***spoilers*** UFC News and Discussion Thread

[EddieG]

As much as I love Bader, that match scares the shit out of me.

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

Rampage wins via murder.

In all seriousness, I cant see Rampage losing that fight.

[Rich]

Rampage wins via murder.

In all seriousness, I cant see Rampage losing that fight.

In all seriousness when was the last time we saw Rampage really open up on some one and win in any convincing fashion?

The answer is his last fight against Wanderlei, 3 years ago.

I think this is a good match up and Bader has every chance.

[Cactus Drags]

Rampage wins via murder.

In all seriousness, I cant see Rampage losing that fight.

In all seriousness when was the last time we saw Rampage really open up on some one and win in any convincing fashion?

The answer is his last fight against Wanderlei, 3 years ago.

I think this is a good match up and Bader has every chance.

I was going to come in and say something to that effect, but I figure I'm too casual a fan to argue my point much. He doesn't seem to be taking fights that seriously anymore, or not training hard/well enough maybe?

I certainly don't think it's a sure thing either way, hopefully the right Rampage turns up, would be a hell of a fight.

[gunnar hendershow]

I just don't know how much fire Rampage has left, he's got so many other options laid out for him when he's done with MMA so I've started to doubt how much he's trying these days. Then again, he might be due for an old-fashioned Rampage match where he just pounds Bader into the ground.

[EddieG]

Chris Leben suspended for one year

[Gazz]

Painkillers apparently.

[Guest mr. potato head]

When Meltzer first started writing for Yahoo and claimed to have covered UFC from the beginning, I kinda questioned it and wondered if maybe he posted show reviews or something. Turns out it's been a pretty big subject in the retro Observers that go up regularly, including this piece from September 1994, after UFC 3, which I find immensely interesting in hindsight:

What was eventful this past week was the early estimates of the buy rate for Ultimate Fight Championships III, a supposed shoot street fighting tournament matching up several different practitioners of various martial arts, including one pro wrestler who was heavily featured in the pre-show hype. The pro wrestler, Ken Wayne Shamrock, was called a shootfighter rather than wrestler on the broadcast because of an attempt to avoid any connection between that product and the negative reputation in regard to legitimacy that pro wrestling has.

Early returns indicate UFC III did a 0.65 buy rate (150,000 buys), or more orders than all but one (Flair vs. Hogan in Orlando) WCW PPV over the past two years (the WCW shows actually grossed more money because they charge $24.95 instead of $14.95 but also spend tons more to put on a show). The figure approached the buys WWF did with King of the Ring. That's with no television, either basic or cable.

That's with no basic television advertising and no major company pumping millions of dollars into marketing the event and the personalities. That's with no Hulk Hogans or Undertakers, let alone Ric Flairs, Bret Harts and Stings. Even the first UWFI PPV show, which drew a surprising amount of buys even though it wasn't a major financial success, took out a decent amount of television advertising on sports shows. This came almost exclusively from hype on the PPV preview channels.

What this means in regard to pro wrestling, if anything, is unclear, but it does mean UFC has become both a significant and profitable part of the PPV scene, the first made-for-PPV sports event to fit that bill, similar to how American Gladiators became a take-off on pro wrestling as a television vehicle and has surpassed pro wrestling as far as syndicated television ratings go. Nearly everyone expects the next UFC, on 12/16 in Tulsa, to top last weeks as far as buy rate goes. WCW officials are trying to use that shocking figure as a strong sign for its PPV show with AAA/IWC on 11/6, but to borrow a cliche, that's using the success of selling apples to one audience to have anything to do with the success in selling hot dogs to a completely different audience. Simply put, the spanish speaking audience they need to draw from probably doesn't spend a lot of time watching the english preview channel. Really, this has virtually no impact on the American pro wrestling scene unless the UFC promoters get television (word is they're trying, which many, including myself feel would be a mistake because it would overexpose a unique product) and become a hit, in which case, as happened in Japan with the success of UWF, the inevitable evolution would be to incorporate one or two submission maneuvers into pro wrestling and perhaps, as happened with both All and New Japan off the success of UWF, lead to clean finishes and stars doing jobs, which also led to major increases in house show attendance for both groups. That isn't going to happen overnight here, and more likely than not will never happen here at all due to cultural differences (Japanese wrestling has a tendency to copy what is successful elsewhere and repackage it for its audience, American wrestling companies have more of a tendency to be ignorant of what other companies are doing successfully and just go in their own direction). To follow what happened in Japan with UWF's impact on traditional pro wrestling, first something like UFC would have to get over big to the general public, which at this point is light years away from happening and never will happen if it is strictly a PPV and home video attraction as opposed to a big arena seller or television ratings getter.

The more interesting and applicable speculation has to do with what success and money will do for UFC.

The big question wrestling fans and the public would be interested regarding this product is, "Is it really a shoot?" You're not going to find the answer here because I don't know. I can speculate about it to death, but that still won't give you anymore insight as to the answer to the most important question regarding the product. What I do know is, if this takes off, it will be put under greater scrutiny, and if it isn't a shoot, it will become apparent very quickly because all it will take is one disgruntled performer who believes he was shortchanged on money or not given a fair shake or gets mad because he's asked to put someone over, and that will happen, to answer the question if the answer is negative. If that's the case, that is a genuine threat to the group's popularity. If it is a shoot, somebody is going to get hurt. Well, people already have, but when I say hurt I mean seriously hurt. If that happens, it'll fall victim to its actual drawing lure. The PPV distributors, who have already clamped down hard on blood in pro wrestling, will refuse to carry the shows, and at that point, it'll be dead. If it started as a shoot, and still is today, can it stay a shoot? Profit and money are tremendous lures to set things up and build up grudge matches. And there are ancillary motives. The Gracie Family has made a name for itself in the martial arts world and in both of the world of PPV and home video (The home video of UFC #2 has become one of the most rented sports videos in the country, beating out all pro wrestling videos over the past few months). Once the name is made and success is achieved, they can sell more videos, open more training centers, and teach more students and make more money. But losing convincingly to a fighter from another style of martial art would hurt business. There is a tremendous financial lure to protecting ones business. While most legit combat fighters, whether they be boxers, wrestlers or whatever, really aren't afraid of getting hurt a little and pretty much expect it and some do thrive on it, nobody wants to be pounded on by an expert puncher with bare-knuckle punches to the head while the guy is on top of you punching straight down. The remarks by Shamrock and Masakatsu Funaki to the Japanese press after the show tell you that. Even the Gracie Family, which promotes its fighting system as the most effective street-fighting system in the world, on its own videos, speaks of street fighting itself in a very negative tone. Also, if it becomes a circuit of fighters with name recognition entering tournaments, ie, if this same basic crew that is "over," Shamrock, Gracie, Kimo, Harold Howard, etc. becomes the focal point, sooner or later there is a chance, just because human nature being what it is, that the guys themselves will figure out ways to avoid getting punched bare-knuckle in the face on their own. They could agree to not punch each other in the face but still shoot in that the winners aren't predetermined, but they agree to limit the anything goes style of fighting. Or they could work together and book programs to save their egos and the Gracie family outside business interests that UFC has fueled.

Ironically, the 9/17 Pro Wrestling Torch was the first thing I've read to question the legitimacy of UFC III. Wade Keller wrote that from the start there have been those skeptical of whether UFC fights are real, and said UFC III gave credibility to their arguments saying that slow-motion videotape replays expose punches that miss just enough to still look good. He claimed skeptics say the preliminary fights are real, just mismatches set up because the promoters know who can beat who, and that the top matches are works to create storylines and Keller claimed the storylines thus far back this up. This would apparently be similar to Pancrase Pro Wrestling, which is affiliated with this group not only in regard to Shamrock, but that they are the video distributors for UFC in Japan. In Pancrase, which has a strong cult following in Japan, some of the matches certainly look to be shoots, far moreso than RINGS and UWFI, the other two groups who claim to be but are readily apparent from viewing that isn't the case. There is nothing wrong with that as UWFI on a per-show basis (since they only run monthly) is the best drawing promotion in the world so in a very tough business, you can't knock financial success, but while they concentrate on realistic moves, anyone looking closely can see it's a tighter more realistic style of pro wrestling, whereas Pancrase does look like athletic competition, a combination of amateur wrestling, sambo, slap-fighting and savate. Judging from the results of the main matches and how the three top stars in the group (Funaki, Shamrock and Minoru Suzuki) routinely trade wins back-and-forth, occasionally put others over to create new names, but seem to always follow a loss with a major win as to not be buried), it appears the matches on top are booked with winners predetermined. Certainly the brutality of the 5/31 card at Budokan Hall was far more than the shows since that time. There were several serious injuries at Budokan, that will keep wrestlers out of action for a lengthy period of time. With a promotion with so few wrestlers and even fewer with any name value, that threatens the company's survival, not to mention the health of its employees. Since that time the blows haven't looked as devastating and correspondingly, there haven't been the serious injuries.

I'll run down a few arguments and comments I've received from various individuals when trying to find out more on this subject and you can draw your own conclusions:

The shows are put together by the Gracie Family, in particular Royce Gracie's older brother Rorion Gracie (all these first R's in the Gracie family first names are pronounced as if they are H's), who also markets the family videotapes of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, a style founded by father Relio and the family claims to be undefeated in mixed matches (against fighters from other styles) in 65 years. The potential of conflict of interest and judging from who is the star of the show immediately would arouse suspicion in anyone with a background in viewing pro wrestling

If the main lure is profit and there is a degree of working, why aren't Masakatsu Funaki and Minoru Suzuki in there other than it is a shoot and they won't be able to whip the guys? It opens up tremendous amounts of business in Japan, which is for gimmicks and videotapes, a more potentially profitable market than the U.S. and we know they'd have no problems doing jobs as long as the favor would on occasion be returned. It also would give Funaki, who is a great athlete with a great look who could get over in this country with the right promotion, a chance to be another marketable name for UFC not to mention greatly improve the Gracie family's visibility in Japan.

If they aren't shooting, how come it looks so much more convincing compared to RINGS, UWFI, Mark Gastineau boxing matches and less-than-real karate fights and even Pancrase? They are all out there with the idea of making the matches look as realistic as possible, and in most cases use guys with far more experience, yet visually you can see they're not what they claim. How can this crew with less experience be so good?

If they are shooting, are they picking their opponents to make sure nobody that tough enters? Certainly it can be questioned that the tournaments have lacked any 275+ pound monster heavyweight fighters that pro wrestling fans or the general public visually would tend to think of as being tough guys. While they used a 600-pounder at the last show, he lacked both skill and mobility and appeared a sitting duck for a smaller man with quicker hand speed. Most of the guys have been in the 175-230 range. Certainly there is a point where perfect technique is limited in real-life application when the size and power of the foe is vastly superior, just as there are instances in combat sports in history where smaller man have prevailed over much larger men due to toughness and superior technique. The lack of a Gary Albright or Scott Norton-sized guy with a real combat background since the start has been the claim that the Gracies won't let anyone in that they think can beat Royce. One person involved with wrestling attempted to put wrestler Steve Williams, who many would say is the toughest active pro wrestler, into the show and claimed that when he investigated the possibility he was told specifically that the matches are all shoots but that they aren't going to let anyone in that Gracie's family doesn't know Royce can handle

If that's the case, what happened at the last show? A former confidante of the family, who is now on the outs with them over business differences and hates them, still claims the UFC's are real and that they aren't afraid of size since Gracie has routinely snuffed three 300-pounders in a row with ease behind-the-scenes. His claim is that Gracie was sick the weeks before the show and dizzy and wanted to pull out but that so much of the promotion was based on him that he pretty much had to appear. Since it was a shoot rather than a work and because his foe was a tough guy, that weakness turned it into a real dogfight. However, he, who has sparred with all of them regularly, claims the Gracie who is the toughest and most dangerous is not Royce, but older brother Rixson (who was the winner at the first UFC event in Japan several weeks ago).

The results of the last show came off awfully well to promote a next PPV show. Gracie never lost. Neither did Shamrock. Steve Jennum was the new champion. Kimo lost but got over bigger than anyone. Keith Hackney beat the brains out of a guy nearly the size of Andre the Giant and never lost. Harold Howard claims he's developed a technique that can beat Gracie, but never had a chance to face him. All can come back next time.

Nobody would work a show with so much dead time. The last hour of the show from a presentation standpoint was a disaster with the lack of communication, injuries and lack of matches. If there was working involved, they'd never put on a show where the announcers had to kill nearly an hour of PPV time. It's reminiscent of the aftermath of the 1976 Ali vs. Inoki match. For those who aren't aware of it, it was the most deadly dull 15 round match ever with Inoki crawling on his back trying to kick Ali's legs out from under him and staying far away from punches. When it was over, everyone screamed since it was a draw (since neither man did anything of significance offensively) and promoted by wrestling promoters, it must have been a work. One of the reasons I knew watching it that it wasn't, is that if it was a work, it wouldn't be so awful. As history has borne out years later, the original idea was to be a work but Ali wouldn't agree to do the job and the two couldn't figure out a way out and too much money was on the table even though there were numerous threats in the days before the fight for it to be canceled over that fact. It was the most real match of Inoki's life.

We already know Shamrock has been involved in working. Gerard Gordeau (a finalist in UFC I) was involved with pro wrestling (a main event with Akira Maeda for UWF). Renco Parduel (UFC II semifinal loser to Gracie) is a Gordeau protege and has since appeared for Pancrase (and lost to Suzuki on a recent show). Kimo came right out of a pro wrestling stereotype.

[gunnar hendershow]

That was a real interesting read, it's amazing to think how much times have changed yet it's so easy to see how the popularity of MMA was born directly out of interest in pro wrestling and Pancrase.

[Benjamin]

Ellenberger versus Sanchez for the first UFC on Fuel show. Looks like a great match-up.

Alves versus Kampmann for UFC on FX 2. Another great match.

Actually, looking at it, the Welterweight division is stacked like fuck. It's just the GSP has beaten the shit out of everyone in it. But with Diaz, Fitch, Alves, Koscheck, Condit, Ellenberger, Shields, Sanchez, Kampmann, Hathaway, McDonald, I'd say the Welterweight division is just as deep as the Lightweight one when it comes to contenders.

[TEOL]

Also, if it becomes a circuit of fighters with name recognition entering tournaments, ie, if this same basic crew that is "over," Shamrock, Gracie, Kimo, Harold Howard, etc. becomes the focal point

:lmao:

[DavidMarrio]

God bless you Michael Bisping.

All fighters make weight for the finale tomorrow, Bisping has an hour to cut a 1/4 pound. Miller tells the crowd to boo Bisping only for him to go

"I couldn't give a f*ck about getting love. All I care about is smashing this dickhead's face in F*ck you all." then flips off the crowd.

[Rich]

People ask me why I like Bisping. The answer, for ever and always will be, he is a glorious wanker.

[DavidMarrio]

We doing a chat for the finale or?

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

No clue if anybody mentioned it in here yet but just in case, it's on FX for anybody in the UK. Starts at 1 AM.

Loving the card and am quite pumped for the two final fights.

[DavidMarrio]

If UFC don't use this for tonights fight, I won't be happy.....

[Your Mom]

I hate Bisping so much. That night he got the hammer dropped on him was one of the most glorious nights in UFC history

[Beefus of Bethesda]

I hate Bisping so much. That night he got the hammer dropped on him was one of the most glorious nights in UFC history

[SeanDMan]

Bwahaha, that's awesome.

[Beefus of Bethesda]

That was one of my favorite Bisping KO photoshops I've seen, thanks to the awesome guys at Bloody Elbow for that one.. and now for some more photoshops because like Lays you can't have just one.

Bisping's first meal after being slammed by the almighty Fistos.

For the Wrestling Fan

Bisping making his best impression of a member of the Animal Kingdom

There are many more but I choose the best three available.

Man was it hard watching Bisping win, thankfully he even said himself he isn't deserving of a title shot.. bring on the Chael/Bisping match thats supposed to happen.