House of the Dragon (Game of Thrones) Thread

[MDK]

FUCK THE KING

[Ruki]

Yes, more Episode Nine talk. Where do people think this will rank in terms of other 'Episode Nines'?

Currently for me, it's Blackwater > Rains of Castamere > Baelor. This episode may get second or third depending on how it plays out.

I'm going to guess it will come in at #3 for me.

Blackwater (the Hound was amazing, Tyrion was amazing, everyone was amazing) > Rains of Castamere (not far behind...such a scarring episode) > Baelor

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

Yes, more Episode Nine talk. Where do people think this will rank in terms of other 'Episode Nines'?

Currently for me, it's Blackwater > Rains of Castamere > Baelor. This episode may get second or third depending on how it plays out.

I'm going to guess it will come in at #3 for me.

Blackwater (the Hound was amazing, Tyrion was amazing, everyone was amazing) > Rains of Castamere (not far behind...such a scarring episode) > Baelor

Basically the exact reasons I voted for them. Baelor got last because I'd just finished the first book when Series 1 got reshown on Sky Atlantic, so I already knew the big twist. Then I caught up with Series 2 and 3 after reading ACOK and then read the rest prior to this series.

Whilst ROC had far greater shock value, Blackwater was just a completely amazing episode on all fronts.

[Benjamin]

Blackwater was undoubtedly the best. I might watch that one before watching next week's episode.

Also Baelor was definitely better than Rains of Castamere for me. Ned Stark dying was always the holy shit moment for me, no matter what.

[Krone]

I would go with Baelor first as Ben said, it really set the tone for the show. Then the Red Wedding. I mean that right there just let all the shit fly in. Blackwater was nice, and everyone was good, but it didn't throw me the whole "I didn't see that coming..." type effect.

[Liam]

Without wanting to dredge everything up again, a couple of lines of dialogue would never be as powerful in setting up a concept as showing it would. 'Oh my, life is bad' just won't be as effective as showing the brutal reality.

[Your Mom]

Without wanting to dredge everything up again, a couple of lines of dialogue would never be as powerful in setting up a concept as showing it would. 'Oh my, life is bad' just won't be as effective as showing the brutal reality.

But how many times does it need to happen? Because a lot of rapes happen we need to keep seeing them?

[Krone]

Without wanting to dredge everything up again, a couple of lines of dialogue would never be as powerful in setting up a concept as showing it would. 'Oh my, life is bad' just won't be as effective as showing the brutal reality.

But how many times does it need to happen? Because a lot of rapes happen we need to keep seeing them?

I agree that it's powerful, but let's be honest, as awkward as the rapes are it's part of the world as others have said. It's the same thing as talking about how brutal some of the murders are in the show. Did we really need that incredibly gruesome ending to last weeks episode? I mean, it's not something that doesn't happen, and you could talk about just how vile some of the stuff such as the murders, Theon's Kaientai experience, and others that I'm probably not thinking of off the top of my head really are. Such is life, and that's why I appreciate Game of Thrones, because they aren't afraid to show how it is. We can connect with the world because it doesn't seem too "soft" or "fabricated". Everything feels real and it embraces our emotions only to twist them on us in a seconds notice that keeps us coming back for more.

[zero]

But we don't live in a world with this kind of violence, at least not in civilized culture. There are no trials by combat, the President doesn't get poisoned by the Secretary of Treasury so he can escape to Fiji with the previous Vice President's daughter, the Kardashian family didn't get entirely wiped out at Kim's wedding, these things are clearly the fantastical element of the show.

But rape is happening every hour of everyday and it is often used for cheap shock value by lazy writers in our fiction. All too often, the "she's about to get raped!" trope gets rolled out and in the case of GoT, at least two times the show has changed how it was written in the books, just to make it more miserable. It's misery porn, the kind of shit Sons of Anarchy does and GoT is a far, far superior show that should be above that. In a culture that has a serious problem with how we treat rape victims, it's a matter that good writers should handle more delicately.

I'm not saying I personally think rape is off-limits in fiction, I just hate to see such a serious topic handled so poorly. I expect rape in Westeros, if I saw the cannibal guys raping and pillaging, it would make me uncomfortable for sure, but it makes sense in context. Jamie raping Cersei, as has been pointed out numerous times in the thread, did not make sense. I've also been led to believe that Khaleesi and Drogo's relationship is not as rapey in the books, but I've not read them, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[DMN in the House]

Dany/Drogo isn't rapey in the books because it's pretty clear that he doesn't just view her as some piece of meat or anything like that, but there's, obviously, a huge divide in their culture. The only word he knows in the language of Westeros is 'no', and he tries to use it to communicate with her, and he's pretty gentle, overall. I didn't view it so much as rape, as it was a clash of cultures and Dany's inexperience.

Jaime/Cersei was fucked up in the show, but there's an argument to be made that, because, in the book it's from Jaime's point of view, not Cersei's, it doesn't come off as rape in the book even though it really is.

I see where Srar's coming from. I don't necessarily completely agree with it, because I don't think there's anything that should be out of bounds in fiction, but I can completely understand why she's uncomfortable with it. Trying to argue with her that she's wrong, which she isn't, because it's an opinion, is fruitless, and insulting.

[Your Mom]

I'm not even saying it should be out of bounds or off limits. I just agree with what Zero said about lazy writing and cheap shock value.

[DMN in the House]

I can agree with that.

Having read the books, I never felt that something was done for cheap shock value or because GRRM was lazy. Everything set up something else, and the most I would say is that you could argue that sometimes he does stuff simply because it breaks tropes.

I haven't watched every episode of the show, but it, in terms of things like nudity, does feel gratuitous compared to the book.

[Krone]

Oh I'm in no way discrediting her opinion. Just as anyone else I can respect it.

I just figured I would share my opinion on a fairly good case. Game of Thrones also has the rare privilege of airing on HBO where it can stretch it's boundaries, more so considering it's fiction and non-similar world to today. It's not like a Breaking Bad or Dexter where it's based on current day or Boardwalk Empire from the prohibition era which was still within the past one hundred years.

[TKz]

Dany/Drogo isn't rapey in the books because it's pretty clear that he doesn't just view her as some piece of meat or anything like that, but there's, obviously, a huge divide in their culture. The only word he knows in the language of Westeros is 'no', and he tries to use it to communicate with her, and he's pretty gentle, overall. I didn't view it so much as rape, as it was a clash of cultures and Dany's inexperience.

Jaime/Cersei was fucked up in the show, but there's an argument to be made that, because, in the book it's from Jaime's point of view, not Cersei's, it doesn't come off as rape in the book even though it really is.

I see where Srar's coming from. I don't necessarily completely agree with it, because I don't think there's anything that should be out of bounds in fiction, but I can completely understand why she's uncomfortable with it. Trying to argue with her that she's wrong, which she isn't, because it's an opinion, is fruitless, and insulting.

...It really, really is rape, though. The 13 year old girl really wasn't into it, you know, at all. She literally learns to enjoy it because otherwise she's going to be Khal Drogo's fuck toy for the rest of her life.

And again, I'll point out, of course it doesn't seem rapey in the book for Jamie/Cersei... that chapter is from the perspective of Jamie. Like half of asoiaf is built around unreliable narrators, Daenerys' whole story is pretty evidently skewed from her perspective, same with Cersei. That's why it's so shocking when shit gets fucked up for them at any point - because most of the time in the books, everything seems fine... because they're both too naive/arrogant to think otherwise.

I prefer the idea that it wasn't rape, because it doesn't make any sense in context of the redemption arc Jamie has gone through. But I don't see how the problem is with there being a rape scene - it happens in both mediums. If anything, be annoyed at the writers for using a different perspective than they've shown Jamie from previously. But can we stop saying "THEY'RE ADDING RAPE FOR SHOCK VALUE", because every scene with it is straight from the books. The only possible one that isn't, is the rumored Sansa scene, which we haven't seen yet and know nothing about.

Jesus. I usually can't wait for Sunday anyway, but now I'm more excited that we'll be able to talk about anything else.

[Summers]

Dany/Drogo isn't rapey in the books because it's pretty clear that he doesn't just view her as some piece of meat or anything like that, but there's, obviously, a huge divide in their culture. The only word he knows in the language of Westeros is 'no', and he tries to use it to communicate with her, and he's pretty gentle, overall. I didn't view it so much as rape, as it was a clash of cultures and Dany's inexperience.

Jaime/Cersei was fucked up in the show, but there's an argument to be made that, because, in the book it's from Jaime's point of view, not Cersei's, it doesn't come off as rape in the book even though it really is.

I see where Srar's coming from. I don't necessarily completely agree with it, because I don't think there's anything that should be out of bounds in fiction, but I can completely understand why she's uncomfortable with it. Trying to argue with her that she's wrong, which she isn't, because it's an opinion, is fruitless, and insulting.

That's it, people. That is it.

They had to take a chapter containing what it did, from the man's perspective.. and somehow turn it into something they could use. Had it been a Cersei chapter, it would have been obviously a lot different in what it puts across.

They have to change some scenes, there's no POV in the show. We watch it all neutrally instead of being guided by characters.

[Benjamin]

Let's talk something else!

I hope we see Sam do something awesome next episode, like accidently kill a whole lot of wildlings.

[Josh]

My problem with the rape is not that it seems to be there for shock value (not a fan of shock value, though.) My problem is that it seems to indicate the artists involved have a warped view of rape, which reflects a larger, cultural warped view.

As for "they had to do it the way they did it" I don't yet see how it was necessary. Why couldn't it have been consensual on Cersei's part? I get that it may have varied from what the book indicated, but would anything crucial really be lost? So crucial that it was worth making one of your growing protagonists a rapist? If she consents, it's still fucked up, but at least not in a way that tends to happen with regularity in real life.

Oh, and if Martin intended scenes like this to be raped, his view is pretty warped too.

And let's feel free to talk about this as long as there's something to talk about. There still is. Here, and lots of other places where rape comes up as a topic. If you hate the discussion, ignore it.

[Your Mom]

Why do you guys keep saying "LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE!" you can still talk about the show all you like without stifling this discussion. Your constant attempts to dismiss it make you look kind of jerkish. Don't want to be involved? Talk around it.

[Benji]

Has there been any confirmation that next week is all The Wall? I don't really care much about the stuff up there at the minute and all I want to see is what happens to Tyrion

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

Has there been any confirmation that next week is all The Wall? I don't really care much about the stuff up there at the minute and all I want to see is what happens to Tyrion

I don't think there's been confirmation, I just heard a rumour, which is why I suggested it, and the preview only shows Wall stuff, so it's looking likely to be true.