***spoilers*** UFC News and Discussion Thread

[Chris2K]

Chael owns a Pizzeria and this is the current special...

He's a hard man to hate.

[EddieG]

It's quite easy to be honest.

[Walker]

Jon Jones is a piece of shit, bottom line.

Not only did he take money out of the pockets of every single fighter on that card, but he also took time, money and enjoyment away from fans who would've booked flights, hotels, time off work, etc. to go see a UFC card. It's reprehensible and I seriously can't believe that he'd do something like that. Regardless of the fact that it's short notice, it's been mentioned a million times over that he is a world champion - well prepared versus someone who got called in at the last second. He is supposed to be the best of the best, and regardless of winning, losing - he is paid to go in there and fight. There's no excuse for this bullshit.

There's no defending this.

It is this bit I don't get really. He didn't tell anyone to cancel the show, Dana White made that decision. Dana White COULD have kept the show going. The only way to defend that decision is to say it would make no fiscal sense to keep the show going without the draw, which is exactly the same defence Jon Jones has for not fighting Chael Sonnen. If you are going to be angry over the fighters not getting paid you should be blaming the guy who decided not to pay them.

[gunnar hendershow]

Nobody's not angry at Dana, the issue is that Dana went through with a last-ditch effort to salvage the show and Jones said "lol, no." Dana knows he screwed up, but the company would have lost money without Jones. As a result, what's the point paying the fighters if you're using fake money? Dana made a business decision which resulted from a scheduling error partially his fault. He can't reasonably say "yeah we'll lose money on the show but we'll do it anyway for these fans and these fighters" as he isn't a dictator with nobody to answer to. Dana's role in this debacle is purely because of the harsh realities of business. Jones' role in this is purely due to ego and selfishness.

[EddieG]

But the internet is hardly blaming Dana, and Dana has gone on full-on attack against Jon Jones and Greg Jackson, giving them 200% of the blame.

[Plubby]

If your boss says "Hey can you do me a favour?" Surely to christ you could at least say "I can do that, but can we do it *this* way?" And suggest one of the many alternatives that have been suggested (including the most obvious non-title bout) instead of the aforementioned "lol no".

[Quom]

But a loss is a loss. I can't really blame Jones for not taking any fight. It's his record on the line. He owes UFC nothing. What does he care if a card collapses because he can't take a fight? To him it just shows that he's being underpaid as every cent Dana is making is contingent on a fighter with his name value propping up the card.

In 6 months time people would forget Sonnen was a last minute replacement and if anything UFC would actively participate in this in the hopes of creating another star. So it would have been Jones giving back, pure and simple. The question is then what has he been given that requires him to give back? This wasn't an offer like 'we would like to give you Couture or a Gracie to show how quickly the sport has evolved and to cement you as the current GOAT' it was 'yeah Henderson is out, so we would like you to fight this guy who nearly had our current GOAT's number on shot notice, how cool is that!'

It is entirely a negotiation, Dana had no leg to stand on and likely didn't want to pay a price that was adequate after telling Jones that an entire PPV hinged on him appearing. If I was in Jones' shoes I would be asking for at least 50% of the profit from the show. Why not, if he is the whole show he can demand it.

This is what happens when you are using athletes and a model which is aiming for rapid exponential growth. They realise that without them you have no product and if you spread your roster too thin you have no way of denying this. Now is the time for an Affliction or Strikeforce to swoop in. Pick up Jones, Rampage and any other fighter UFC has that isn't content, work a smaller schedule and let UFC try and cover all the holes you have just created when they are committed to 15+ shows a year.

If your boss says "Hey can you do me a favour?" Surely to christ you could at least say "I can do that, but can we do it *this* way?" And suggest one of the many alternatives that have been suggested (including the most obvious non-title bout) instead of the aforementioned "lol no".

No. If my boss said if you don't do this then you and everyone else won't be getting paid as there will be no work for you. I would then start looking for another job as I would realise I was incurring my own expenses working for this person (training camp, corner men etc) and that the boss wasn't willing to cover this cost in the event that his job fell through.

If Bolt, Phelps, Kobe Bryant or any other athlete gets injured their event/game doesn't get cancelled.

[gunnar hendershow]

So a loss is a loss? If Jones loses he gets to have a rematch at some point with Sonnen, he'll have ample preparation, if he wins that the loss means nothing in the eyes of all except the most casual fans who only have seen the one fight he lost. Not to mention he was probably going to wind up fighting Chael at some point anyway. Also, the only way the "it's unfair" argument works is if Chael had been training for weeks before, knowing Hendo was injured, specifically for Jones. IF Chael was just in his normal routine, as seems likely, instead of his pre-fight routine then he's taking as big a shot to his reputation especially coming off a loss. Except unlike the wannabe golden boy, he wasn't afraid to take that loss. If you went to a football game and found out Ray Lewis just wanted to sit on the bench, or were going to see a Justin Verlander start but heard he decided to stay home, or went to a basketball game and LeBron James asked for the night off you'd be outraged. But instead, it's okay that Jones wanted to do this because after all Dana White should have known he wouldn't want to take a fight and follow the unspoken precedent of the entire sport. The integrity of him nor the sport matters, just his win-loss record.

Defending Jon Jones here is fighting a horrendously bad losing battle. Hell he himself took the blame for it.

"Carrying the cross for my company's decision," Jones tweeted. "If someone has to take the blame, I will accept full responsibility for the way UFC 151 was canceled. I want to sincerely apologize to all the other athletes (and) fans whose time and money was wasted.

[Quom]

I'm not defending him, since in my eyes he needs no defence. He said he wasn't prepared to take a fight on short notice. That's as far as his role in this goes. End of really.

It's not his job (and frankly fighters don't have enough incentive) to bend over for the boss. This isn't wrestling where the guys are marks. This is a sport where people make it based on who they have faced and the result. A lot of people overlook the single loss on Jones' record as he was DQ'd in a fight he was totally dominating. A short notice loss is different though, Chael had the same prep time etc etc really doesn't matter when he has nothing to lose by taking the fight. He gets an extra pay day, a chance to self-promote, a chance to go straight from MW contender to LHW contender whilst bypassing the gate keepers and he gets in Dana's good books to boot.

This is a job where three losses in a row can be the end of your career. It's a sport where the challengers for GOAT seem to be attempting to stretch the period between fights further and further apart to avoid losing. It's a sport where lower level guys are fighting to win rather than for entertainment. At the end of the day the business has been set up to benefit and reward winners. You might be able to hang around as a mid-level guy if you are entertaining at the expense of losing more often, but chances are you won't be earning the big bucks or main eventing cards people are paying for.

When the biggest rewards go to those that win, there really isn't much incentive to ever put yourself in a position that makes it feel possible that you will lose. If Jones felt that it was too short notice to change his mind-set and game-plan then I can't see how it's an issue. GSP is still living down a loss to Serra in every discussion that involves P4P or GOAT status. My point is that losses stick and do tarnish your legacy, when you live, die and are paid by your W/L record it only makes sense to protect it.

[Noah]

It saddens me that I'm only just finding out about this now.

I'd spent most of the weekend getting hyped up for a card that's now been cancelled and had already been so since before the weekend even started!

[Walker]

Nobody's not angry at Dana, the issue is that Dana went through with a last-ditch effort to salvage the show and Jones said "lol, no." Dana knows he screwed up, but the company would have lost money without Jones. As a result, what's the point paying the fighters if you're using fake money? Dana made a business decision which resulted from a scheduling error partially his fault. He can't reasonably say "yeah we'll lose money on the show but we'll do it anyway for these fans and these fighters" as he isn't a dictator with nobody to answer to. Dana's role in this debacle is purely because of the harsh realities of business. Jones' role in this is purely due to ego and selfishness.

This is what I'm talking about. Jon Jones and his camp make a decision based on what they believe is good business and he is called a dick for doing so without thinking of how it affects the fighters beneath him. Meanwhile, Dana White (who I am using as collective of the UFC decision makers) decides that without Jones the card isn't worth putting on, but is excused because ... I guess because he's not Jon Jones.

Dana and the UFC could have salvaged the event and put on a decent enough show. It probably would have made a loss, but you don't know. If they aren't willing to take a risk in this situation when it is their responsibility to look after their contracted fighters then why the hell should Jon Jones be expected to take a risk?

You can argue all you want about Jon Jones the person and I'd probably agree with you, but when we are talking about this situation where all the blame is laser-guided towards Jon Jones because of his personality it is beyond ridiculous.

To use your example, if Kobe Bryant or a Wayne Rooney couldn't play the rest of the team still plays, they all still get paid and the spectators all still get a show. If the fans are pissed that they are not getting to see the star then so what, that is what happens in sports sometimes, get used to it.

[SeanDMan]

It's quite easy to be honest.

You make being wrong a life decision don't you.

[Gazz]

Can you point our two things for me please?

1) You can not compare the UFC to football/Basketball, fighting is not a team sport, the equivalent would be boxing and if one of the main event competitors were to become injured in the main event of a big boxing card, then the card would be cancelled.

2) The reason that there is the blame aimed at Jon Jones is that Dana White and the UFC did their job. A competitor became injured and they searched around for a viable, short-notice replacement, which they did in Chael Sonnen, however Jon Jones decided to say no, in spite of the hard work of others, which is very much within his rights. This is perceived to be incredibly selfish for all the reasons that have already been mentioned, but can be re-iterated. It has cost fans money in travel and hotels, fighters money for their fights, the money the fighters have spent on their camps (Which could be as much as $30,000 in some cases) and fans are now disappointed as the emotional attachment they have had to the event has been wasted.

Now I am not placing the blame squarely at Jon Jones' feet, but a lot of people did everything in their power to make this card happen, but Jones' didn't and this is the reason people are feeling insulted and disappointed, because it feels like Jones' has decided that his record and legacy is more important than anything else, which to him it may be, but to a lot of other people, it is not, believing the needs of the many out way the needs of the one. So people do not like Jon Jones, and people have every right to feel let down, disappointed and angry at somebody who has made, and will make a lot of money because of the fans, as at the end of the day, if it wasn't for the fan interest there would not be a UFC for him to fight in and he would not have the likes of an endorsement deal from Nike.

[Quom]

Prove it. Seriously, somehow prove that without the mismanaged UFC featuring a boss who prides himself on showing reporters him gambling over a million dollars on a single hand of online poker that MMA wouldn't exist in some form. This is a man/company which got super lucky through TUF. It was launching everything at the wall and praying something stuck (which it did spectacularly).

Beyond which, Jon Jones may owe something to the sport but he owes absolutely fuck all to Dana White. Dana may have provided the hoops but it was Jon Jones who leapt through them all on the way up. If the UFC regrets putting so much air time to promoting Jon Jones at the expense of others, then it's a dear lesson for UFC and has nothing to do with Jon Jones.

The sport is a fucking sport. If you said to Man City 'oh on short notice we have changed your championship game and you will no longer be playing Chelsea you will be playing Barcelona' I don't think anyone would blame Man City from not playing the game.

This wasn't a fight, it was a championship fight involving a fighter who is fresh off inking a lucrative deal effecting not only him but the entire sport and all fighters (since it should help legitimise the sport further and open other sponsorship avenues for other fighters).

Your argument holds no weight. Jon Jones owes nothing to any other fighter. If someone agreed to appear at a show as a guest speaker, then found out that the theme had changed entirely as had the other top guest speaker, if they decided to pull out as the show was no longer what they agreed to I wouldn't blame the speaker, I would hold the organising company responsible for being unable to find two suitable replacements on short notice. I would also assume the company to pay all of the staff they contracted for that event. Not paying the fighters their appearance fee is the same as a fighter getting injured in the build up to a PPV and still expecting to be paid. If I'm at work and there is a black out and I'm sent home, I still get paid. If the boss knocks everyone off at 3PM on a Friday? We all get paid until 5PM. The point is that a company cancelling something should be at their cost, not at the expense of the people who have paid money to appear.

Fighting for the fans earns you nothing. Ask Jorge Gurgel how much fighting for the fans earns him, ask Chris Leben, ask Leonard Garcia. The point is that there are very few fighters who go out and fight a super fan friendly style who make it and stay at the top of the card for long. Fans like winners. Fedor is a fat, ugly, uncharismatic man, yet there exists MMA fans who would pay to sniff his shit because he was for so long considered GOAT whilst crushing cans. Winners get the bitches and fighter doing it for the fans or to excite people stay in the first half of the card. Beyond which Spider offered to fight but Dana had already cancelled the show, so he hadn't already explored anywhere close to all avenues. Jones pulled out and Dana shat the bed and took his ball and went home. boo-hoo.

[SeanDMan]

Are you seriously arguing that Jon Jones has done more for MMA, and is more important to the UFC, than Dana White? I mean, I know he's cuter, but come on.

[Plubby]

Your entire argument has shifted to that Dana White shot for the stars and missed, and that Jon Jones owes nothing to him.

Both of these are true, but I feel they're irrelevant and the reasons why make me very mad when I look at this from a broad scope.

What kind of a fucking world do we live in when people only do shit out of obligation?! Go the extra mile for someone. Try operating in karma/effort surplus, not debt. Fuck that attitude and fuck the jaded cunts who carry it on. (It should be noted that I feel Quom is arguing that this is what Jones' camp feels and it is not indicative of how Quom feels. I do not count Quom among these people, but it would seem I do Greg Jackson and whoever else advised Jones to take this course of action. I truly believe that Jones' natural instinct would be to take the fight, so I also don't yet count him among them.)

I know it's a meme and everything, but this is literally why we can't have nice things. Because no one will do them unless they feel like they have to.

[Quom]

Are you seriously arguing that Jon Jones has done more for MMA, and is more important to the UFC, than Dana White? I mean, I know he's cuter, but come on.

No, I am arguing that Jon Jones 'owes' anything to anyone it's to MMA, not to the UFC, Dana White or Zuffa.

My other argument is that Dana fucked up, shit the bed and canned the card without exploring all (or many depending on who you listen to) possibilities to keep the PPV on. There is a huge difference between 'Jon Jones pulled out and I literally called every fighter in my rolodex who may have been able to offer enough value to keep the card' and 'Henderson was injured, Chael would have stepped in, Jones wasn't down for that so I canned the lot'. I mean when you have a champion in your own promotion saying they were willing to step in (and had left a message saying as much and confirmed by Dana) then the card falling through suddenly doesn't seem all down to Jones.

A card should never hinge on one fight, especially not when loads of fighters keep getting injured. It's just insane and something I would expect from a start up (or Affliction ) not from the UFC.

Dana may have been good for the growth of the sport, but on this he has been dead wrong and he seems complacent if he couldn't even be bothered trying to sort out something worth seeing.

Your entire argument has shifted to that Dana White shot for the stars and missed, and that Jon Jones owes nothing to him.

Both of these are true, but I feel they're irrelevant and the reasons why make me very mad when I look at this from a broad scope.

What kind of a fucking world do we live in when people only do shit out of obligation?! Go the extra mile for someone. Try operating in karma/effort surplus, not debt. Fuck that attitude and fuck the jaded cunts who carry it on. (It should be noted that I feel Quom is arguing that this is what Jones' camp feels and it is not indicative of how Quom feels. I do not count Quom among these people, but it would seem I do Greg Jackson and whoever else advised Jones to take this course of action. I truly believe that Jones' natural instinct would be to take the fight, so I also don't yet count him among them.)

I know it's a meme and everything, but this is literally why we can't have nice things. Because no one will do them unless they feel like they have to.

Your argument makes no sense to me. There is business and personal. The majority of business owners will state that implementing projects for employee well-being is lost money. They will argue that increasing wages lowers their profit margin and are totally unable to reconcile all data showing that both of these things actually increase profit, output and employee retention.

Your boss is rarely your friend. You are just a thing that helps them to generate income. There is no bending over backwards, especially not if your boss is the type who upon cancelling a card informs you 'stiff titties, no fight no pay.'

[Walker]

I'm perfectly fine with people calling Jones an arrogant prick and everything, I agree with that sentiment, but this keeps shifting to an argument of how Jones is to blame for the card failing. He signed up to fight Dan Henderson, that couldn't happen so there is no obligation to fight. That is the black and white of it. Any and all blame on Jones is null and void after that fact. Dana White and the UFC decided to cancel the event rather than take a hit, evidently they don't care about fighters and fans as much as people seem to believe either in that case.

If we are going to continue discussing the personality defects of Jon Jones then we've pretty much said everything, but it isn't on him to provide for the other fighters and he didn't make the call to cancel the event so you may as well stop acting like he did.

And no, I don't believe Dana did everything in his power to keep the event alive. He had all the same fights minus the main event and several guys asking to fight instead. Even if he couldn't find a new main event he could have still put on the event. There was literally nothing stopping him other than his own personality and corporate greed.

[Benjamin]

Is it really greed that you don't want to continue a project that will almost certainly result in a loss?

[Quom]

Yes, because you want people to feel safe buying tickets to your future events.