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EWR Stats and Scenarios in Theory and Practice


Sousa

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There seems to be a greater interest over the last few months in EWR stats, what they mean, what their implications are, and how the system can be improved. EWB's adage has, for a long time, been, "If you're not happy with something around here, go try to do something about it." This is my attempt to do something about it.

EWR hasn't had a significant update in over a decade (nor should it--Ryland has rightly moved on to games that are actually going to help keep him in beans and toast), but in that time, the game has largely been kept alive through stat updates, so-called "scenarios." EWB's "real-world" scenarios have of late been Bill's bailiwick, but others have tried as well.

If nothing else, though, the last months' worth of conversation has demonstrated that there are some areas in which messing with EWR has gotten away from people. I think it's worth discussing.

I'll start with a few notes and chime in with more discussion down the road, but I'd like to get the ball rolling and have a productive discussion. All are welcome, of course--including Bill and all of you non-orange commoners. :P

Feel free to add your own discussion points as well.

* What are the real implications of stats in the game? As has been discussed at length, just to give an example, "Shooting Ability" affects exactly one thing in the game: whether or not a wrestler will be sought out by PRIDE for touring. What does this mean for the game? Who should get "Shooting Ability" ticked? Are there any other examples?

* What are the implications of EWR being as outdated as it is? Dead touring promotions have of course been brought up, but I think there are other ways in which EWR feels old--though many of these are just limitations that people will have to work around. The gimmick "Gay," for example, requires that a worker not be Menacing and that a "Gay" babyface must work for a company with a fairly high Risk. I would argue that this would not be the case today, though it absolutely was in 2003 (which speaks to how quickly public perceptions of homosexuality have shifted). Are there any other ways in which mod-makers should keep EWR's age in mind? And don't just say "NO MONEY IN THE BANK MATCH" because those sorts of things have no effect on the creation of scenarios and mods.

* What about old wrestlers? A very common complaint levied against EWR scenarios is that they're bloated with wrestlers no one has ever heard of, and I think that's fair, but let's look at why: mod-makers are often reluctant to cut old workers. I made a joke about "being a big Scott Snot fan" in last month's update thread, but it's worth looking at deeper. Scott Snot was a curtain-jerker in XPW over a decade ago and has largely not been seen since. Is anybody clamoring for this guy to make a return? More to the point, is it ever going to happen, or is it more likely that Scott Snot went off to get an associate's in graphic design or something? It's worth mentioning here that it's fairly easy to add a new worker or two to a data set if one wants, so at what point is it worth cutting old talent out of the data entirely?

I don't know what exactly the end game is here, but I think the discussion's worth having anyway, so let's have it!

-Another Guy Named Bill

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I think to add to Bill(V2.0)'s I think it would be worthwhile having a discussion about how people perceive things, going back to the "shooting" example, what sports are worthy of ticking for this, and what exactly means a "Superstar look", etc... as there appears to be so many conflicting view points it would be nice to get a zero point consensus where mod makers can work from.

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For me, the superstar look is the guy that puts asses in the seats. They do not have to be the best workers, but the right workers. Historical examples would be Billy Graham, Hulk Hogan, Jesse Ventura, Ric Flair, Undertaker, Sting, Foley, Austin, Rock, Cena, HBK, HHH. These are the guys that the average Joe Mark pays to see wrestle. In addition, they either have been, are, or will be the face of the company. Obviously in the last case, there's no way we can possibly know that, so it's going to be a judgment call. I liked Chris Benoit (well, other than that :shifty:), but even when he had his title run, he was not the face of the company.

Shooting: Have they worked for, or will work for in the near future, an MMA promotion? Knowing how to do it, and actually doing it are two entirely different things. We all know Kurt Angle has the credentials, but the fact that he hasn't left wrestling for MMA suggests that he should not have MMA experience.

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The thing about Superstar Look, though, is that it has too many gimmick implications to limit to "guys who put asses in seats." Someone else can check, but the number of gimmicks that require Superstar Look can reasonably be described as "a buttload."

Again, this is less "what do you prefer?" and more "what are the in-game implications if we do this?" EWR stats have often felt like they exist independently of the game they exist in, which is what this thread is meant to address.

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For me, the superstar look is the guy that puts asses in the seats. They do not have to be the best workers, but the right workers. Historical examples would be Billy Graham, Hulk Hogan, Jesse Ventura, Ric Flair, Undertaker, Sting, Foley, Austin, Rock, Cena, HBK, HHH. These are the guys that the average Joe Mark pays to see wrestle. In addition, they either have been, are, or will be the face of the company. Obviously in the last case, there's no way we can possibly know that, so it's going to be a judgment call. I liked Chris Benoit (well, other than that :shifty:), but even when he had his title run, he was not the face of the company.

Shooting: Have they worked for, or will work for in the near future, an MMA promotion? Knowing how to do it, and actually doing it are two entirely different things. We all know Kurt Angle has the credentials, but the fact that he hasn't left wrestling for MMA suggests that he should not have MMA experience.

That's a tricky definition though as it means you have to be already established to get it ticked. It's a really subjective one, since superstar look seems to go everywhere from musclebound Luger types up to 7 footers, plus any woman deemed to look 'reight fit'. In fact from the older data it seems like its 'anyone the WWE would like to sign' using the internets definition of that from ten years ago.

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I may have an idea for that.

Make a small database, with the number of male workers equal to the number of gimmicks. Make a copy of the data before you start.

Give them all a separate gimmick after starting the game, and slowly debut them. You can edit it in so you have the max numbers of show, the gameplay isn't important here.

Make a note of how the gimmick is treated. Some gimmicks can be skipped: ones that require menacing, high spots, evil foreigner etc.

Now, using that same data, give the ones that got negative reactions the super star look, and try it again. If they get a positive response, we'll know. If it's still negative, then we know what gimmicks need to be investigated.

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I think that's been pretty well settled, though.

Franchise Player, Man in Black, Movie Star, and Ravishing (so... fewer than I thought) are all gimmicks, according to this list, that require Superstar Look (is that really it?). That doesn't exactly read like a list of top guy gimmicks.

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That was just my opinion on what a superstar was versus what it actually did in game. :shifty:

I honestly don't know what a solution could be. It's so easier to do this in hindsight. Just give people we're not sure about the unique gimmick?

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I'm still wondering where this "Shooting only affects who PRIDE will sign" is coming from, other than someone in the other thread saying that that's all it does.

If I were a betting man, I'd about bet that owners that are set to "Prefer Mixed Martial Arts" would look to sign workers with Shooting Ability as well.

Which means, if we take the "Shooting only affects who PRIDE will sign" as correct and remove shooting from everyone, then when and if an owner that prefers mixed martial arts takes over one of the in-game promotions, they won't sign anyone, since nobody will have shooting checked.

Currently, there are two owners that prefer mixed martial arts in the game: Antonio Inoki and Rick Bassman. So, it's not like it's a major thing, but if one of those two take over a promotion in your game and nobody has shooting checked, if they don't sign anyone due to that, you essentially have an empty promotion in the game... Which will ultimately lead to people wanting shooting ticked on workers again.

With over 5800 workers in the database currently, I'm really not liking the idea of going through and making sure none of them have shooting checked, only to have to go through and recheck it, if this whole "shooting only affects who PRIDE will sign" theory is incorrect.

On things like superstar look, fonz factor, etc: The problem is, they're subjective. Everyone will have their own opinions. In theory, damn near every female should have diva checked, because pretty much everyone is attractive to someone. An example of this would be Taylor Nicole. She doesn't have diva checked, but is married to Joe Rules. Are we to believe that, if Joe Rules was making suggestions to the data, that he doesn't think his wife has sex appeal or is photogenic?

Same goes for Superstar Look. I might catch hell for this, but personally, I think Dean Ambrose looks like a goofball, not a superstar. Of the three members of the Shield, he'd be the last one I gave Superstar look to. But, I know the majority would raise hell if he didn't have it checked. Just again, personal opinions.

One thing I can say is, if someone makes a suggestion for a gimmick change that requires something be checked... If the worker fits that gimmick, they also would get the check to ensure that the gimmick works. For superstar look, that's only 4 gimmicks. But, for menacing, it's around 10. Some gimmicks require that the worker not have something checked as well.

On older (unknown, or little known) workers: I've been gradually weeding some out and I'll continue to do that. That's one thing I really do like about Fusion's posts... They're drawing my attention to some of these workers who, if we can't find info on them in 2013, probably won't be in the data much longer. Beforehand, I'd visit guys like Randy Orton and John Cena's stats multiple times per month, because there were people arguing over whether their charisma should be at 94 or 95... When I have to visit the same workers multiple times, month after month, for such miniscule changes (which again, mainly are suggested based on opinion) it takes away from other stuff that I could be doing. Thanks to Fusion, I have literally pages and pages of suggestions on workers, many of whom I've never worked on in my seven years of doing updates. While it's likely annoying to some, it forces me to actually look at the worker and see if he or she is even worth keeping in, if we can't get accurate info for him/her. It won't get done in one month and a good majority of his suggestions are "back burner" stuff, but it is nice to have something in my notes regarding these workers.

-Bill

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With over 5800 workers in the database currently, I'm really not liking the idea of going through and making sure none of them have shooting checked, only to have to go through and recheck it, if this whole "shooting only affects who PRIDE will sign" theory is incorrect.

Or you could start a new game, click "other workers," search for those with 'Shooting Ability' and manually remove it.

Just saying :shifty:

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With over 5800 workers in the database currently, I'm really not liking the idea of going through and making sure none of them have shooting checked, only to have to go through and recheck it, if this whole "shooting only affects who PRIDE will sign" theory is incorrect.

Or you could start a new game, click "other workers," search for those with 'Shooting Ability' and manually remove it.

Just saying :shifty:

That's fine and dandy... But, what happens if we find out that there is something else in the game that having shooting ability triggers? such as working for an ingame promotion run by an owner that prefers Mixed Martial Arts, as I said before?

Then, I have to have either had a list of all of the people I've removed it from and re-add it, or go to a past update, get the list from that update and again, re-add the shooting ability for those that it applies to... Either way, huge waste of time... Time that could be better spent on other things...

Unless, of course, everyone feels that this shooting being checked thing is more important that adding workers, name changes, title changes, face/heel changes, etc, etc.

-Bill

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Way to go on the defensive. Surely there aren't many workers that have shooting ticked in the first place? I mean, by definition alone, only the vast, vast minority should have it.

I'm not saying remove it from everyone, I'm saying CM Punk shouldn't have it just because he's tight with the Gracies.

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If we are going on the assumption that shooting only effects Pride, then there is so point in even touching it. You could leave it as is and nothing in game will be effected so deleting them all is a waste of time.

However, if we want to assume that "Prefers MMA" owners will take it into account, then we should be realistic. That promoters would not book Kofi Kingston because he played football. If you want to look at it that way you should restrict people who have had some involvement with MMA. Guys like Jack Swagger, while he has catch wrestling experience, I would highly doubt we be used in a "MMA style" promotion, where as someone like Kyle O'Reilly, who wrestles that style would be.

It's super hard to determine who would fit into "shooting" especially since we do not know exactly the purpose of it in game. People do need to let go of the realism of certain stats since they don't reflect how the game is made. My personal view is if you want to assume it effects owners, then look at who has either had MMA experience or would fit into an MMA style promotion and not focus on "he wrestled in high school" or "he played football".

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