night, Adam has decided to postpone any changes to the current rules, which means that mod makers through GDS will still have the final say over the content that they create. Team Freeware has lost.

The consensus in posts in this thread seems to be that it should be freeware. So, why don't we go ahead and do that on EWB? Would any of the EWB mod-makers be opposed to this? We could do this and really step up our game here, and overtake GDS as the destination for TEW Mods.

 

EDIT 2: I've added a poll to the topic to gauge people's responses. That way if people want to have their say, but not necessarily get into a big debate about it, they can vote silently.

Edited by Gabriel

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C-MIL    24,253

My stance has always been that if you put in the work, then you get to make the rules.

That said, if somebody is so anti-sharing that they would object to somebody else using what they've made, they probably shouldn't be sharing it here in the first place.

I don't think there needs to be a formal policy about this. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been an issue here. It's another forum's drama and they can keep it.

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Gabriel    1,073
2 minutes ago, C-MIL said:

My stance has always been that if you put in the work, then you get to make the rules.

That said, if somebody is so anti-sharing that they would object to somebody else using what they've made, they probably shouldn't be sharing it here in the first place.

I don't think there needs to be a formal policy about this. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been an issue here. It's another forum's drama and they can keep it.

I think, for me anyways, it would be nice to establish an official board policy, one way or the other.

My idea is that all mods should be considered fair game to be used to develop other mods, but I don't think people should be allowed to take a mod, say Idol's 2004 mod, make some adjustments and release it with the same start date. It should at the very least need to be a month off, one way or the other. More than that, I feel like while the mods should be fair game for use in creating new ones, that any time someone releases something featuring work from any other creator, there should be a Bibliography of sorts, where each mod used is listed.

So, to summarize... Mods should be freeware and fair game... but if you're using a mod to create another, even if it's only the next month in the game world, you are required to list all mods that have been used to help put together the one you're releasing.

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C-MIL    24,253

What do you think the penalty should be for violating a hypothetical official board policy on this?

 

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Sean O'Game    505

So I might be in an odd position in this debate where I can provide a little insight others might not be able to, as I worked with the Mod Squad for a period of time and can attest to their inner workings.

The majority of the group is quite... Anti-Adam to say the least. They do not like him or his methods, which is their right I suppose. However, it is important to note that the group has a tendency to be very much their way or the highway as a whole. Well, rather, their leader Genadi does. He's very much the type that does not easily change from his initial opinion, and will stubbornly stick to it even if it's not the best for the group or mod in question. He also is apparently best mates with Meltzer and emails him often, so make of that what you will.

The Mod Squad was a good concept in theory, starting off. A group of the better mod makers working together to get things done much quicker, and put out quality mods for the community. The problem is, internally, not only is there very little actual support for the mod scene outside of their own bubble, they have a tendency to not even help their own outside of the core mod makers.

Case in point, I had wanted to branch out and make a 1998 mod... Instead, Art Of War was made for 1998 by Genadi. A project I was given no indication existed even as a member, and I was subsequently told to just do another year. The result being an unfinished mod where I not only had no assistance in finding resources (half of the benefit of the Mod Squad), but they also handed the same year to another member as well... Likely knowing neither of us would finish, as neither of us was given any real support. Hell, as far as the GDS forums go, the whole reason they started Wrestling Nexus in the first place was to try to usurp the GDS forums due to distaste for the state of it.

From all my dealings with the Mod Squad, it's left me incredibly jaded on the entire concept of mods being Freeware or not. By nature, I'd say no. Permission should be needed from the original mod makers as a matter of respect. If permission is not granted, prune the thread/mod from the forum. Nothing stops them from distributing it in other places but... that's neither here nor there.

The problem comes in, in my mind, what do you do when the original mod maker is incredibly disrespectful themselves? When they want to show no respect towards their own community, why should they be afforded respect themselves?

In the end, C-Mil put it best though. If you're so anti-sharing you'd object to someone using your work as a base, you probably shouldn't be sharing said work in the first place. It's highly custom mods for a title where high customization is the main drawing point. You have no actual legal rights to your 'product' in this case, so it comes down to a matter of ethics and nothing more. If you're so protective of your 'work' in a game so heavily hinged on customization, don't share your work in the first place.

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Gabriel    1,073
17 minutes ago, C-MIL said:

What do you think the penalty should be for violating a hypothetical official board policy on this?

 

Removal of the mod links from the board and a warning, followed by a permanent ban if it happens again. I'm not sure if we have someone who moderates the Mods forum, but if not, I'd be happy to do it or we could nominate someone to do that for the board.

Sean O'Game makes some good points too, and after reading that and your posts, maybe we should rectify it so that mods being made off of other mods, within a certain in-game time period, need to be given permission by the original mod maker? That way, we don't have someone release a June of 2002 mod for people to play TNA from the start, and then someone comes along, updates a couple of things and releases one that starts in July without the original maker being okay with it. Maybe something like, it has to be three months off of the mod you're updating? To ensure that quality mods don't get overlooked because someone else released what is essentially an updated version of it that starts at a time others may prefer, but doesn't really change all that much.

As difficult and time consuming as mod making is, and I know all about that because I've poured countless hours into a mod I've been working on for over a year (just for me to play really)... I find it quite silly to argue about intellectual property over something that no one can actually own anyways. So I still believe the mods should be freeware, but that we should have a policy in place to promote respect within the community.

I've had mod makers grant me access to their databases in the past, and have been super appreciative, but I've also had mod makers say some pretty awful things when they decline. It's really disillusioning to be treated poorly like that by a community that was originally built on respect and creativity, and I feel like if I got that treatment, others must have as well, and that probably contributed to the downturn in how many mods are being made/released.

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KJE    449

Does EWB have a secretive mod community that I'm unaware of?  Aren't the Who's monthly updates the only '16 mod that gets posted on EWB?

3 hours ago, Gabriel said:

Removal of the mod links from the board and a warning, followed by a permanent ban if it happens again. I'm not sure if we have someone who moderates the Mods forum, but if not, I'd be happy to do it or we could nominate someone to do that for the board.

Sean O'Game makes some good points too, and after reading that and your posts, maybe we should rectify it so that mods being made off of other mods, within a certain in-game time period, need to be given permission by the original mod maker? That way, we don't have someone release a June of 2002 mod for people to play TNA from the start, and then someone comes along, updates a couple of things and releases one that starts in July without the original maker being okay with it. Maybe something like, it has to be three months off of the mod you're updating? To ensure that quality mods don't get overlooked because someone else released what is essentially an updated version of it that starts at a time others may prefer, but doesn't really change all that much.

As difficult and time consuming as mod making is, and I know all about that because I've poured countless hours into a mod I've been working on for over a year (just for me to play really)... I find it quite silly to argue about intellectual property over something that no one can actually own anyways. So I still believe the mods should be freeware, but that we should have a policy in place to promote respect within the community.

I've had mod makers grant me access to their databases in the past, and have been super appreciative, but I've also had mod makers say some pretty awful things when they decline. It's really disillusioning to be treated poorly like that by a community that was originally built on respect and creativity, and I feel like if I got that treatment, others must have as well, and that probably contributed to the downturn in how many mods are being made/released.

 

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Gabriel    1,073
3 hours ago, KJE said:

Does EWB have a secretive mod community that I'm unaware of?  Aren't the Who's monthly updates the only '16 mod that gets posted on EWB?

 

We used to be the place for everything Extreme Warfare. Currently, TheWho is the only person consistently working on anything that I download, but I thought there was another person doing monthly updates, and we do occasionally have other mods posted. Idol's was posted on both boards, but I believe he is considerably more active here than GDS.

If we work together, I do think that we could get back to being a place that has consistent mods being worked on and rolled out. In fact, I'll put one out myself. I'll put a poll up tomorrow for what starting point people want to see, and then I'll provide weekly progress updates so that you guys can see what I'm doing, offer suggestions, or chastise me for not working hard enough if I'm slacking one week.

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Skummy    37,156

The extent to which the Mod Squad are throwing their toys out of the pram and kicking off about this shows just how toxic their big hitters have been allowed to become.

At the end of the day, this is a change to forum rules at GDS. They'll be completely unenforceable elsewhere, and there's nothing Genadi et al can do about people downloading their mods and editing them, or just posting them unedited, on other websites.

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and the way I see it the Mod Squad only have themselves to blame for any negative fallout from this. If they weren't bragging about being better at mod making than everyone else, throwing their weight around, refusing to host mods on GDS in favour of directing people to their own website, effectively claiming to be more important to the TEW community than Adam himself, and just generally being elitist pricks, and if instead they could be friendly, supportive and recognise that the vast majority of people don't give a shit who made a mod so long as it works, this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

The state of the threads on GDS about this is just embarrassing, and that all sits on the Mod Squad side of the argument.

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Naitch    2,109

They're being a bit pathetic, really.

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Bane    21
16 hours ago, Sean O'Game said:

He also is apparently best mates with Meltzer and emails him often, so make of that what you will.

So he is an absolute tit then.

2 hours ago, Skummy said:

At the end of the day, this is a change to forum rules at GDS. They'll be completely unenforceable elsewhere, and there's nothing Genadi et al can do about people downloading their mods and editing them, or just posting them unedited, on other websites.

This.

 

I think a bit of courtesy comes in to play, ask to use and give credit. As for the MOD Squad, if your in it to make money; you're in the wrong game, the wrestling fantasy booking nerd scene isn't exactly the most lucrative market...

 

 

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Skummy    37,156

TsuMirren's latest post got right on my tits.

It won't go down well with them, and probably not with a few others, but I've pointed out that - regardless of how much time and effort they feel like they have put into mod making - all they've done is use an editor tool that's freely available to anyone and everyone playing even the demo version of the game, and what they're arguing is that because they think they're better at using that tool than anyone else, they should be given special consideration by the game's developers, which is elitist and absurd.

That they're seriously throwing their toys out of the pram about all this makes me question what they think they're doing this for anyway. They're not making any money from it, and you'd think they want people to actually enjoy their work, but you'd never guess that from interacting with any of them.

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My biggest annoyance on the whole thing has been the fact that when The Mod Squad first formed, it was sold as a way to delivery high quality mods much faster than any other method. Which would have been great for the community as a whole because as I've said, they are very good mod makers. However, what it became is a lot of bullshit arguing, a couple of decent mods, one shitty mod that was thrown out way too soon and definitely was not up to the standards of the rest (I'm looking at you Art Of War), and then nothing else. I understand that mod making is incredibly time consuming and a lot of work, but the Mod Squad was founded on a collective effort towards Mods.

So why wasn't the entire group focusing on one mod at a time? In the end it was never about being better for the community. It was about some assumption of power that they never really had.

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Gazz    54,869
18 hours ago, Sean O'Game said:

The majority of the group is quite... Anti-Adam to say the least. They do not like him or his methods, which is their right I suppose. However, it is important to note that the group has a tendency to be very much their way or the highway as a whole. Well, rather, their leader Genadi does. He's very much the type that does not easily change from his initial opinion, and will stubbornly stick to it even if it's not the best for the group or mod in question. He also is apparently best mates with Meltzer and emails him often, so make of that what you will.

A late entry for the most pathetic thing I've read all year. :lol:

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Adam    7,350

I think others such as C-Mil, Sean and Skummy have made great points and said all I'd want to say on the matter as far as GDS and the concept of Freeware Mods goes. Let's be honest, all these mods are totally custom and completely "freeware" anyway, the attitude of that Mod Squad is laughably absurd. They are aware that without Adam Ryland they wouldn't even exist, right?

As far as EWB, and our mod making and game playing community, goes, I say we should start thinking about pooling mod-making efforts for when TEW 2020 comes out. I would be very enthusiastic to be involved in a team of mod makers on EWB, I think the breadth and depth of the game nowadays means putting out Real World updates is very difficult to do as a solo effort, and I think Who does a great job with that and I play his mods, but I think a collaborative effort with different people focusing on specific areas of both the game itself and the world we're trying to recreate within the game, is the way forward. That applies to keeping up-to-date Mods going and historical mods too.

So if anybody wants to start that particular conversation, let me know because I am extremely up for it. I love the TEW series but it isn't going to be much good if there aren't many playable mods for it in the future.

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Skummy    37,156

Adam has said that he wants mod making to be an easier, more streamlined process in TEW 2020, so I'm looking forward to seeing how that pans out and I'm hopeful that it'll result in some good stuff.

One thing that, for a variety of reasons, I don't think was taken advantage of enough in '16 was the ability to import data. That should have lead to much more collaborative working, and a whole rethink of how modding worked, and I'm hoping 2020 will expand on that.

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DMN    3,557

As someone who's been around since the first EWR (and I know plenty of others who were around for EWD and all that came before), it's just absurd to me that this is even a conversation.

I'd say 'get over yourselves', but glass houses and all.

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Naitch    2,109
6 hours ago, Adam es Tranquilo said:

As far as EWB, and our mod making and game playing community, goes, I say we should start thinking about pooling mod-making efforts for when TEW 2020 comes out.

Mod Squad 2: Electric Warfare Boogaloo

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