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Katsuya

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Listened to a podcast last night that ended up being 90% Last Jedi talk. And a point made in it booked down to "The First Order are a bunch of posers and the Resistance are flawed but good". Which I guess had occurrd to me before but never really struck me coherently until it was pointed out. And I think that makes me like Last Jedi a little more.

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35 minutes ago, Hobo said:

Listened to a podcast last night that ended up being 90% Last Jedi talk. And a point made in it booked down to "The First Order are a bunch of posers and the Resistance are flawed but good". Which I guess had occurrd to me before but never really struck me coherently until it was pointed out. And I think that makes me like Last Jedi a little more.

Where TFA made it a point to show that Hux is basically a Grand Moff Tarkin cosplayer and Kylo Ren is basically a Darth Vader cosplayer they definitely tried to show that the Resistance is the successor to the Rebellion but they don't go about things perfectly. Last Jedi took both of those and added a lot of nuance to them, I liked the point at the very end that the rebellion is more than their leaders. It's people like Rose and that broom boy who are the real rebellion, and the leaders despite their mistakes and flaws need to keep sight of that.

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16 minutes ago, Adam said:

On Snoke, in Last Jedi he demonstrated powers.

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Spoiler

“You gonna cry, Kyle? You gonna cry???”

 

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A bit about Snoke:

Spoiler

 

I'm pretty confident he's just a fanboy of the Dark Side and is sort of a cult leader than an actual Sith Lord. He definitely has a huge crush on Vader, the ring on his finger contains a piece of rock from Vader's castle / fortress thing.  So I don't think he's anyone bigger than Vader or the Emperor, just a person who was uniquely in touch with the Force and was there to pick up the pieces when the Empire fell.

Either way, it doesn't matter. It's not Snoke's story, just like the first trilogy wasn't Vader's. People being upset on not knowing about his backstory are silly.

 

 

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Well I mean, there are only ever two Sith at once right, at least in the way you can try to define a master relationship. A master and an apprentice - there could be other Dark Jedi but with the rule of two being torn to shreds by Vader/Sidious both dying at the same time. Snoke was probably just a dude who essentially yeah, wormed his way in and convinced anyone who wasn't Force knowledgeable that he was a successor.

Or he could be cheeky and be saying that he wasn't of the Sith race.

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7 hours ago, damshow said:

 

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Where TFA made it a point to show that Hux is basically a Grand Moff Tarkin cosplayer and Kylo Ren is basically a Darth Vader cosplayer they definitely tried to show that the Resistance is the successor to the Rebellion but they don't go about things perfectly. Last Jedi took both of those and added a lot of nuance to them, I liked the point at the very end that the rebellion is more than their leaders. It's people like Rose and that broom boy who are the real rebellion, and the leaders despite their mistakes and flaws need to keep sight of that.

 

Something I liked about TFA and Last Jedi is that details the audience knows about characters become "legends" to other people. Finn is a legend to Rose, Luke and Han are legends to Rey. I really like that idea because it shows how big this universe and how important myth is to the cultures within it.

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So I saw TLJ last night and... well, I'm going to just leave this here.

Spoiler

As I was laying down to sleep, I was unpacking the story and the revelations within in my head and I came across a couple things that completely turn everything about the saga narrative as we know it on our head.

ONE: During Luke's first lesson to Rey, Luke points out the idea that if the Jedi died then the Light Side of the Force would also die is nothing but vanity. A major truth bomb not only to Rey, but to all of us as well and I think that was the intention of that line.

TWO: Despite the fact that Rey with no training whatsoever was able to match Kylo Ren's power, she is NOT a Skywalker, despite the obvious narrative hints toward the contrary. Now you can argue that this is Kylo Ren playing headgames with her, but the fact that the Vision Infinity Mirror only showed her coupled with the fact that Luke was unable to recognize Rey's presence leads me to believe that he was being truthful.

With these two things in mind, the following are my arguments that Anakin was never the chosen one, and in fact, Rey is.

*Obi-Wan didn't know the full prophecy. He probably knew snippits of it but never read the Whills, while the Jedi Council of his time, who probably have read them (at the very least Yoda did), were doubtful that Obi-Wan was right about Anakin being the Chosen One. Which leads me to believe that Obi-Wan was missing some part of the prophecy. But... Luke's dialogue with Yoda notes that Luke did read the Whills, and therefore, if the prophecy is in them, Luke knows all about it.

*We know Anakin was almost certainly born of the force. And it is a rare event to be sure, but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible for it to happen again. Rey could well have been born of the force too; it would explain her raw potential.

*Anakin did not bring balance, he tipped the scales towards the Darkness. Because if Jedi =/= Light Side, then Sith =/= Dark Side. The force is in all living beings, then light and darkness can be represented outside of the Jedi and Sith. With this in mind the galaxy of ~30BBY was in near-equillibrium. The Republic were in control of most of the galaxy, but there was corruption within and the Hutts controlling the Outer Rim without. After Palpatine's coup, we have the Empire controlling most of the galaxy, crime lords controlling most of the rest, and pockets of resistance on the other side. Even after Palpatine's Death the New Republic barely gets going when the First Order rises from the ashes, and by the time TLJ comes around the Resistance is in tatters. This is not balance, this is the Dark Side heavily in power.

*In conclusion, The Prophecy of the Chosen One is deeper than what was established in 1-3, and both Luke and Yoda know that Rey is the true Chosen One. She is the Last Jedi and Ren is the Last Sith, but that is not what makes her the bringer of Balance. She will sacrifice herself and Ren might too to end the First Order, to finally cleanse the Galaxy of the darkness that Sidious and Vader brought. And from this, the Galaxy will finally be at peace, and balance will finally be restored.

 

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1 hour ago, OctoberRavenO said:

So I saw TLJ last night and... well, I'm going to just leave this here.

  Hide contents

As I was laying down to sleep, I was unpacking the story and the revelations within in my head and I came across a couple things that completely turn everything about the saga narrative as we know it on our head.

ONE: During Luke's first lesson to Rey, Luke points out the idea that if the Jedi died then the Light Side of the Force would also die is nothing but vanity. A major truth bomb not only to Rey, but to all of us as well and I think that was the intention of that line.

TWO: Despite the fact that Rey with no training whatsoever was able to match Kylo Ren's power, she is NOT a Skywalker, despite the obvious narrative hints toward the contrary. Now you can argue that this is Kylo Ren playing headgames with her, but the fact that the Vision Infinity Mirror only showed her coupled with the fact that Luke was unable to recognize Rey's presence leads me to believe that he was being truthful.

With these two things in mind, the following are my arguments that Anakin was never the chosen one, and in fact, Rey is.

*Obi-Wan didn't know the full prophecy. He probably knew snippits of it but never read the Whills, while the Jedi Council of his time, who probably have read them (at the very least Yoda did), were doubtful that Obi-Wan was right about Anakin being the Chosen One. Which leads me to believe that Obi-Wan was missing some part of the prophecy. But... Luke's dialogue with Yoda notes that Luke did read the Whills, and therefore, if the prophecy is in them, Luke knows all about it.

*We know Anakin was almost certainly born of the force. And it is a rare event to be sure, but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible for it to happen again. Rey could well have been born of the force too; it would explain her raw potential.

*Anakin did not bring balance, he tipped the scales towards the Darkness. Because if Jedi =/= Light Side, then Sith =/= Dark Side. The force is in all living beings, then light and darkness can be represented outside of the Jedi and Sith. With this in mind the galaxy of ~30BBY was in near-equillibrium. The Republic were in control of most of the galaxy, but there was corruption within and the Hutts controlling the Outer Rim without. After Palpatine's coup, we have the Empire controlling most of the galaxy, crime lords controlling most of the rest, and pockets of resistance on the other side. Even after Palpatine's Death the New Republic barely gets going when the First Order rises from the ashes, and by the time TLJ comes around the Resistance is in tatters. This is not balance, this is the Dark Side heavily in power.

*In conclusion, The Prophecy of the Chosen One is deeper than what was established in 1-3, and both Luke and Yoda know that Rey is the true Chosen One. She is the Last Jedi and Ren is the Last Sith, but that is not what makes her the bringer of Balance. She will sacrifice herself and Ren might too to end the First Order, to finally cleanse the Galaxy of the darkness that Sidious and Vader brought. And from this, the Galaxy will finally be at peace, and balance will finally be restored.

 

One thing TLJ has definitely worked to do is clean up a lot of the narrative messes left by the prequels. It takes the ideas Lucas had that he never really translated well to the screen and has been able to make them concise and understandable, while also keeping their importance profound. The prequels tried to depict the Jedi so fat with power and influence they could never understand exactly what was doing or precisely what the prophecy meant. It mostly failed here, but TLJ in just some short dialogue pointed it cleaned it up.

TLJ also cleaned up a lot of questions on the dark side through Snoke. Dark side does not mean Sith. They movie wanted to make it somewhat clear that Snoke is just a guy, and he isn't an actual member of the Sith. Step in Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith lord but is trying to remake the galaxy as he wants. He's using the dark side to achieve his ideal end. The prequels, and of course original trilogy, never effectively explained this aspect of the Force. It was almost as if there were only 2 possible sides, and no shades of grey, within the Force. If you weren't Jedi and used the Force then you just had to be Sith. And that's not the case.

TLJ also did a smart move on the topic of midichlorians by basically saying the Force is everywhere anyway, as in everyone has midichlorians in them. Or something like that. That's like fixing a broken lamp, it might turn on again but when you look closely at it it's still broken.

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Just now, damshow said:

 

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One thing TLJ has definitely worked to do is clean up a lot of the narrative messes left by the prequels. It takes the ideas Lucas had that he never really translated well to the screen and has been able to make them concise and understandable, while also keeping their importance profound. The prequels tried to depict the Jedi so fat with power and influence they could never understand exactly what was doing or precisely what the prophecy meant. It mostly failed here, but TLJ in just some short dialogue pointed it cleaned it up.

TLJ also cleaned up a lot of questions on the dark side through Snoke. Dark side does not mean Sith. They movie wanted to make it somewhat clear that Snoke is just a guy, and he isn't an actual member of the Sith. Step in Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith lord but is trying to remake the galaxy as he wants. He's using the dark side to achieve his ideal end. The prequels, and of course original trilogy, never effectively explained this aspect of the Force. It was almost as if there were only 2 possible sides, and no shades of grey, within the Force. If you weren't Jedi and used the Force then you just had to be Sith. And that's not the case.

TLJ also did a smart move on the topic of midichlorians by basically saying the Force is everywhere anyway, as in everyone has midichlorians in them. Or something like that. That's like fixing a broken lamp, it might turn on again but when you look closely at it it's still broken.

 

Well this is going into Legends/Old EU but

Spoiler

The Jedi Path and Sith Order books from the tail end of pre-Disney EU confirm that there's a correlation but that midichlorian counts are a measure of strength in the Force but not a perfect one. So yeah.

Also on the topic of those books, Palpatine also knows about the Prophecy, but has purged all knowledge of it as part of Order 66. Even the trophy copy of Jedi Path that he kept had the pages removed or blacked out (depending on the edition).

 

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  • 2 months later...

Reviews for Solo are dropping, general consensus seems to be that's its pretty good.   I'd say pretty good is a fine achievement for a film with as many problems as this one had.

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9 hours ago, Maxx said:

Reviews for Solo are dropping, general consensus seems to be that's its pretty good.   I'd say pretty good is a fine achievement for a film with as many problems as this one had.

Yup, 4/5 from Empire, Total Film and The Guardian. 

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I wasn't particularly interested on paper, but the reviews make it sound like it might be worth checking out after all.

I finally got around to watching The Last Jedi last weekend, and really didn't think all that much of it.

Spoiler

I'm just not particularly invested in any of the new characters at all.

Rey, in particular, is a complete Mary Sue. She's besting experienced force users, and Luke Skywalker in lightsaber battles, and seemingly effortlessly using force powers she's had little if any formal training to use, despite the fact that we've witnessed Luke, Anakin, and countless other Jedi have to go through years of training to get anywhere near that level. Now maybe that will all be explained by her parentage in the next film, maybe it won't (though I can't think of a single satisfying pay-off to that "mystery"), but at the moment it's just a character I'm never remotely concerned for or invested in because it doesn't feel like she's ever had to work for anything or earn anything at any point in the last two films. We saw Luke Skywalker train under Obi Wan, become a war-worn Rebel leader, go through strife and heartache, confront the Dark Side and find his inner strength - we saw struggle, we saw conflict, we saw him earn his victories - we see none of that in Rey.

Poe felt largely pointless throughout, and the whole bit of Finn and Rose at a space casino was utterly pointless, as was Benicio Del Toro's character. We're introduced to him as a shady untrustworthy type that we're not sure if the heroes should trust, then it turns out they shouldn't have trusted him. Such a shock.

 

My biggest problems were probably with Luke, though. I don't mind the idea of Luke as a defeated old hermit, reluctant to get back involved, crushed by his failures and all that, but it was such a "Tell, Don't Show" mess. We're told that Luke had an entire Jedi Order, that he was training people, and only Kylo Ren is left...but that's it, we were just told. We have no emotional investment in the fall of Luke's Jedi Order, because we've never seen them, we don't know who they are, we have no reason to care that they're all gone because we never knew them in the first place.

And the idea that Luke gave it all up because he almost murdered his nephew? That he looked in Kylo Ren's eyes and saw a darkness that scared him so much he drew his lightsaber, and was prepared to use it? This is the man that saw goodness and scope for forgiveness and redemption in Darth Vader. Yet, as an older, ostensibly more mature teacher, he sees something in his own nephew - a character that much of the rest of the film paints as conflicted, not as irredeemably evil - that almost brings him to the point of killing him? Ridiculous, and a betrayal of a ton of character development.

Killing off Admiral Ackbar off-screen just felt like a dick move. It's such a minor point, but it felt symbolic of the rest of the film in that it almost felt contemptuous of the audience. Like, "oh, you liked all that nostalgia in the last movie? You love having all this back? Well fuck you pal, we're going to kill off a beloved minor character off-screen for no pay-off".

 

Apart from a couple of points that were visually interesting, I struggle to come up with any positives about this film. Carrie Fisher's portrayal of Leia, as in Force Awakens, was superb - she's the only character in the whole thing that feels genuinely human, and like there's a real emotional history behind her, yet even that was squandered by the pointless "using the Force to survive in the vacuum of space" scene that added nothing. That's really about it. 

Above all, it was a forgettable movie. And while I had a lot of problems with The Force Awakens, at least it was still fun. This was a chore.

 

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