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So we're saying that aside from the 30 or 40-odd club matches a player participates in during a season, it's also really really vital to their ability come the summers of 2016 and 2018 that they also play a handful of matches against Moldova et al?

And don't tell me that spending five days in England training sessions every few months imbues them with vital tactical knowledge, that otherwise magnificent players will flounder without when Roy unleashes whatever his tactical masterpiece is come the major tournaments...because it doesn't.

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Well, that's a little narrow-minded. I agree we're fine to be playing both right now, but we should be building for the future, which we are doing in other areas of the pitch. The inclusion of Wilshere, who is the future, compliments both Lampard and Gerrard. There's no reason why we can't be playing Lampard & Gerrard and build for the future.

Why is it narrow-minded? In 2013, they are still our best players. In 2015, they won't be, so they won't be playing.

We aren't good enough to build for the future. We need our best players on the football pitch at all times.

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Like i said before, Lampard and Gerrard are great players but it is also indicative of our failings as a nation that they were also our best players years ago when they were in their prime.

It will do Wilshere the world of good playing alongside them during international games but you need to strike up an understanding now with someone who can fit the roles Lampard/Gerrard have in the national squad.

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If we cannot beat Moldova and the likes of that ilk without Gerrard and Lampard we don't deserve to qualify regardless.

It's fine to bring them on for some experience in the big games if the shit hits the fan or start with them and bring on/blood in new players after half time but having pretty much the same old tiresome XI every single tournament is boring, predictable and the reason why we are shit.

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Nah I don't buy this nonsense. You had Pirlo running wild for Italy against you lot last year that should shot that if Gerrard and Lampard are the best players then they should be playing.

What's the point of throwing inferior players in at a young age, it's not going to make them superstars. The reason Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney and Wilshere were in the England squad at such a young age was because they were good enough to grab those spots. They weren't forced in there over players who were better than them. They're world-class players because they were gifted and developed at their club. Not because they were thrown into England games before they were ready.

This whole thing is ridiculous anyway because Ross Barkley who's 19, a god damn centre midfielder and doesn't even have 20 league appearances was playing last night. What more do you want? Gerrard and Lampard in the stands so Will Hughes and James Ward-Prowse can play?

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Nah I don't buy this nonsense. You had Pirlo running wild for Italy against you lot last year that should shot that if Gerrard and Lampard are the best players then they should be playing.

What's the point of throwing inferior players in at a young age, it's not going to make them superstars. The reason Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney and Wilshere were in the England squad at such a young age was because they were good enough to grab those spots. They weren't forced in there over players who were better than them. They're world-class players because they were gifted and developed at their club. Not because they were thrown into England games before they were ready.

This whole thing is ridiculous anyway because Ross Barkley who's 19, a god damn centre midfielder and doesn't even have 20 league appearances was playing last night. What more do you want? Gerrard and Lampard in the stands so Will Hughes and James Ward-Prowse can play?

Look at my post right above and you will see i don't want that.

I mean take an example here..Gerrard and Lampard are great players no doubt but they are players not playing in the top 5 who can easily do a job for England in their position who we should be trying now to safeguard for the future and to give them the benefit of the tutelage from Gerrard/Lamps by playing with them.

Players like Adam Lallana, Delph, Westwood, JWP could all be world beaters and have shown they can cut it in the Premiership so why not give them the opportunity to play alongside Gerrard and Lamps now?

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Nah I don't buy this nonsense. You had Pirlo running wild for Italy against you lot last year that should shot that if Gerrard and Lampard are the best players then they should be playing.

What's the point of throwing inferior players in at a young age, it's not going to make them superstars. The reason Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney and Wilshere were in the England squad at such a young age was because they were good enough to grab those spots. They weren't forced in there over players who were better than them. They're world-class players because they were gifted and developed at their club. Not because they were thrown into England games before they were ready.

This whole thing is ridiculous anyway because Ross Barkley who's 19, a god damn centre midfielder and doesn't even have 20 league appearances was playing last night. What more do you want? Gerrard and Lampard in the stands so Will Hughes and James Ward-Prowse can play?

Look at my post right above and you will see i don't want that.

If they're not good enough they shouldn't be involved at all. Having them play house with Gerrard and Lampard for a week shouldn't be a priority when theres superior but older players out there. Their time will come and as Stok already said a week here and there with the England squad isn't going to develop them any more than they would've already.

These are world class professional footballers, they're not going to go to shit when they play for England at a later age. It's the same game.

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You build for the future now, by the time they're no longer the future, but the present, everybody will be asking for the next generation to come along.

Fuck it then, let's get the U-19's on the pitch. Let's not bother qualifying for any tournaments.

.. I was agreeing with your point. :P

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There's clearly merit in looking to the future, but it isn't done just by giving someone a token cap over Lampard or Gerrard and expecting them to 'learn the system'. It has to happen from the U19s upwards, with proper coaching and no daft early callups to the senior side (Rooney is the recent exception, but Walcott, Chamberlain etc could've formed the backbones of their respective junior sides and you could have had 3 or 4 players coming up at the same time rather than in dribs and drabs).

Basically, just look at Germany.

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It seems simplistic but surely any team, particularly an international one (due to the limitations on player and coaching time), should begin by having a defined philosophy and a strong leader.

Take the Germans as an example. Klinsmann chose how he wanted to play, and stuck to his principles, even if it involved upsetting big name players. Low has done similar since replacing him.

Spain chose their way of playing and Aragones also stuck to his principles, with his replacement (Del Bosque) doing the same.

Klinsmann and Aragones are both strong characters, so that helped as they shaped the redefinition of their teams. Their replacements were a little less charismatic, but just continued the work that had already begun.

I'm not sure that Hodgson is strong enough to do that for England, and nobody talks about defining how England play - just who should play. There is also the fact the England don't really have a plan how to win, meaning victories against teams of a similar level are more by luck than judgement.

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As I said, I think we can play Gerrard & Lampard and build for the future. I agree with Ant that we should be giving the likes of Lallana, Ward-Prowse and others a chance. They shouldn't be getting there chance instead of Lampard and Gerrard, they should be getting over the likes of Milner, Young and others who have had plenty of caps and still shown they can't add much value to the England team. There's nothing to say these players won't excel - you always play better when you're playing with better players and Lambert's shown you can make a lot out of a chance.

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