The Scottish Football thread

[Hobo]

It'd be awesome if Celtic failed to win the league now.

[Colly]

If S Club 7 and S Club Juniors merged would they have enough members to be S Club 12? I'd pay to see that.

[Grounded Wingman]

It'd be awesome if Celtic failed to win the league now.

It would help if the other teams had the ambition to win it - from what I've heard this week they are all saying that Rangers' demise means they can aim to finish 2nd now.

It's part of Scottish football's problem - clubs just aiming to be the 'best of the rest' in the league, and the national team happy to lose as long as they don't get embarrassed and the fans can have a party.

[Crybaby Bunting]

For those who missed it, Stewart Regen's letter to Division 1-3 Football chairmen. Try to see how far you can get.

Dear all,

Many thanks for your contribution and support over the last two weeks in trying to deliver a programme of change that will move Scottish football forward whilst addressing the need to deal with the Rangers matter with integrity and in line with our own values as an organisation.

I was hugely encouraged with where we got to last night on a long and tiring phone call and I thank all of you for your efforts to move this issue forward.

I thought it would be helpful if I summarised where I think we are:

1. The Rangers Football Club will be relegated to the 1st Division of the SFL with immediate effect and will be replaced in the SPL by Dundee FC.

2. The television rights for Rangers FC matches in the SFL will be purchased by the SPL for the sum of £1m as a one-off fee for the season 2012/2013.

3. The two leagues will merge into a single league body – The Scottish Professional Football League – effective season 2013/14 – with a working party set up immediately involving representatives from the SPL, SFL and (if required) the Scottish FA to plan the integration of the two bodies – people, rules, rebranding, commercial considerations and so on.

4. A new Board of Directors will be appointed to govern the single league. The make up of this Board will consist of an Independent Chairman, CEO, 3 representatives from the Premier League, 2 representatives from the Championship/Leagues 1 & 2 and 2 Independent Non-Executive Directors.

5. Play-offs will be introduced immediately with the first matches taking place at the end of the coming season 2012/2013.

6. Enhanced parachute payments will be implemented from the end of the season 2012/2013 to soften the landing for club(s) relegated from the Premier League.

7. A revised all-through distribution model will be put in place to provide: a) An all-through distribution model for clubs 1-22 and a minimum guarantee for 20 clubs in Leagues 1 & 2, equivalent to what they would earn under the current settlement agreement.

8. A Pyramid System will be put in place which open up the bottom of League 2 effective from the end of season 2013/2014 with the first opportunity for promoted clubs to enter the league being 2014/15 thus allowing for licensing to take place.

9. Consolidation below the Third Division to take place to create a Lowland & Highland League structure effective 2014/15 with appropriate play-offs and promotion/relegation to be put in place. Clubs to be briefed that the previous season 2013/2014 will involve the opportunity to enter play-offs for the first time.

In terms of actions/timings I think the following needs to happen in this coming week:

A) A joint statement today from all 3 bodies confirming that productive discussions have taken place on a new blueprint for Scottish football. Consultation will continue over the next two weeks with a view to clubs getting together week commencing 2nd July to try and agree the way forward. (D Broadfoot to provide this and circulate to DL/ND for approval)

B) Rod P / Jim B to finalise the all-through financial model by Wednesday this week latest.

C) Neil / David to finalise the detail on Governance, Commercials and Play-Offs (ideally Monday/Tuesday) and incorporate these, plus the financials in B) above into a legally binding Heads of Terms ‘draft’ for presentation to each league body w/c 2nd July.

D) DL to organise SFL Board Meeting w/c 25th June to gain buy-in to the plan and also arrange an all club meeting w/c 2nd July

E) ND to gain support from SPL Clubs 28th June

F) SFL Clubs Meeting to be planned for 3rd July

G) SPL Club Meeting to be planned for 4th July

H) Scottish FA Board to sign off on the final plan post 4th July. Subject to approval all bodies (including Newco) to sign legal documentation.

I) Agree joint communication strategy

J) In parallel to A-D above, could Rod Petrie please brief Charles Green confidentially on the discussions from a Scottish FA perspective so that there are ‘no surprises’ and there is a general acceptance of the plan plus all of the other conditions discussed e.g. transfer embargo, fines, repayment of football debt, waiving rights to legal challenge, acceptance of relegation and so on.

K) Andrew to ensure our check list of disclosures relating to Newco and Fit & Proper Person criteria are delivered by 2nd july. The Board will need these plus the Heads of Terms above in order to complete this plan.

The Scottish FA Board have agreed to provide a one-off restructuring budget of £1m on condition the above plan is delivered.

I hope this covers everything.

Speak soon….now off to the airport!

Regards

Stewart

[METALMAN]

It'd be awesome if Celtic failed to win the league now.

It would help if the other teams had the ambition to win it - from what I've heard this week they are all saying that Rangers' demise means they can aim to finish 2nd now.

It's part of Scottish football's problem - clubs just aiming to be the 'best of the rest' in the league, and the national team happy to lose as long as they don't get embarrassed and the fans can have a party.

In recent years the likes of Aberdeen, Motherwell and Hearts and have almost run themselves into the ground trying to get on a par with Rangers Celtic. It's hardly a lack of ambition. It's a lack of means.

[Grounded Wingman]

It'd be awesome if Celtic failed to win the league now.

It would help if the other teams had the ambition to win it - from what I've heard this week they are all saying that Rangers' demise means they can aim to finish 2nd now.

It's part of Scottish football's problem - clubs just aiming to be the 'best of the rest' in the league, and the national team happy to lose as long as they don't get embarrassed and the fans can have a party.

In recent years the likes of Aberdeen, Motherwell and Hearts and have almost run themselves into the ground trying to get on a par with Rangers Celtic. It's hardly a lack of ambition. It's a lack of means.

I understand your point, but I don't think the clubs have used their means well enough anyway and, apart from Hearts for one season, none of the 3 teams mentioned talked of themselves as title challengers.

Logically, Celtic and Rangers can offer more money to buy players from clubs and more wages to entice them, but they can only play eleven players at a time, and let's not kid ourselves into thinking that either side has been awash with top class individuals in recent years. Hearts proved that a title challenge is achievable, before Burley left.

You can see in other leagues that they are not always won by the richest sides. Montpellier won the French league last year, AZ and Twente have recently won the Eredivisie, Wolfsburg and Stuttgart the Bundesliga.

Even in the less rich leagues - Molde, Stabaek and Brann have won in Norway, when common sense dictates that Rosenborg should walk that league. Genk won the Belgian league ahead of Anderlecht, Club Brugges and Standard Liege. Bursaspor won the Turkish league in 2010.

I just think that the first step into making something possible is to believe that it's possible. That doesn't mean living outwith your economic capabilities, it just means maximizing them and daring to aim big.

[MDK]

I can't wait for the new FM, I know who I'll be playing as

[METALMAN]

The difference is that while the likes of Montpellier winning was surprising, it wasn't that surprising. Montpellier had a decent team. That guy Giroud could walk into the team of any other club in that league.

That's not really the case in Scotland, where the gap between Rangers and Celtic and the others was much wider. Plus there's the issue of demographios. It's only natural that Rangers and Celtic would dominate when perhaps two fifths of the population of Scotland would call one of them their local club - not to mention the legions of gloryhunters.

It leaves the other clubs in a difficult position. Perhaps the Edinburgh clubs should pull their weight a bit more, but Edinburgh isn't a football city in the way that Glasgow is, and it doesn't sprawl across half of Scotland like Glasgow melts into Lanarkshire. Same goes for Dundee and Aberdeen.

As for the other clubs, they're just from towns (Inverness isn't actually a city ), and in some cases, really small towns. They have no base upon which they can build any form of serious, sustainable competition, especially in the face of the Old Firm's constant sellouts and overseas marketing presence. Yes, Hearts gave it a shot a few years back, but that was when Vladimir Romanov came and started spending lots of money, and when he stopped, Hearts could barely pay their players.

Any attempt to blame the problems in Scottish football on the clubs outside the Old Firm are ridiculous. Those are the clubs that play the game in the right spirit, the clubs that voted Rangers out of the league despite the dire consequences it might hold for them. These are the clubs that don't base their existence upon hatred.

On the other hand, Rangers and Celtic have spent the last few years bullying the other clubs in Scotland. They have conspired with TV companies and sponsors to create deals that drastically favour them to the expense of the other clubs. Whenever a promising young player is unearthed at Kilmarnock or Motherwell, chances are that he'll both off to Rangers or Celtic sooner rather than later, more often than not in receipt for ill-gotten money.

What do you expect the other clubs to do? Especially if at least one of them was actively cheating to maintain their position.

That being said, it's not that bad. The league was a bit of a dead bogey, but the cup competitions were endlessly exciting - Celtic beaten finalists in one, no old firm sides in the other. It could be worse.

[Adam]

I can't wait for the new FM, I know who I'll be playing as

Ross County?

[Hobo]

I can't wait for the new FM, I know who I'll be playing as

Ross County?

Athlone Town?

[Berober]

Greenock Morton?

[Grounded Wingman]

Any attempt to blame the problems in Scottish football on the clubs outside the Old Firm are ridiculous. Those are the clubs that play the game in the right spirit, the clubs that voted Rangers out of the league despite the dire consequences it might hold for them. These are the clubs that don't base their existence upon hatred.

On the other hand, Rangers and Celtic have spent the last few years bullying the other clubs in Scotland. They have conspired with TV companies and sponsors to create deals that drastically favour them to the expense of the other clubs. Whenever a promising young player is unearthed at Kilmarnock or Motherwell, chances are that he'll both off to Rangers or Celtic sooner rather than later, more often than not in receipt for ill-gotten money.

What do you expect the other clubs to do? Especially if at least one of them was actively cheating to maintain their position.

That being said, it's not that bad. The league was a bit of a dead bogey, but the cup competitions were endlessly exciting - Celtic beaten finalists in one, no old firm sides in the other. It could be worse.

I'm not blaming the problems of Scottish football on the non Old Firm clubs. In fact, it'll be interesting to see how Celtic react to any SPL re-structure proposals without the Old Firm buddy system to help them manipulate the 11-1 voting nonsense, for a few years at least.

I know that Killie lost some good players to Rangers over the years (Boyd, Naismith). Hell, I remember when Saintees lost Momo Sylla to Celtic a number of years back, pretty much because he played a blinder when we beat Rangers, but clubs can still put good teams together, and Neil Lennon hasn't done much shopping in Scotland for players since he took charge.

I remember, in my younger days, thinking that if a team can put together a squad that can beat the 9 non Old Firm clubs most of the time then they'd be challenging for the title regardless of results against Rangers or Celtic.

The cups have been good, because Rangers and Celtic have been getting worse over time (it's not as if Larsson and Laudrup quality players are in Scotland anymore). That means there is all the more reason to believe you can beat them. I just think some clubs should extend that belief beyond one off games and into the league overall.

Also - it's not clubs like Motherwell, Kilmarnock, St Mirren and St Johnstone that need to take a look at themselves. It's clubs like Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs.

[Crybaby Bunting]

The 12th SPL team is Dundee.

[Lineker]

Second Division side East Fife will face lower-league opposition in the first round of the Scottish Communities League Cup on 4 August in the form of Rangers.

[Crybaby Bunting]

[Lineker]

The new Rangers' participation in Scottish football next season is not certain despite accepting a 12-month transfer ban from the Scottish FA.

Sevco Scotland, which now owns Rangers' assets after the old club headed for liquidation, needs SFA membership.

But it must also reach agreement with the Scottish Premier League.

The SPL, which rejected the new club's application to stay in the top flight, wants further sanctions and a share of Rangers' Division Three media rights.

Administrator Duff and Phelps, which still controls the oldco Rangers, Sevco, the Scottish Football League, the SPL and SFA must all agree the package to allow the new Rangers to play in the coming season, starting on 28 July in the Ramsdens Cup away to Brechin City.

Sevco chief executive Charles Green had argued that a transfer ban would prevent the club competing as manager Ally McCoist has lost many of his players.

And, following a week of discussions, the SFA released a statement saying that Rangers had now accepted a transfer embargo, which would begin on 1 September and end on 31 August next year.

That would mean Rangers could make signings in the current transfer window but not in January or next summer, but Malcolm Murray, chairman of the new Rangers, stressed that no agreement had yet been signed.

"The choice is stark - take sanctions or risk not playing football at all," he said.

"We do not wish to gamble with the club's future. So, under duress, we have taken the difficult decision to accept some sanctions in order to move forward.

"A delayed transfer ban would be a bitter pill to swallow and will only be agreed to if the alternative is no football.

"We also regret that the any agreement with the SFA appears not to have the support of the SPL and, as such, it still wishes to impose further sanctions on the club for the actions of previous regimes despite already voting us out of its league.

"This is truly astounding to everyone at the club who is now in charge of rebuilding Rangers from Division Three, particularly as the SPL are still trying to benefit from our media rights."

Murray, though, appeared to suggest that accepting sanctions from the SPL for the use of controversial Employee Benefit Trusts to pay players may be necessary.

"Whilst we are deeply frustrated that the club and the new owners will have to accept some punishments for the sins of previous regimes, we are at the point where we have to move forward and get back playing football," he said.

"We will all continue to work hard over the coming days in order to begin the season and play our first match next Sunday."

The transfer ban and £160,000 fine had been imposed on Rangers by the SFA for bringing the game into disrepute, mainly over the club's failure to pay more than £13m in taxes last season.

Rangers administrator challenged the decision at the Court of Session and it was set aside by Lord Glennie, who referred it back to the SFA's appellate tribunal to reconsider.

However, the SFA announced that: "It has been agreed with Sevco Scotland Ltd that the registration embargo will be accepted as a primary condition of a transfer of membership.

"It is necessary to complete the judicial process following the determination by Lord Glennie in the Court of Session that required the independent appellate body to revisit available sanctions relating to oldco, having been found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute," said the SFA statement.

"Rather than convening the appellate tribunal to determine from the sanctions available to it, the company directors of Sevco Scotland Ltd have chosen to accept the 12-month registration embargo.

"Sevco Scotland Ltd have also undertaken to accept all other outstanding conditions relating to oldco's charges of bringing the game into disrepute.

"The conditional offer of transfer will now be submitted to the appellate tribunal for its consideration.

"Subject to the completion of all legal documentation, we anticipate transfer of membership next week.

"The imposition of conditions relating to transfer of membership was made on the basis that the Scottish FA, as the governing body, has an obligation to protect the integrity of the national game and to ensure that all member clubs operate within the articles of association."

The SFA announcement came on the day "The Rangers FC" were drawn at home to East Fife in the first round of the Scottish Communities League Cup.

[Crybaby Bunting]

From the CVA proposal

“4.23 In the event that either this CVA is not approved, or the other Conditions of the loan are not satisfied or waived by 23 July 2012, Sevco is contractually obliged to purchase the business and assets of the Company for £5,500,000 by 30 July 2012. All further terms of that sale have been agreed in advance and are confidential.”

Looks like we'll have some movement tomorrow then. Either Rangers tries to become a new club or Charles Green walks.

[Lineker]

Sale Sharks owner Brian Kennedy has issued a statement confirming his interest in buying Newco Rangers: "I have recently had several confidential meetings with a gentleman representing the shareholders of Sevco, with regards to my interest in purchasing a majority shareholding in Rangers Football Club. The details of these meetings and the written offer I have submitted have been disclosed from within the club. Now that this has leaked I have I have no alternative but to confirm that what is reported in the Daily Record regarding such matters is accurate."

[Lineker]

Broad agreement has been reached between the Scottish Premier League and Rangers following further discussions over Scottish FA membership.

Nothing has been signed as yet but BBC Scotland has learned progress has been made and all parties are now hopeful that a deal can be done.

Rangers are due to start their season against Brechin on Sunday.

The Ibrox club have been relaunched after the former incarnation could not be saved from liquidation.

Agreement between five parties - old Rangers, new Rangers, the SFA, SPL and Scottish Football League - is required for the relaunched club to inherit old Rangers' SFA membership, which is required to play in domestic competition, including the Ramsdens Cup tie at Brechin and all league matches.

The SFL have already agreed to place Rangers in Division Three after the club's attempts to replace the old club in the SPL and First Division were unsuccessful.

The main sticking point has been Rangers' insistence that they are not prosecuted following a dual contracts investigation.

The SPL wants an independent commission to rule on whether the previous club's administrators breached regulations with alleged undisclosed payments to players between 2001 and 2010, which could result in the club being stripped of the trophies won during that period.

On Saturday, manager McCoist said he would "never accept" stripping the club of titles.

Rangers had previously indicated that a 12-month signing ban from the SFA for unpaid football debts last season had been accepted.

That had left the question of media rights and the dual contracts investigation as areas to be discussed with SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster.

It has been reported that broadcasters are not keen to sign up to an SPL television deal without having access to Rangers newco's matches as part of the overall offering.

If the SPL is unable to include Rangers' rights in any media proposal, the SFL could lose out on their annual £2m settlement fee that was agreed in 1999 when the top clubs split from the league to form the top-flight.

Several players contracted to the old Rangers refused to join the new club but others allowed their registration to be transferred and SFA membership would likely give manager Ally McCoist the green light to make new signings.

Free agents Ian Black and Craig Beattie having been training at Ibrox and Rangers' Murray Park training ground.

[Crybaby Bunting]

This "Deal within 24 hours" has been going on for about a week now.

"New Rangers" are to play Brechan on Sunday in a cup match. At the moment, "New Rangers" don't have a license to play football and as a result cannot sign players to the club. The registry office closes over the weekend so "New Rangers" have to have a license by 5PM tomorrow otherwise they will not be able to play the game on Sunday.

So far there's far more evidence to support my claim that "New Rangers" aren't going to be playing football next season than there is evidence that "New Rangers" will be playing.

There's been a lot of 'signings' for "New Rangers", but legally "New Rangers" cannot use them to play football professionally without a license. Basically the players who are owned by "New Rangers" (players who accepted their contract being transferred) are just standard staff members at the moment and can be used to clean cars, serve tea or whatever, just as long as it doesn't involve playing football.

If "New Rangers" don't play a game on Sunday then expect Charles Green to walk away from "New Rangers" on Monday (the 30th) or Tuesday (the 31st) without paying a penny, leaving the new "club" (which doesn't have a club license) to fold before it has even played a game.