Hot Takes, but about SPORTS!

[DMN in the House]

@VerbalPuke, and I forgot to mention it, but Isiah does get a raw deal because of all the bullshit with Michael Jordan, the 'freeze out' and supposedly keeping Thomas off the Dream Team, but I'm not sure who you take him over, maybe Chris Mullen (assuming you keep one NCAA player).

[VerbalPuke]

1 minute ago, DMN said:

@VerbalPuke, and I forgot to mention it, but Isiah does get a raw deal because of all the bullshit with Michael Jordan, the 'freeze out' and supposedly keeping Thomas off the Dream Team, but I'm not sure who you take him over, maybe Chris Mullen (assuming you keep one NCAA player).

Probably Mullen yeah. 

I like Mullen though, always think of him and Tim Hardaway as a great duo. 

[Pooker]

@DMN, Magic's height I think is my main problem with putting him at number one. Now-a-days, height at the point guard spot is a lot more common than it was back in the 80s/90s. Magic had a major advantage over other PGs. I wouldn't say that Stockton playing over 600 more games and yet having less per game stats is a major deal. If Magic didn't get HIV and had played more years, his stats per game probably would be lower too. And you mentioned earlier that Jordan had a short career, and that was a knock against him. Wouldn't Magic having an even shorter career be a knock against him too, regardless of circumstance?

Nash's prime was probably better than Stockton and Thomas, but it was super short. I can't put him above Stockton or Thomas because of that. Top five point guard of all time, however. 

[GhostMachine]

Magic is always in the conversation when it comes to best NBA player of all time, along with Bird, Jordan, and Lebron. Nash, Thomas, Malone and Stockton don't even come close to making that discussion.

 

[Red Devil-Taker316]

2 hours ago, VerbalPuke said:

Nash? I can’t agree with that...

Actually I’ll counter with my own hot take, I’d take Chauncey Billups in his prime over Nash..

But I don’t dispute Magic, as you said, he was just able to do more than Isiah or Stockton. 

While I wouldn't take Billups over Nash, Billups is the most underrated player in NBA history and you can make the case he is actually a greater NBA player than say, Allen Iverson.

[JasonM]

I feel Stockton's legend is completely earned, even if his per games are lower.

He had 18 seasons where he only missed a handful of games in only a handful of seasons. His longevity is insane and his steals and assists record might never ever be broken again.

Whilst he wasn't offensively dominant like MJ or even Malone, he made everyone better with his presence and the only thing that stopped the Jazz getting a ring was MJ, and Hakeem those two seasons MJ was off playing baseball.

His longevity shouldn't be a knock because he was phenomenal even in his last year.

He'll never be MJ level, but nobody will also ever be Stockton level again.

Fuck Karl Malone though, child fucking piece of shit deserves to be forgotten

[Red Devil-Taker316]

8 minutes ago, Jasonmufc said:

I feel Stockton's legend is completely earned, even if his per games are lower.

He had 18 seasons where he only missed a handful of games in only a handful of seasons. His longevity is insane and his steals and assists record might never ever be broken again.

Whilst he wasn't offensively dominant like MJ or even Malone, he made everyone better with his presence and the only thing that stopped the Jazz getting a ring was MJ, and Hakeem those two seasons MJ was off playing baseball.

His longevity shouldn't be a knock because he was phenomenal even in his last year.

He'll never be MJ level, but nobody will also ever be Stockton level again.

Fuck Karl Malone though, child fucking piece of shit deserves to be forgotten

I agree with most of this if not all, but need to point out there are a lot of stories that Stockton's assist total is buttered up greatly due to scorers tables in Utah being quite generous with giving him assists.

EDIT: want to add I don't necessarily think it's true, just something I've heard/read multiple times

Edited February 26, 2019 by Red Devil-Taker316

[JasonM]

20 minutes ago, Red Devil-Taker316 said:

I agree with most of this if not all, but need to point out there are a lot of stories that Stockton's assist total is buttered up greatly due to scorers tables in Utah being quite generous with giving him assists.

EDIT: want to add I don't necessarily think it's true, just something I've heard/read multiple times

I know that home stats were definitely fluffed in Utah, but I firmly believe that most teams were getting better stats at home than away, before things were monitored with external scorekeepers.

Even taking that, if you remove Stockton's final six seasons, he'd still have the record, which is one of those Gretzky-like stats that are just wild. So I think he would've been safe even taking the home court advantage in account.

Edit: Career splits have him produce ~550 less assists on the road than at home over his career, which is insignificant and amounts to less than an assist per game taken across his career totals, but even taking 550 off his numbers he's over 3000 assists removed from Kidd at #2

So yeah, it would mean jack squat, really.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Jasonmufc

[DMN in the House]

5 hours ago, Pooker said:

@DMN, Magic's height I think is my main problem with putting him at number one. Now-a-days, height at the point guard spot is a lot more common than it was back in the 80s/90s. Magic had a major advantage over other PGs. I wouldn't say that Stockton playing over 600 more games and yet having less per game stats is a major deal. If Magic didn't get HIV and had played more years, his stats per game probably would be lower too. And you mentioned earlier that Jordan had a short career, and that was a knock against him. Wouldn't Magic having an even shorter career be a knock against him too, regardless of circumstance?

Nash's prime was probably better than Stockton and Thomas, but it was super short. I can't put him above Stockton or Thomas because of that. Top five point guard of all time, however. 

I mention it because John Stockton's resume is, in part, built on his title as 'all time assist leader', which is a function of playing nearly 2/3rd longer than Magic did. If he never gets HIV I don't think Stockton touches that record.

His longevity is a credit to him, but it's not enough to make up the difference in talent, athletiscm, or career resume between Stockton and Magic, whereas I was basically comparing Jordan to Kareem, which is a much closer debate where Kareem's longevity 'means' more. Context matters.

[Pooker]

Thank you, @Jasonmufc for researching Stockton's assists and not just believing that he had the benefit of home cooking. Like you mentioned, his assists on the road were 10.1 per game, while at home it was 10.9 per game. It's always made me laugh when people have tried to discredit him that way.

@DMN, I have to agree that context does matter and your explanation was excellent. Magic truly was a great player, tragically cut short. I would still think that Stockton would have the assists record, even if Magic had played a full career. Kareem was already gone, Worthy was breaking down, unless they had traded for another All-Star, I see Magic as firmly in second in assists.

Anyway, to get this back on track, my hot take for today...steroids made baseball a lot more fun to watch and follow in the 90s then it is now.

[The Buscher]

Stockton's durability was ridiculous and there weren't any really sharp signs of decline.  He retired to spend more time with his family but he feasibly could've played a few more years to pad his stats out even further.

[FestiveJack]

Neither Messi or Ronaldo are the greatest of all time.

[Pooker]

13 minutes ago, Eric Buschenhagen said:

Stockton's durability was ridiculous and there weren't any really sharp signs of decline.  He retired to spend more time with his family but he feasibly could've played a few more years to pad his stats out even further.

There's plenty of stories out there of Stockton playing pickup games at Gonzage and still being the dominant player on the court, even in his fifties. 

[Bobfoc]

42 minutes ago, MexicoJack said:

Neither Messi or Ronaldo are the greatest of all time.

I'm inclined to agree, but who do you think is the greatest?

[TCO]

It really is Messi and I don't think it's even close to be honest.

The only counter point that's acceptable is a defender because they don't get put in the conversation at all.

Messi is in his own stratosphere in my eyes though.

[Adam]

Let's be honest, we've all watched football for between 20 and 30 years maybe too so having an opinion on a true "GOAT" is rather difficult for most people. I can't say whether Pele was really any good, or Bobby Moore, or Maradona etc. compared to Messi, Ronaldo, or 2000s players I have seen a lot of like Thierry Henry or Paolo Maldini.

[Bobfoc]

It's also unclear as to how well the old greats would do today, or equally how well today's stars would get on decades ago. Training and coaching methods are different, as is the way club and international football is organised.

When I look at how the athletics records have progressed over the decades, it makes me wonder about how the quality has developed in other sports, like football. Professional athletes are evidently getting faster and stronger on average, but is that down to better training regimes or someone more to do with the evolution of the human species? If today's footballers are fitter and more athletic now than ever before, are their technical skills similarly superior to their forerunners?

[FestiveJack]

51 minutes ago, Bobfoc said:

It's also unclear as to how well the old greats would do today, or equally how well today's stars would get on decades ago. Training and coaching methods are different, as is the way club and international football is organised.

When I look at how the athletics records have progressed over the decades, it makes me wonder about how the quality has developed in other sports, like football. Professional athletes are evidently getting faster and stronger on average, but is that down to better training regimes or someone more to do with the evolution of the human species? If today's footballers are fitter and more athletic now than ever before, are their technical skills similarly superior to their forerunners?

This is my issue with comparisons between current and old players. Garrincha was a certified cripple with one leg 6 centimetres longer than the other, was born into desperate poverty, smoked, dranked and whored his way through life and failed both the IQ test and the physchological test Brazilian players were made to take prior to the 58 World Cup. He also went to three World Cups, won two of them and was the best player in one. He lost just once in 50 appearances for Brazil.

Now imagine if had lived today, with modern medicine, training and approaches to training. It's entirely possible he'd be better than Messi is - it's also possible that his eccentricity, his love of the game and beating a player twice just because he could, would be coached out of him at a young age.

[MDK]

I don't think it is fair to compare players from different era's. Like was said earlier all kinds of things have changed over the years, but I reckon that you could still compare goal keepers over the ages. The goal hasn't changed size or anything, fitness isn't the most important thing for a goalie and they have largely been unaffected by tactical changes. Still got to keep the ball out of the net no false 1's here.

1 hour ago, Bobfoc said:

When I look at how the athletics records have progressed over the decades, it makes me wonder about how the quality has developed in other sports, like football. Professional athletes are evidently getting faster and stronger on average, but is that down to better training regimes or someone more to do with the evolution of the human species? If today's footballers are fitter and more athletic now than ever before, are their technical skills similarly superior to their forerunners? 

Even the ball! Those old medicine balls they used to use... just imagine if those stars from a bygone era were using todays modern football.

[Gorka]

I adore the rule in Union that the game only ends when the ball goes dead, just for the excitement it generates with an attacking team desperate to keep possession.

Quality entertainment.