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Now that you mention the books. Do any of the book readers here actually care if they ever get released? It's been so long that I read A Dance With Dragons that I don't even really remember or care what's going on with most of the characters. With it all getting muddle up with the series and revealing the broad ending, there's no motivation to read it. I'm sure I will read it if WOW ever does come out, but I don't think I care in the slightest any more. With the delay and the show fucking things up so much, it's killed all interest.

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Dany being the big bad wasn't problematic in and of itself. The problem was that she had won the war and then decided to burn everyone for no reason. Yes, we've seen her deal out horribly violent punishments, but never against civilians. 

1 minute ago, TCO said:

Now that you mention the books. Do any of the book readers here actually care if they ever get released? It's been so long that I read A Dance With Dragons that I don't even really remember or care what's going on with most of the characters. With it all getting muddle up with the series and revealing the broad ending, there's no motivation to read it. I'm sure I will read it if WOW ever does come out, but I don't think I care in the slightest any more. With the delay and the show fucking things up so much, it's killed all interest.

In my case, and I'm sure in those of many others, yes, I do care.

There are still a lot of interesting plot threads and characters that weren't in the show, and GRRM has said that not all of the endings for the characters will be the same. Even if they are, I'd like to see how they get to those points in a way that's explored in more detail.

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100%. In the book, Jaime is the best character (and never raped anyone) - he’s gone full good guy, and Jon has just died, very interesting to see what happens there.

Arya too is amazing and she’s currently at the house of black and white. The truth behind Aegon (though the TV show seems to have put that in its place), the Dornish uprising and most importantly, Sansa is becoming so so good in the books.

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12 minutes ago, Tigerstyle said:

100%. In the book, Jaime is the best character (and never raped anyone) - he’s gone full good guy, and Jon has just died, very interesting to see what happens there.

Arya too is amazing and she’s currently at the house of black and white. The truth behind Aegon (though the TV show seems to have put that in its place), the Dornish uprising and most importantly, Sansa is becoming so so good in the books.

And don't forget Euron actually being a good character.

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On 23/05/2020 at 09:29, Bobfoc said:

I find it hard to see a reboot happening for years and years, if ever. As @livid suggested, there's so much room for spinoffs that HBO can milk it for a long time if its popularity doesn't tail off dramatically.

Speaking of spinoffs, what ideas have people come up with over the last year?

My spinoff ideas:

  • Robert's Rebellion, but it's Bobby B who dies at the Trident.
  • Century of Blood
  • something involving the lands east of Yi Ti and Leng, primarily around Asshai and the Shadow Lands
  • something exploring the politics of the Free Cities
  • "modern" setting involving an in-universe theatre troupe recreating the events of the show, heavily inspired by the performance Arya watched during her time in Braavos and how it was played up for comedic effect

 

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@Tigerstyle the one thing from the books I was pissed they didn't do was

Lady Stoneheart

, but I understood why and got over it once they started making Arya into a badass. I don't think it would have worked as well on tv as it did in the books.

But Cleganebowl outdid my expectations. 

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5 hours ago, GhostMachine said:

@Tigerstyle the one thing from the books I was pissed they didn't do was

  Reveal hidden contents

, but I understood why and got over it once they started making Arya into a badass. I don't think it would have worked as well on tv as it did in the books.

But Cleganebowl outdid my expectations. 

Spoiler

I think Lady Stoneheart could have worked quite well. The point at which A Dance with Dragons left off, with Brienne taking Jaime to Stoneheart, is a really interesting cliffhanger. Jaime having to face up to his past decisions and try to justify them to a husk of a human being hellbent on bloody vengeance is something I'm very much looking forward to reading.

As for Arya, they made her too powerful for my liking. We saw her surviving what for any unimportant character would be a fatal stab wound and then come back to kill the waif, and then she's almost immediately capable of infiltrating The Crossing and killing all the Freys, despite her fairly minimal training in the art of assassination. That also presumably meant that she had to spend a couple of weeks convincingly masquerading as Walder Frey before the feast, despite only meeting him once. Once she's massacred everyone (because the whole thing she learned from Ed Sheeran's crew about not everyone on the opposing side being evil apparently didn't apply to the Freys, who are all villains), she takes off her disguise and casually walks outside, where you'd imagine there'd be guards stationed.

The next time we see her, she's easily beating Brienne in a sparring session, even though Brienne is one of the best fighters in the land and has many years more experience in both melees and real fights. In my opinion, the whole "badass" portrayal went way too far way too quickly. By all means, make her an angry seeker of justice, but suddenly turning her into an invincible death ninja was a case of fan service going overboard.

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13 hours ago, Tigerstyle said:

100%. In the book, Jaime is the best character (and never raped anyone) - he’s gone full good guy, and Jon has just died, very interesting to see what happens there.

Arya too is amazing and she’s currently at the house of black and white. The truth behind Aegon (though the TV show seems to have put that in its place), the Dornish uprising and most importantly, Sansa is becoming so so good in the books.

Did the TV show basically confirm Young Griff is a fraud by writing him out and merging Jon Connington's story with Ser Jorah though?

Now that I think of it, the show left so much good material out that could have extended the series by years. Arainne and Quentyn Martell, and Victarion Greyjoy just don't exist in the TV show. The last few series of the show were such a missed opportunity.

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Just now, TCO said:

Did the TV show basically confirm Young Griff is a fraud by writing him out and merging Jon Connington's story with Ser Jorah though?

Now that I think of it, the show left so much good material out that could have extended the series by years. Arainne and Quentyn Martell, and Victarion Greyjoy were just don't exist in the TV show. The last few series of the show were such a missed opportunity.

I believe they did, at this point in the books of course there is nothing solid that Jon is anything other than Jon... The only consideration is that Jon really is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna while Aegon is Elia’s son, I suppose a storyline they could’ve just ripped out all together, I think it works better by yes, Jon being of Targaryen Blood, but him never knowing - This is how he is Rhaegal’s dragon rider.

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2 hours ago, TCO said:

Did the TV show basically confirm Young Griff is a fraud by writing him out and merging Jon Connington's story with Ser Jorah though?

Now that I think of it, the show left so much good material out that could have extended the series by years. Arainne and Quentyn Martell, and Victarion Greyjoy just don't exist in the TV show. The last few series of the show were such a missed opportunity.

My three favorite book characters are Victarion Greyjoy, Strong Belwas and Wyman Manderley and they all got written out of the show (no, I will not count Wyman being in one scene to get scolded by a little girl as being in the show).

I will absolutely read the books because there are so many more plot threads that the show cut out and they got too actiony at the end.  The Battle of Winterfell was pretty badly done, but the episodes featuring every before and after were fantastic.

The one spin off I want is The War of the Ninepenny Kings.  Nine usurpers put their armies together in an attempt to take over the Free Cities and Westeros so they could each take over one of them.  Robert's Grandather, Euron's Father and Tywin's father leading an army across the sea, with a young Barristan Selmy, Tywin, Kevan, The Blackfish, The Mad King, Littlefingers father and basically all the old men being part of it.

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11 hours ago, Tigerstyle said:

I believe they did, at this point in the books of course there is nothing solid that Jon is anything other than Jon... The only consideration is that Jon really is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna while Aegon is Elia’s son, I suppose a storyline they could’ve just ripped out all together, I think it works better by yes, Jon being of Targaryen Blood, but him never knowing - This is how he is Rhaegal’s dragon rider.

I believe it was rumored for a long time that the reason GRRM signed off on the show is that D&D basically told him that they believed Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

I'll read the books if they ever come out. I think one thing that GRRM did so well was at in all these non-essential storylines to keep the action going while his characters most important to the endgame can move to their next position so to speak. The TV show largely wrote a lot of those out unfortunately. And instead elected to just fly through things. Arya instantly becoming all-powerful was one of those things. Bran at least had some semblance of time passing in the show to become all-knowing. I forgive them for certain things, like a character moving from the south to the north in one episode. I don't really want half a season of people walking. But they took that freedom and decided to just bring it over to the character development side as well.

Back to the books though, I think so much of the extra stuff going on regarding a number of characters is going to definitely be the thing that keeps them going for me. The TV show felt the need to bring everyone together so that the final episodes weren't jumping between different storylines and they could have more freedom to make these really massive productions. The books won't do that. Some storylines will end on their own. Others will converge with others and then diverge again. And I would wager a lot of characters will have more open endings where they just ride off into the sunset. In fact I think it's that last part that has really affected GRRM so much as a writer, because he's clearly a guy who wants to tell *every* story and I'd wager editor/publisher aren't too keen and him filling up hundreds of pages doing that.

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