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EWR Stats and Scenarios in Theory and Practice


Sousa

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What if "Prefer MMA" was not selected? I mean Inoki leans that way but the IGF is hardly MMA specific, so wouldn't that just make having Inoki as such not realistic as he doesn't just sign individuals who are proficient in a martial art???

The argument could be made to switch Inoki's preference... But, what do you switch it to? There's only a few choices in EWR to pick from:

Normal, Brawling, High Flying, Technical Skill, Characters, T and A, Veterans, Mixed Martial Arts are the choices.

As I said somewhere else, I set the owners of Shimmer and NCW-FF to "Prefers T and A" simply because the owners tend to hire female workers when that is their preference, even though it really doesn't reflect the actual promotions of Shimmer and NCW-FF.

Even switching Inoki's preference doesn't solve the problem of if the game creating an owner that prefers Mixed Martial Arts, or a person playing the game that wants an owner that prefers Mixed Martial Arts.

-Bill

Cool, I hadn't thought that :)

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WORKERS WITH SHOOTING ABILITY IN ORIGINAL DATA BY RYLAND:
"Pitbull" Anthony Durante
Bas Rutten
Chad Collyer
Dan Severn
Eric Gracie
Frank Shamrock
Jimmy Rave
Ken Shamrock
Masada
Mike Barton
Nunzio
Perry Saturn
PJ Friedman
Ron Waterman
Sean O'Haire
Tank Abbott
The Predator
Tito Ortiz
Tom Howard
Vader
William Regal
So looking at that list it looks like "shooters" can be broken down into three categories...
Legitimate Shootfighting/MMA Experience:
Bas Rutten, Dan Severn, Eric Gracie, Frank Shamrock, Ken Shamrock, PJ Friedman, Ron Waterman, Sean O'Haire, Tank Abbott, The Predator, Tito Ortiz, Tom Howard
High School/Collegate/Olympic Wrestling Experience:
Chad Collyer, Nunzio, and a slew of the MMA guys
Known Bad Asses and Tough Guys:
Anthony Durante, Masada, Mike Barton (also had 2 MMA fights), Perry Saturn, Vader, William Regal
Oh, and JIMMY FUCKING RAVE???
So I think it is safe to say, judging by the data that Ryland put together himself, the notion that "only guys likely to tour with pride should have shooting ability ticked" is false.
That said, Ryland himself didn't seem to really explore the stat all of the way through as an amateur wrestler like Chad Collyer was included but he didn't tick it for guys like Kurt Angle, Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas, or The Steiner Brothers.
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Why didn't we just PM Ryland? He pops up everytime there is a thread about another wrestling sim so he obviously watches the board.

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Going onto another part of the discussion:

* What about old wrestlers? A very common complaint levied against EWR scenarios is that they're bloated with wrestlers no one has ever heard of, and I think that's fair, but let's look at why: mod-makers are often reluctant to cut old workers. I made a joke about "being a big Scott Snot fan" in last month's update thread, but it's worth looking at deeper. Scott Snot was a curtain-jerker in XPW over a decade ago and has largely not been seen since. Is anybody clamoring for this guy to make a return? More to the point, is it ever going to happen, or is it more likely that Scott Snot went off to get an associate's in graphic design or something? It's worth mentioning here that it's fairly easy to add a new worker or two to a data set if one wants, so at what point is it worth cutting old talent out of the data entirely?

I don't know what exactly the end game is here, but I think the discussion's worth having anyway, so let's have it!

The bigger question for this would be: What should "Non-Wrestler" be defined as?

Right now in Bill's scenarios, the Non-Wrestler scenario is determined as three entirely different things:

-People who are in a performing role, but do not wrestle regularly, on a pro wrestling broadcast.

-People who are on a part-time schedule and will only wrestle very rarely, for huge events or paydays.

-People who have announced their retirement, but are still kept in the game because people don't want them taken out of the game.

This is a bigger issue than just having old wrestlers in the game. The usual excuse for making people a non-wrestler instead of deleting them is in the event they do decide to make a comeback, they're in the game just in case. This reasoning makes sense- but being a Non-Wrestler doesn't prevent a performer from being hired in-game, and their in-ring stats are never decreased once they become a non-wrestler to help prevent retired wrestlers from being signed up- witness the shooting ability example of Al Snow being signed despite being a Non-Wrestler in TNA.

If you're going to make changes for the old wrestlers', a good starting point would to decide what being a non-wrestler is defined as, make that clear, and go from there.

Don't disagree with any of this... Just keep in mind that Non Wrestlers cannot wrestle on TV Shows, only on the monthly events.

The main issue is, EWR doesn't reflect real life very well. For example, in the game, the most accurate position for Vickie Guerrero is Non-Wrestler. But, she has wrestled on RAW before.

Meanwhile, Edge, who will likely never wrestle again, has made appearances on RAW, in Non-Wrestling capacities... But, in EWR, you can have him wrestle at the monthly PPV's.

As a result, it's going to be very difficult to clearly define what a non-wrestler is, as personally, I could find arguments for all three of the situations that you mention above.

-Bill

If you need the definition, just my own theory, I would say the closer theory would be:

-People who are in a performing role, but do not wrestle regularly, on a pro wrestling broadcast.

I would have all of these people get converted into Managers- which would fit their role better in EWR:

-It's still a non-wrestling role [and a Manager can play an authority figure in EWR as well].

-Most, if not all, people in that role would be in a position where they "could" have a managerial client (example: Vickie having Dolph Ziggler/Jack Swagger].

-People who are on a part-time schedule and will only wrestle very rarely, for huge events or paydays.

I would use this for Non-Wrestler in-game, followed with the people who we know will medically never be cleared to wrestle again (Edge, etc.). This way, you lessen the really unfeasible wrestlers dramatically and keep the Non-Wrestling role for the part-time performers more than anyone else.

In addition to this, I'd say to look at lowering the stats of the medically-based non-wrestlers dramatically. Using the Edge example you gave as well: Edge will likely never wrestle again, but in EWR he "could" wrestle on PPVs as a Non-Wrestler. Having said that, however- Bret Hart is a Non-Wrestler, and also retired due to medical reasons. Eventually, Bret Hart did wrestle a few matches- but they were both more angle than match. Even then, people knew going into his matches Bret Hart wasn't going to turn back the clock and put on a 60-minute clinic as good as his matches in the '90s in his two matches- and his stats (49B-2S-63T) reflect that even if Bret Hart wrestled a match tomorrow, he's lost enough of a step so that the old Bret Hart is never coming back.

By contrast, Edge retired for medical reasons in 2011, but his stats were never lowered. It's not enough that Edge "could" wrestle again at a PPV in EWR, but according to EWR, Edge's 70B-37S-65T means that he'd not only wrestle, but Edge would never miss a beat and wrestle those matches as well as he did when he retired. Lowering Edge, or any other medically-barred wrestler's stats, would reflect this, make it less likely to use them in matches, and by lowering their EWR stats, would make it less likely that CPU-controlled companies will hire them and giving them huge pushes.

-People who have announced their retirement, but are still kept in the game because people don't want them taken out of the game.

-If they're going to be kept in the game, I would say to not change their status to Non-Wrestler anymore. The very reason that the wrestlers who announce their retirement are kept in the game has always been "if they come out of retirement, we have their stats already in the game" anyways- so making them a Non-Wrestler is basically adding a slight inconvenience that isn't particularly necessary.

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Everyone keep in mind that this thread is meant for a general discussion of an "ideal stat update for EWR," not necessarily in regards to Bill's stat updates directly. So while a lot of the discussion can be implemented with Bill's update, there's really no need to defend or get bent out of shape with anything to due with Bill's stats. No one is (or should be) trying to force Bill to implement anything. Nothing should be taken as an attack (or posted spitefully). I think some good discussion on the general way people here feel about different aspects of the game can breath new life into the game.

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No one is (or should be) trying to force Bill to implement anything. Nothing should be taken as an attack (or posted spitefully). I think some good discussion on the general way people here feel about different aspects of the game can breath new life into the game.

I want to emphasize this as well. To paraphrase something I told to Idol elsewhere, one of my goals with this thread is to steer what feels like a very interesting discussion about the nature of stats and scenarios (rather than just the numbers) away from a place where it's going to get shouted down. Write this off as an ORANGE GUY GRUDGE, whatever, that's your prerogative, but shit, I'm thirty years old and have two kids and a full-time job teaching English, I have neither the time nor the gumption to wage an ASSAULT on this one dude. I started this thread to facilitate a discussion that was, in my opinion, being stifled. Whether or not it was in the right place or not is up for debate, but putting Bill up on a cross because I tried to move a discussion he thought was distracting out of his thread doesn't add up.

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What a shitstorm... I feel bad for Bill. I really do.

---

So, I think some people owe Bill an apology for screwing up the data.

Why may I ask? As Sousa has pointed out the point here was not a direct assault at Bill, Bill is the one who waded in and then pointed out I, along with some other people were wrong, but at no point in this thread did we force Bill to do all of this, anybody could have done it with the same result, he did it off his own back, which he should be thanked for (Thanks for clarifying this Bill), but when people are really engaging for the first time in a while to try and help to improve the data sets that are out there does anyone really need an apology?

It would be nice if this thing wouldn't happen in the same negative manner and things would get done rather than us all sat here bickering, feeling sorry for ourselves and each other.

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So I think it is safe to say, judging by the data that Ryland put together himself, the notion that "only guys likely to tour with pride should have shooting ability ticked" is false.

Just to complicate things further... the original data was actually done by RaveX :shifty:

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What a shitstorm... I feel bad for Bill. I really do.

---

So, I think some people owe Bill an apology for screwing up the data.

I assume that person should be fusionfx, for starting the shooting argument in the first place by suggesting that Kofi Kingston should have it.
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Just on the 'shooting thing' --- if it also affects who will be hired by owners who prefer 'MMA' doesn't that kind of tell you that it's designed for MMA guys?

In regards to the ravex data list of shooters above... Bassman as UPW promoter didn't it run as a MMA style promotion or sign MMA guys, it was WWE style guys like John Cena, big muscle guys, as it was a WWE developmental type place. Bassman did however run a MMA company in California called Valor Fighting, doesn't mean as a wrestling promoter he should be hiring shooters though, but I guess that's why that happened.

Inoki when he was running things in NJPW had a hard-on for MMA fighters (still does) and brought one in to be IWGP Heavyweight champ, and his current promotion IGF is shoot-style, and purports to feature MMA bouts (funnily enough he brought in the exact same guy to be Heavyweight champ there too). So he should definitely have a MMA preference.

The list of guys with shooting ticked in ravex data actually reinforces my point about who should have shooting I think,

Durante

Rutten

Severn

Gracie

Shamrock

Shamrock

Barton

Waterman

O'Haire

Abbot

Predator

Ortiz

Friedman

Howard

All of these guy had MMA fights, and they make up the vast majority of that 'shooter' list, also note the fact that very few people in the data actually have shooting, because it's supposed to be rare.

The rest of the guys on that list are logical inclusions on some level, except for Jimmy Rave (a joke?).

Collyer (Inoki Dojo), Nunzio (UWF), and Vader (UWF) all worked shoot-style matches, i.e. worked-MMA.

This leaves only three guys (four if you include Rave, but no idea why he's there):

Masada? No idea.

Saturn was a former US Army Ranger, so I guess people assumed he was trained pretty seriously in MMA as a result.

Regal was a former bare-knuckler fight wasn't he? Maybe that was kayfabe, if not that is competitive fighting, and Regal can work shoot-style too.

---------------

The fact that women can tour with Pride doesn't mean they should have shooting ticked because Pride was not for female fighters, it's like giving male wrestlers high sex appeal in TEW 13, it's not designed for them to use that stat. It creates unintended and unrealistic consequences, like Sara Del Ray in a real MMA promotion - Pride FC. It's possible for that to happen in game, but it shouldn't be happening is the point.

This is the thing, when you decide whether or not to give someone shooting you have to consider all the game consequences. Ignoring the fact that Inoki has never hired a women, and Bassman didn't run a MMA style wrestling promotion, if you give women shooting they will appear in Pride, which doesn't make sense.

This is the same reason why you need to consider carefully what males get shooting because they could also end up in a MMA promotion, I don't think the fact that Inoki prefers these guys or Bassman does matters in that context.

Shooting does

-Set who tours with Pride

-Affects who signs with guys who 'prefer MMA'

People are right to point out it has more than one effect, I thought it just affected Pride tours - but affecting also who signs with a promoter who 'prefers MMA' doesn't undermine my initial points at all... i.e. the stat should be reserved for MMA guys. The bulk of the list posted, most of the guys also have appeared for Pride which I dont think is a coincidence.

The debate about whether amateur wrestling counts as 'shoot fighting' experience I feel is moot because most the of wrestlers who had that background in high school or college do not have the level required to transition to MMA anyway. Pride didn't hire US guys with amateur wrestling backgrounds, everyone who fought in Pride had MMA training beforehand. We can't give shooting to a guy with amateur wrestling because we think that counts as 'fighting' because of the effect it has in the game. You can't just assume that people would be capable or want to fight in MMA which is a different sport altogether. You need MMA training to do that, just having wrestling skills isn't enough (maybe this why Kurt Angle didn't have shooting ticked?). Owners that prefer 'MMA guys' aren't hiring amateur wrestlers either, they're hiring 'MMA guys'. So unless people consider amateur wrestling to be a MMA it's not relevant to the discussion of shooting.

I feel like the fact that in pro-wrestling 'shooters' are often considered to be the guys who do have that amateur grappling background has muddied the waters.

Edited by snakesonaplane
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I think potential is important. In 2004 Brock Lesnar only had amateur wrestling experience, not MMA training. Same with Bobby Lashley. You can't predict a guy like Batista getting into MMA, but I think guys with obvious potential to make the transition like Lesnar and Lashley should have it ticked.

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I think potential is important. In 2004 Brock Lesnar only had amateur wrestling experience, not MMA training. Same with Bobby Lashley. You can't predict a guy like Batista getting into MMA, but I think guys with obvious potential to make the transition like Lesnar and Lashley should have it ticked.

But following that logic, it's entirely up to the mod-maker to justify his decision regardless if it's nonsense. Which is kind of the problem we're trying to fix here :shifty:

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I think potential is important. In 2004 Brock Lesnar only had amateur wrestling experience, not MMA training. Same with Bobby Lashley. You can't predict a guy like Batista getting into MMA, but I think guys with obvious potential to make the transition like Lesnar and Lashley should have it ticked.

I actually agree with this, though that sort of thing is obviously hard to judge and tends to become a bit too subjective which isn't that useful unless used sparingly. There are room for exceptions though and people with clear potential should be considered.

On those guys though, they did sort of leave wrestling, announce they were going to do MMA, and then started training for MMA; which is different to being in wrestling and then suddenly announcing you're going to Japan to fight in a MMA promotion, with no MMA training under your belt. Which is why we need to be hesitant to give it out to guys with no MMA background as of yet.

However your premise is solid; in the previous discussion on this subject I made the point that obviously high level grapplers and freaks even without MMA training should be candidates for shooting. Like Kurt Angle has never wrestled MMA and probably never will because of that dime neck of his, but wind back the clock for a years and he would have deserved a tick because he didn't just have amateur experience, he was the best in the world. I think this is why Saturn has shooting in that set above, he was a former US Army Ranger so the fighting instinct and training is there. There's always room for freaks in MMA, Akebono, Giant Silva, and every other 'Giant' ever brought into MMA in Japan ever. In Japan they have the 'amateur guy' equivalent also... in high level Judo practioners, though the transition potential to MMA is more obvious there.

Interesting discussion, but can you give me some examples of who you think might fit that bill today?

Edited by snakesonaplane
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Just on the 'shooting thing' --- if it also affects who will be hired by owners who prefer 'MMA' doesn't that kind of tell you that it's designed for MMA guys?

In regards to the ravex data list of shooters above... Bassman as UPW promoter didn't it run as a MMA style promotion or sign MMA guys, it was WWE style guys like John Cena, big muscle guys, as it was a WWE developmental type place. Bassman did however run a MMA company in California called Valor Fighting, doesn't mean as a wrestling promoter he should be hiring shooters though, but I guess that's why that happened.

Inoki when he was running things in NJPW had a hard-on for MMA fighters (still does) and brought one in to be IWGP Heavyweight champ, and his current promotion IGF is shoot-style, and purports to feature MMA bouts (funnily enough he brought in the exact same guy to be Heavyweight champ there too). So he should definitely have a MMA preference.

The list of guys with shooting ticked in ravex data actually reinforces my point about who should have shooting I think,

Durante

Rutten

Severn

Gracie

Shamrock

Shamrock

Barton

Waterman

O'Haire

Abbot

Predator

Ortiz

Friedman

Howard

All of these guy had MMA fights, and they make up the vast majority of that 'shooter' list, also note the fact that very few people in the data actually have shooting, because it's supposed to be rare.

The rest of the guys on that list are logical inclusions on some level, except for Jimmy Rave (a joke?).

Collyer (Inoki Dojo), Nunzio (UWF), and Vader (UWF) all worked shoot-style matches, i.e. worked-MMA.

This leaves only three guys (four if you include Rave, but no idea why he's there):

Masada? No idea.

Saturn was a former US Army Ranger, so I guess people assumed he was trained pretty seriously in MMA as a result.

Regal was a former bare-knuckler fight wasn't he? Maybe that was kayfabe, if not that is competitive fighting, and Regal can work shoot-style too.

---------------

The fact that women can tour with Pride doesn't mean they should have shooting ticked because Pride was not for female fighters, it's like giving male wrestlers high sex appeal in TEW 13, it's not designed for them to use that stat. It creates unintended and unrealistic consequences, like Sara Del Ray in a real MMA promotion - Pride FC. It's possible for that to happen in game, but it shouldn't be happening is the point.

This is the thing, when you decide whether or not to give someone shooting you have to consider all the game consequences. Ignoring the fact that Inoki has never hired a women, and Bassman didn't run a MMA style wrestling promotion, if you give women shooting they will appear in Pride, which doesn't make sense.

This is the same reason why you need to consider carefully what males get shooting because they could also end up in a MMA promotion, I don't think the fact that Inoki prefers these guys or Bassman does matters in that context.

Shooting does

-Set who tours with Pride

-Affects who signs with guys who 'prefer MMA'

People are right to point out it has more than one effect, I thought it just affected Pride tours - but affecting also who signs with a promoter who 'prefers MMA' doesn't undermine my initial points at all... i.e. the stat should be reserved for MMA guys. The bulk of the list posted, most of the guys also have appeared for Pride which I dont think is a coincidence.

The debate about whether amateur wrestling counts as 'shoot fighting' experience I feel is moot because most the of wrestlers who had that background in high school or college do not have the level required to transition to MMA anyway. Pride didn't hire US guys with amateur wrestling backgrounds, everyone who fought in Pride had MMA training beforehand. We can't give shooting to a guy with amateur wrestling because we think that counts as 'fighting' because of the effect it has in the game. You can't just assume that people would be capable or want to fight in MMA which is a different sport altogether. You need MMA training to do that, just having wrestling skills isn't enough (maybe this why Kurt Angle didn't have shooting ticked?). Owners that prefer 'MMA guys' aren't hiring amateur wrestlers either, they're hiring 'MMA guys'. So unless people consider amateur wrestling to be a MMA it's not relevant to the discussion of shooting.

I feel like the fact that in pro-wrestling 'shooters' are often considered to be the guys who do have that amateur grappling background has muddied the waters.

With Saturn, I'm assuming it's because his style implemented a lot of martial arts kicks, leg sweeps, and submissions. He used a pretty vicious, realistic approach in the ring. Probably the same can be said for guys like Regal and Vader. In addition, Collyer and Guido had offenses based on strong takedown skills and submissions. I'm really struggling to justify the "shooting ability" trait being as narrow as you seem to think it is with guys like Rutten, Ortiz and the like being the only ones that should have it. Most of the MMA guys have been taken completely out of modern data sets as it is. It looks like the gauge was a bit broader to include workers who worked rough and tough, realistic styles.

Phil Parent from the Rave X team is still active over at GDS. I've sent him a PM - maybe he can shed some light.

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I say forget if a worker has had the training, just check it for anyone that we can verify that has had a paid MMA match. Ken Shamrock? Yes. Mike Tyson? No. (I honestly don't know if Mike Tyson is in the data, but it would not surprise me).

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I say forget if a worker has had the training, just check it for anyone that we can verify that has had a paid MMA match. Ken Shamrock? Yes. Mike Tyson? No. (I honestly don't know if Mike Tyson is in the data, but it would not surprise me).

He's my X-Division champion!

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