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EWR Stats and Scenarios in Theory and Practice


Sousa

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It seems like the computer hires on overness mostly but Nerf might be right. I set it to prefer MMA but it seems to be hiring guys with high brawl stats and Highspots checked.

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I've already simmed a week with Antonio Inoki as the owner of a promotion with no workers... Anyone wanna place bets on what happened?

Running the same sim with Rick Bassman, the other owner in the game that prefers Mixed Martial Arts. Getting the exact same results as I did with Inoki, 3 days in...

-Bill

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Inoki as Owner
Day 1: 11 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 2: 22 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 3: 33 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 4: 35 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 5: No Changes
Day 6: No Changes
Day 7: No Changes

Bassman as Owner

Day 1: 11 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 2: 22 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 3: 33 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 4: 35 Workers signed, all have shooting ticked
Day 5: No Changes
Day 6: No Changes
Day 7: No Changes

-Bill

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Oh well, lets untick all the shooters and to get heat on Inoki and Bassman.

In seriousness though the definition of "shooting" needs to be defined to logically and effectivly use the stat since as of this post all it is used for is Pride (who should not have been in a wrestling game anyway) and owners who prefer the MMA style.

I still stand behind the use of using Pride as an "active in MMA" promotion not specified by one MMA promotion but in general.

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I don't actually understand what the problem is anymore.

The problem is that, in the update thread, someone said that ticking shooting ability "only affected if PRIDE would sign a worker."

Meanwhile, I've now created two in-game promotions with owners that Prefer Mixed Martial Arts as their setting and both of them have only hired workers that have shooting ability ticked. Both hired the exact same workers and both hired the exact same number each day.

Al Snow was one of those workers. I've removed shooting from him and am restarting the sim yet again. I'm gonna bet that, with shooting not being ticked, the owner that prefers Mixed Martial Arts will now not hire Al Snow, when he did before, with the only difference being that Snow previously had shooting ticked.

What I'm predicting will happen is, they will only hire 34 workers, leaving Snow off, or they will hire a 35th worker, an alternate worker that does have shooting ability ticked, in order to conform to the roster limit the game sets for promotions based on what level they are. If either of these happens, it makes it pretty clear to me that shooting needs to be ticked on a worker for an owner that prefers Mixed Martial arts to hire him, thus debunking the whole "shooting ability only affects if PRIDE would sign a worker" thing that took up multiple pages in the update thread.

The bigger problem is, I have been dealing with all of this throughout the day, as opposed to actually updating anything.

-Bill

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So can I ask a question here?

What if "Prefer MMA" was not selected? I mean Inoki leans that way but the IGF is hardly MMA specific, so wouldn't that just make having Inoki as such not realistic as he doesn't just sign individuals who are proficient in a martial art???

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Oh well, lets untick all the shooters and to get heat on Inoki and Bassman.

In seriousness though the definition of "shooting" needs to be defined to logically and effectivly use the stat since as of this post all it is used for is Pride (who should not have been in a wrestling game anyway) and owners who prefer the MMA style.

I still stand behind the use of using Pride as an "active in MMA" promotion not specified by one MMA promotion but in general.

I know you were kidding, but, here's two problems with unticking all shooters:

1: Inoki and Bassman are the only Owners that prefer Mixed Martial Arts currently. The game generates new workers, owners, etc, as time goes on... The game could very well generate more owners that prefer Mixed Martial Arts and if they take over a promotion, it's gonna stay empty because no workers meet their criteria (the criteria being having shooting ticked).

2: I always leave at least one promotion slot open for people that want to add their own promotion, or do Backyard to Global... What if the player wants to run a promotion with an owner that prefers Mixed Martial Arts?

As for the definition of shooting, I said in the thread the following:

"I would personally say that amateur wrestling, catch wrestling, boxing, martial arts and any actual, competitive fighting would comfortably fit under "shoot fighting experience." which I think is fairly accurate, given the scope of what shooting is used for in EWR.

Instead of taking that definition, people wanted to argue the differences between amateur wrestling and catch wrestling (which I realize that there are, but we're talking about checking a box or not here).

BTW, just ran the sim with Bassman as owner and Snow having shooting unchecked. He doesn't hire Snow now, but the same amount of workers are hired every day (11, 11, 11, 2), as were hired in my previous post.

So, pretty confident that having or not having shooting ability ticked affects whether or not an owner with a preference of Mixed Martial arts will hire a worker.

-Bill

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Going onto another part of the discussion:


* What about old wrestlers? A very common complaint levied against EWR scenarios is that they're bloated with wrestlers no one has ever heard of, and I think that's fair, but let's look at why: mod-makers are often reluctant to cut old workers. I made a joke about "being a big Scott Snot fan" in last month's update thread, but it's worth looking at deeper. Scott Snot was a curtain-jerker in XPW over a decade ago and has largely not been seen since. Is anybody clamoring for this guy to make a return? More to the point, is it ever going to happen, or is it more likely that Scott Snot went off to get an associate's in graphic design or something? It's worth mentioning here that it's fairly easy to add a new worker or two to a data set if one wants, so at what point is it worth cutting old talent out of the data entirely?

I don't know what exactly the end game is here, but I think the discussion's worth having anyway, so let's have it!

The bigger question for this would be: What should "Non-Wrestler" be defined as?

Right now in Bill's scenarios, the Non-Wrestler scenario is determined as three entirely different things:

-People who are in a performing role, but do not wrestle regularly, on a pro wrestling broadcast.

-People who are on a part-time schedule and will only wrestle very rarely, for huge events or paydays.

-People who have announced their retirement, but are still kept in the game because people don't want them taken out of the game.

This is a bigger issue than just having old wrestlers in the game. The usual excuse for making people a non-wrestler instead of deleting them is in the event they do decide to make a comeback, they're in the game just in case. This reasoning makes sense- but being a Non-Wrestler doesn't prevent a performer from being hired in-game, and their in-ring stats are never decreased once they become a non-wrestler to help prevent retired wrestlers from being signed up- witness the shooting ability example of Al Snow being signed despite being a Non-Wrestler in TNA.

If you're going to make changes for the old wrestlers', a good starting point would to decide what being a non-wrestler is defined as, make that clear, and go from there.

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What if "Prefer MMA" was not selected? I mean Inoki leans that way but the IGF is hardly MMA specific, so wouldn't that just make having Inoki as such not realistic as he doesn't just sign individuals who are proficient in a martial art???

The argument could be made to switch Inoki's preference... But, what do you switch it to? There's only a few choices in EWR to pick from:

Normal, Brawling, High Flying, Technical Skill, Characters, T and A, Veterans, Mixed Martial Arts are the choices.

As I said somewhere else, I set the owners of Shimmer and NCW-FF to "Prefers T and A" simply because the owners tend to hire female workers when that is their preference, even though it really doesn't reflect the actual promotions of Shimmer and NCW-FF.

Even switching Inoki's preference doesn't solve the problem of if the game creating an owner that prefers Mixed Martial Arts, or a person playing the game that wants an owner that prefers Mixed Martial Arts.

-Bill

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What a shitstorm... I feel bad for Bill. I really do.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I agree with Bill1996 regarding how to handle "shooting" and having it ticked. Amateur wrestling IS a martial art. While the goal is to pin, it's still a combat sport. It teaches you how to neutralize opponents, defend yourself, etc.

I know TUF1 was 2005, but Josh Koscheck debuted with practically JUST amateur wrestling experience. It's not a big leap for someone who did primarily amateur wrestling to go to the UFC considering the main background of fighters these days IS amateur wrestling. UFC is loaded with NCAA Champions, Olympic wrestlers, etc. And they do very well. UFC is points-based if a fight doesn't end, just like wrestling is based on points. Just because UFC encompasses ALL styles of martial arts, it doesn't mean someone has to come from a "striking" art or a "submission" art or a style that emphasizes finishing. Karate is also largely points-based as well, depending on the specific style. I think we could agree that if someone has karate experience you would tick shooting, so you should for amateur wrestling as well, as it IS a martial art. Shootfighting and MIXED martial arts are not necessarily the same thing, as there are still "specialists" in UFC. Guys like Dan Severn, Mirko Cro Cop, and Royce Gracie were highly successful and regarded amongst the greatest fighters of their respective eras despite relying primarily on one martial art and utilizing little else.

But yeah. Enough rambling from me about MMA in a pro wrestling simulator. I think Bill hit the nail on the head - if an owner is chosen/created that "prefers mixed martial arts", then they WILL exclusively choose wrestlers that have shooting ticked. It IS NOT just for Pride FC as rumored in the Stats Update thread. So, I think some people owe Bill an apology for screwing up the data.

I still want to look into Hex editing (or something) the touring promotions so they can be updated.

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To further explore the "shooting" aspect, IIRC "NWA Strong Style" in the original iDOM was set up to hire wrestlers with shoot experience ticked. In that, you have guys like Ken Shamrock, Shelton Benjamin, Scott Norton, Al Snow, and Charlie Haas in the promotion. That's a database built by Ryland.

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Going onto another part of the discussion:

* What about old wrestlers? A very common complaint levied against EWR scenarios is that they're bloated with wrestlers no one has ever heard of, and I think that's fair, but let's look at why: mod-makers are often reluctant to cut old workers. I made a joke about "being a big Scott Snot fan" in last month's update thread, but it's worth looking at deeper. Scott Snot was a curtain-jerker in XPW over a decade ago and has largely not been seen since. Is anybody clamoring for this guy to make a return? More to the point, is it ever going to happen, or is it more likely that Scott Snot went off to get an associate's in graphic design or something? It's worth mentioning here that it's fairly easy to add a new worker or two to a data set if one wants, so at what point is it worth cutting old talent out of the data entirely?

I don't know what exactly the end game is here, but I think the discussion's worth having anyway, so let's have it!

The bigger question for this would be: What should "Non-Wrestler" be defined as?

Right now in Bill's scenarios, the Non-Wrestler scenario is determined as three entirely different things:

-People who are in a performing role, but do not wrestle regularly, on a pro wrestling broadcast.

-People who are on a part-time schedule and will only wrestle very rarely, for huge events or paydays.

-People who have announced their retirement, but are still kept in the game because people don't want them taken out of the game.

This is a bigger issue than just having old wrestlers in the game. The usual excuse for making people a non-wrestler instead of deleting them is in the event they do decide to make a comeback, they're in the game just in case. This reasoning makes sense- but being a Non-Wrestler doesn't prevent a performer from being hired in-game, and their in-ring stats are never decreased once they become a non-wrestler to help prevent retired wrestlers from being signed up- witness the shooting ability example of Al Snow being signed despite being a Non-Wrestler in TNA.

If you're going to make changes for the old wrestlers', a good starting point would to decide what being a non-wrestler is defined as, make that clear, and go from there.

Don't disagree with any of this... Just keep in mind that Non Wrestlers cannot wrestle on TV Shows, only on the monthly events.

The main issue is, EWR doesn't reflect real life very well. For example, in the game, the most accurate position for Vickie Guerrero is Non-Wrestler. But, she has wrestled on RAW before.

Meanwhile, Edge, who will likely never wrestle again, has made appearances on RAW, in Non-Wrestling capacities... But, in EWR, you can have him wrestle at the monthly PPV's.

As a result, it's going to be very difficult to clearly define what a non-wrestler is, as personally, I could find arguments for all three of the situations that you mention above.

-Bill

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