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Katsuya

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On 31/12/2015 at 17:26, GhostMachine said:

Worst mistakes were Jar Jar and the Midechlorians bull.

I don't think it needed explaining, but I don't really get the hate for the midi-chlorians stuff, it always seemed to me like fans trying a bit too hard to find something more to hate. Mind, what do I know, I thought Phantom Menace wasn't anything amazing, but an okay film but outside of some (very) shit characters >_>

20 hours ago, Skummy said:

I will agree that the Phantom Menace game is fucking great.

Oh shit, I totally forgot about that. Killing droids with reflected blaster shots was hella fun.

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Before I watched any of the Harry Potter films (only took me a decade or so), other people would say to me things like "They're really good...the first few are a bit naff or childish in some ways, but by the time you get to the 4th one it's brilliant". In other words, an acknowledgement that some weren't as good but without the intense loathing that the Star Wars prequels get. I suspect that had the SW films been released in episode order, rather than strictly divided into Nostalgic Originals and New Prequels, their reception would have been pretty similar to that.

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So I watched Phantom Menace. 

The main problems have constantly been pointed out - Jar Jar is terrible, lil Anakin just couldn't pull off many of the seasons, performances were wooden, etc. 

But I guess the problem is it just seemed like a completely different movie to the original movies. The original movies were science fiction moves that the whole family could watch. TPM felt like a kids movie that had science fiction elements to it. Every alien character was written as if they were a six year old child. Dark Maul worked as a kids villain, but as an adult, I was bored because I knew zero about him. All the focus on Anakin probably worked for kids, but as an adult I just laughed at his poorly written dialogue and him awkwardly and lifelessly spinning around in a pod or the ship. 

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Yeah, the two bits that tend to get praised in Phantom Menace are Darth Maul and pod-racing, and I find both incredibly dull. Darth Maul has an interesting look and the dual lightsaber thing is a nice "ooh, this is different" element, but you know literally nothing about him - and not in the way that you know nothing of Boba Fett, and that makes him kind of cool, but in the sense that you're never given a reason to care about him other than "he looks kinda scary". Pod-racing is just interminably long and serves so little purpose.

I don't think "if the movies had been released in a different order" is a useful talking point, because the chief problem with the prequels is the sheer amount of creative control that George Lucas had over them - all the best things about Star Wars come about in spite of George Lucas, not because of him - and whatever order the movies were released in, that would have been the case. There would have been more people involved creatively in the first three movies, resulting in better structured and directed films, and then by the next three, you've got a horde of people afraid to say "no" to George Lucas because they either grew up with the original movies and don't dare criticise, or because they're industry veterans who bet against him last time round and don't want to cut anything out in case it's that magical thing that made Star Wars great that they didn't "get" last time.

Of course, the idea might have more merit if you believe George Lucas' story that he had nine films written and had to choose a middle one, but that's clearly complete bollocks.

 

As much as there is, of course, a huge amount of fanboyism that goes into the hatred of the prequels I think it's worth saying that their chief failing isn't that their bad Star Wars films, it's that they're just bad films in general.

 

There is a huge element of nostalgia that plays into the love for the originals, though, of course - I watched them back a few years ago for the first time since about 1998, and while they're still great fun, there's plenty to complain about and pick apart logically in them as well. In Kim Newman's recent review of The Force Awakens, he says he can never understand why people blindly detest Jar Jar Binks yet C3PO gets a free pass, and I kind of see his point, and that's quite a good illustration of what you're talking about in terms of favouritism towards the originals.

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Just remembering my other point I meant to make about the prequels - which I've probably made before in this thread - that I think is their biggest failing as a Star Wars story.

To me, two of the best scenes in Star Wars are the Cantina, and Jabba's Palace. Each of these scenes feel like whole worlds that would be continuing whether the central characters were there, and whether the audience was watching, or not. Every character seems like someone with their own story. When the Rancor is defeated, and its handler cries, that suggests an entire history you see nothing more of, rather than just the Monster Of The Day being bested by the hero. The cumulative effect of scenes like that is it feels like Star Wars exists in a universe far bigger, and far more alive, than just what the central narrative is showing you - and I think that's the key to Star Wars' appeal.

Not only do the prequels consistently fail to create that atmosphere, they actually manage to make the universe feel smaller and more constrained by the narrative. Rather than getting a glimpse of a bounty hunter whose history you can only guess at, and characters who - while only existing for background colour or to deliver a single line, are compelling enough to hint at something bigger - you're now in a universe where Darth Vader built C3PO, where Yoda and Chewbacca are old friends, and so on. By drawing needless connections between unrelated characters, it just conspires to make the Star Wars universe smaller and, as a result, infinitely less interesting.

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45 minutes ago, Skummy said:

As much as there is, of course, a huge amount of fanboyism that goes into the hatred of the prequels I think it's worth saying that their chief failing isn't that their bad Star Wars films, it's that they're just bad films in general.

I would never describe TPM as a bad Star Wars movie, it was just a bad movie in general. The performances were uninspired, the script was bad, Jar Jar Binks was obnoxious, and the plot was half baked. Even Ewan was bad in the movie, which... was sort of surprising to me. If that was a regular action-adventure movie, I would think it was a bad kids movie. I'm glad I watched it because it is part of the Star Wars universe, but I would never watch it again.  It didn't feel like a waste of my time, but i was tired from rolling my eyes so many times during the movie. 

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My girlfriend is in the camp of people who can't stand C3PO. A comic relief character getting a ton of focus, especially in A New Hope, is something that should turn people off to the entire franchise. And in defense of Jar Jar the fact that everyone appeared okay with C3PO probably played a huge role in Lucas thinking he could just go back to that well. And as someone who rewatched the originals before TFA I did find around 30-40 minutes into A New Hope myself wanting them to get on with things. And so much of that time is devoted to the droids. I think the fact that back in 1977 stories weren't told that way in the west is what gives C3PO more of a "free pass". Nearly 40 years on and everyone and their mother has done TV shows or movies where comic relief characters are integral to the storyline progression. By the time the prequels came out entertainment had gone in a complete opposite direction essentially avoiding any and all comic relief.

Going back to the cantina scene, it's genuinely the most brilliant part of the entire series. There's an entire world there, characters with vast histories that only briefly get touched on. Nothing is as "Star Wars" as establishing in spite of this massive battle between good and evil with the lives of the entire galaxy in the balance, most of the people in the galaxy don't really give a shit. Han Solo's entire character is based around that! The prequels completely missed that, making the galaxy incredibly small and intertwined. Everyone knows everyone. Boba Fett, C3PO, R2D2, they were all there. It made a lot more sense to bring back characters for TFA than it did to insert them into the prequels. The fight was completely different then, but the fight from A New Hope on has been the same.

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No, C3PO is terrible. During TPM, when he pops up, my husband turns me to after being subjected to Jar Jar Binks and says "just what this movie needs, C3PO". 

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I don't think I like Threepio so much as I've just gotten used to him. Like, I didn't like him at all as a kid and now as an adult it's sort of like "yeah, that's Threepio, he's kind of a drip but I've known him since I was like eight, so."

His first appearance in TFA got a good laugh in the theater I was at, anyway.

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As standalone things you are probably correct (fight scenes aren't really my thing, so none of them really excite me), but go watch any of the duels from the original Star Wars and then tell me it's not impressive in comparison. Also the start of A New Hope is easily the most boring thing in ANY of the movies. 

My issue with Midicholrians and especially them being in measurable amounts is that it makes the force less special. It's like if on the first day at Hogwarts the sorting hat said "this one is super powerful and is clearly going to make a better wizard than all the others". It changes it from something some people are better at being attuned to due to their personality or work harder to achieve and instead is just something you have in varying amounts depending on your genetics.  

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The saber battles in TPM are technically impressive for the time, but almost 20 years later they aren't at all and since there is zero heart to the saber fights, it is a total bore. I figured Qui-Gon and Maul would die, so it was basically waiting until they die. 

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I like "Duel of the Fates," though. To be honest, that's probably the only thing from Phantom Menace that I've really re-experienced at all since like 2000 or 2001 or so.

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I've never really cared about the style/content of a saber fight. It never mattered to me that Obi-Wan/Vader did very little because I was mainly listening to their verbal sparring and hint-dropping about the nature of the Force. Vader/Luke in Empire was more about Luke's weakness, getting beaten down and/or escaping than anything else, and Vader/Luke in Jedi is all about the temptation and subsequent rage attack.

Saber fights since then seem to have been all about WE CAN SPIN AND FLIP AND SWISH AND WOOO LOOK AT THIS SABER'S GIMMICK. It felt more like the story was on pause until the fight ends so that the requisite death can happen. Not to say that (all) the later duels are pointless - they (usually) have a point at the end, e.g. Palpatine goading the execution of Dooku - but the length/swirliness of the preceding action seems long enough to be a distraction in itself.

Honestly, the Yoda spinny fight that lots adored was possibly the most annoying saber fight of the lot for me...but then I was always unfussed by Yoda anyway. :shifty: 

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6 hours ago, damshow said:

My girlfriend is in the camp of people who can't stand C3PO. A comic relief character getting a ton of focus, especially in A New Hope, is something that should turn people off to the entire franchise. And in defense of Jar Jar the fact that everyone appeared okay with C3PO probably played a huge role in Lucas thinking he could just go back to that well. And as someone who rewatched the originals before TFA I did find around 30-40 minutes into A New Hope myself wanting them to get on with things. And so much of that time is devoted to the droids. I think the fact that back in 1977 stories weren't told that way in the west is what gives C3PO more of a "free pass". Nearly 40 years on and everyone and their mother has done TV shows or movies where comic relief characters are integral to the storyline progression. By the time the prequels came out entertainment had gone in a complete opposite direction essentially avoiding any and all comic relief.

Going back to the cantina scene, it's genuinely the most brilliant part of the entire series. There's an entire world there, characters with vast histories that only briefly get touched on. Nothing is as "Star Wars" as establishing in spite of this massive battle between good and evil with the lives of the entire galaxy in the balance, most of the people in the galaxy don't really give a shit. Han Solo's entire character is based around that! The prequels completely missed that, making the galaxy incredibly small and intertwined. Everyone knows everyone. Boba Fett, C3PO, R2D2, they were all there. It made a lot more sense to bring back characters for TFA than it did to insert them into the prequels. The fight was completely different then, but the fight from A New Hope on has been the same.

So the two people who ended up taking down the evil Empire being the secret twin children (who were literally separated at birth and had never met) of the most feared person in the galaxy isn't a small universe? George Lucas made a point that makes sense...from the beginning the saga was always a soap opera in space. In soap operas, everyone always knows everyone. Everything is always interconnected. You may not like it, but he followed that storytelling structure.

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