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Meacon say “Hi People!”

MLB 2019-2020 Offseason Thread

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What I think should be done, after reading various reports:

1. Lifetime ban for Cora for being involved in both the Astros and Red Sox situations.

2. All coaches and players still active that were on the teams (Astros 2017, Red Sox 2018) fined every single dime they made for postseason play those years + $10,000. The extra 10 grand from each fine goes to a charity of the Dodgers' choice.

3. Postseason ban for the upcoming season. Any player currently on the Astros or Red Sox that was not on the team during the season in question for each can ask for and has to be granted either an unconditional release or a one-year contract extension. Any player that was on one of those teams and still is cannot be traded or released. (Or alternatively they cannot be traded, but if are released are suspended for a season)

4. All awards given to those teams, including Gold Gloves, Silver Sluggers, and especially Altuve's and Springer's MVPs stripped.

Regardless of what does or doesn't happen, I'm betting a higher than normal amount of players that were on those teams end up facing chin music or getting intentionally hit with pitches this upcoming season. And I have absolutely no problem with that.  I also have a feeling any players on those teams who are future Hall of Famers can kiss getting in on the first ballot goodbye. 

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Additionally...

1.  Each and every person involved has to eat a baseball.  It can be boiled or fried and served with rice, or lo mein 

2.  New awards are given out like biggest cheater, least creative cheater and guy who did the worst while still cheating.  This takes place during an 8 hour awards show, attendance is mandatory.  It’s hosted by James Corden and the musical guest is Pitbull he performs the song Greenlight 4 times.

3. Alex Cora Is banned from purchasing Big League Chew for the rest of his life.

4.  The Dodgers just get to be world champions this year.  Like we do the whole season as usual but at the end regardless of who wins, the Dodgers get to be champions.

5. Jose Altuve has to play shirtless for the rest of his career.

6.  The players can never opt out of their contracts.  They must all remain on their cheating teams until they retire.

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Peter Gammons just released his ballot.  Voted for Larry Walker the last several years...then decides to drop Walker in his final year on the ballot when he needs the vote most.  The reason?  Too much of a disparity in his home and away batting average.

Beyond the silliness of using batting average alone as a metric, the voters who cite this crap make it sound like Walker was useless outside of Coors.  He hit .282 in all other stadiums.

In Gammons' case it's even worse as someone re-posted a tweet of his from four years ago in which he pointed out that Walker had better career road numbers than Griffey.

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Jon Heyman voted for Barry Bonds, Derek Jeter, Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, and Curt Schilling.

No Walker. No Clemens. Which is hilarious since his voting Bonds means he’s over the PED thing which swayed his voting the last couple years. Walker is one thing but I don’t get how you can vote Bonds and not Clemens. That just makes no sense.

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Only about an hour after the Rockies GM says that he is not considering trade talks for Nolan Arenado, Arenado texts someone at MLB.com and says in no uncertain terms that he feels disrespected and doesn't want to be there anymore.

So this looks like it'll wind up being a Stanton situation all over again.  You've got a young superstar with contract that is difficult to move (Stanton due to the length and dollars, Arenado's is more reasonable but he has a looming opt-out), and now he's trying to force his way out of town which gives the trading team even less leverage.

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7 hours ago, Meacon say “Hi People!” said:

Walker is one thing but I don’t get how you can vote Bonds and not Clemens. That just makes no sense.

I hate to say this, because FTG, but Barry Bonds was a much, MUCH better baseball player than Roger Clemens. One is arguably the greatest hitter of all time (and PEDs didn't give him that patience at the plate), the other is, like, maybe a top 10 pitcher all time, maybe? I was gonna say top five but he isn't.

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7 hours ago, Carlos Buschtran said:

Only about an hour after the Rockies GM says that he is not considering trade talks for Nolan Arenado, Arenado texts someone at MLB.com and says in no uncertain terms that he feels disrespected and doesn't want to be there anymore.

So this looks like it'll wind up being a Stanton situation all over again.  You've got a young superstar with contract that is difficult to move (Stanton due to the length and dollars, Arenado's is more reasonable but he has a looming opt-out), and now he's trying to force his way out of town which gives the trading team even less leverage.

Yeah the Rockies blew this one. The difference between him and Stanton is the Yankees had a perfect landing spot, but I'd doubt they want to take on Arenado's salary in addition to everything else they have now.

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10 hours ago, DMN said:

I hate to say this, because FTG, but Barry Bonds was a much, MUCH better baseball player than Roger Clemens. One is arguably the greatest hitter of all time (and PEDs didn't give him that patience at the plate), the other is, like, maybe a top 10 pitcher all time, maybe? I was gonna say top five but he isn't.

So you don’t believe a Top 10 pitcher is a Hall of Fame lock? Just because he’s not the best ever doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be a slam dunk election. He’s still better than 99% of players to play the game.

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47 minutes ago, Meacon say “Hi People!” said:

So you don’t believe a Top 10 pitcher is a Hall of Fame lock? Just because he’s not the best ever doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be a slam dunk election. He’s still better than 99% of players to play the game.

No, he obviously belongs in the HOF, though the more I think about it he might not even be top 10, just commenting on how you could vote for Bonds and not Clemens. Bonds was an all-time talent regardless of PEDs, Clemens is *maybe* a top three of his generation guy (I'd probably choose Maddux or Randy Johnson over him). They aren't really comparable, the only reason people say their names in the same sentence is PEDs.

Yeah, I know Clemens has a MVP and seven Cy Youngs, but he ain't exactly Sandy Koufax.

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We’re going to have to agree to very much disagree then.

Clemens would’ve been inducted years ago if it wasn’t for the PEDs. 350+ wins. 4600+ strikeouts. A career 3.12 ERA and 1.17 WHIP in the era he was in. Plus, hell, the eye test alone. Can any of us who lived during Clemens era really say he wasn’t one of the most dominant pitchers of that generation? I feel like that’s just common knowledge.

The comparison to Koufax is odd considering it was a totally different era and Rocket pitched literally twice as long as Sandy. 

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8 minutes ago, Meacon say “Hi People!” said:

We’re going to have to agree to very much disagree then.

Clemens would’ve been inducted years ago if it wasn’t for the PEDs. 350+ wins. 4600+ strikeouts. A career 3.12 ERA and 1.17 WHIP in the era he was in. Plus, hell, the eye test alone. Can any of us who lived during Clemens era really say he wasn’t one of the most dominant pitchers of that generation? I feel like that’s just common knowledge.

The comparison to Koufax is odd considering it was a totally different era and Rocket pitched literally twice as long as Sandy. 

We aren't even disagreeing. I agree with all of that, outside of preferring Greg Maddux.

What I'm saying is that Bonds wasn't just one of the most dominant hitters of his generation, he was one of the most dominant hitters of all-time. They aren't really in the same class, unless you want to argue that Clemens is a top 3 pitcher all-time, because that's what Bonds is as a hitter.

I mention Koufax because I'm a huge homer, but also because he's a consensus top 3-5 pitcher of all time, which Clemens is not, even if he wore pinstripes.

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I’d be banging this drum even if he spent his whole career in Boston. Him being a former Yankee has nothing to do with my argument. 

My reason for including him with Bonds is because they’re both so obviously Hall of Famers and literally the only reason neither is in is because of the PEDs. As I said, he’d been in years ago if that wasn’t the case. So voting one guy with PEDs hanging over his head, and not another, when both have above and beyond the accolades to get in is silly. I’m not saying Clemens is as good of a pitcher as Bonds was a hitter. But that Rocket is so obviously a Hall or Famer and keeping him out for the same reasoning with a guy being voted in doesn’t make sense.

If someone wants to keep both out for PEDs, more power to them. But I’m not sure how you overlook it for one and not the other.

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Derek Jeter and Larry Walker are in.  Jeter gets 99.7% of the vote, Walker barely clears the threshold with 76.6%

Curt Schilling finishes at 70% and generally candidates that finish in the 70's will make it the next year.  Bonds and Clemens finish at 61% and at this point I don't think the old voters keeping them out will leave until they're off the ballot.

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What's everyone's feelings on the effects of PED on stats and HOF stuff. Like @DMN said, Bonds was a legit talent at the plate, but would he have been a HOFer without the roids?

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I hope it was a writer who wanted to vote for 10 players and not risk someone dropping off, not someone who left Jeter off purely out of spite.

At least it’s not as bad now that someone actually did reach 100%.

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14 minutes ago, JMarushin said:

What's everyone's feelings on the effects of PED on stats and HOF stuff. Like @DMN said, Bonds was a legit talent at the plate, but would he have been a HOFer without the roids?

Absolutely. He probably wouldn't have hit 73 homers or 762 career homers, but he still would have very much had Hall of Fame numbers. 

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Hall of Fame voters suck. Like why make Larry Walker wait 10 years? His numbers aren't suddenly better now. The whole "is this guy a first ballot hall of famer?" thing is garbage to me. You either are or you aren't. It's not like they don't have the space. Only 2 people made it this time

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If you stop Bonds' and Clemens' careers before they're suspected of using PEDs (I think 96 for Clemens and 98 for Bonds) they're Hall of Fame locks. So without PEDs their career totals aren't as great, Bonds probably has a little above 500 HRs and Clemens might have been done by the end of the 90s with around 250 career wins a slightly higher career ERA than what he finished with. But those are still definite Hall of Fame numbers.

While I openly support all steroids guys who are good enough going in you can't say the same for someone like Sosa or McGwire who while both would have had good careers their career numbers as a whole were dramatically enhanced by PEDs.

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Before he was outed as a cheater, Clemens was my favorite starting pitcher. I have absolutely no problem with him not getting in the Hall. To me, cheaters like PED users and signal stealers belong in the Hall less than someone like Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson.

For me, the Bonds threshhold is when he moved to the Giants. Because he did not begin to bulk up until after he was with them. 

No comment on McGwire and Sosa. Because they're part of the reason Baseball dropped to my second favorite team sport behind Football.

And Jeter getting as high a percentage of the vote that he got is straight up bullshit. He deserved to be in first ballot, but there's no way he deserved that many votes. Mariano Rivera deserved unanimous induction because he was the most dominant closer ever. Jeter got votes based on popularity and likeability more than skill. Jeter is not the greatest shorstop of all-time. Larry Walker having to wait so long, then barely getting in, is also bullshit. 

 

 

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Next year has a very weak crop of first-time eligible players.  The best of the bunch are Mark Buehrle and Tim Hudson who are nowhere close to being Hall of Famers.

The unfortunate irony is that some writers have continued to resist voting for Schilling because they don't want someone with his horrendous off-field views to get the stage...but now with him only needing to gain 5% on a weak ballot and everybody else 15%+ away, he might get the stage all to himself next year.

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The thing about Jeter's vote total is that it was only last year that Rivera became the first player to be inducted at 100%. So the seal is broken. You're suddenly going to see a bunch of guys get way higher vote totals in their 1st years than ever before. 

I have to agree with Meacon about Clemens and Bonds. If you're not going to vote for anyone who used PEDs, then leave both of your ballot. If you're willing to allow someone who used them in, then there's no way both aren't in the top 10 players on any ballot. 

It's going to be interesting once guys who got caught using PEDs, but were punished (A-Rod) get put on the ballot. I can't see how it's right that you could vote for A-Rod and not for Bonds just because there was no punishment for using them while Bonds played. 

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