EWR Stats and Scenarios in Theory and Practice

[Colly]

Since it is so subjective shouldn't it ultimately come down to the mod makers decision? Since it isn't going to affect Pride, and the only use for the stat is to flag guys who'd be picked up by an owner who likes 'MMA style' to run his wrestling organisation, I personally would consider flagging the likes of CM Punk who bring a lot of that style to their worked matches. This might not reflect someone elses opinion, but its my mod and I'm sticking to it!

As long as that is stated, I can't see any issues. No Kofi Kingston though.

[Lineker]

Who, Tyson or Shamrock?

Isn't it obvious? Tyson.

[Colly]

Nosyt backwards Mike...

[Mick]

The entire point of this thread, is so that it when it comes down to the decision of the mod maker, we don't have someone saying "oh, they wrestled in college" *ticks shooting*. What you are suggesting is a step backward.

[Skummy]

So can I ask a question here?

What if "Prefer MMA" was not selected? I mean Inoki leans that way but the IGF is hardly MMA specific, so wouldn't that just make having Inoki as such not realistic as he doesn't just sign individuals who are proficient in a martial art???

Sidetracking from the main point of the thread a little, but I'd argue that Inoki is one of the only people that should have "prefers MMA" ticked. IGF is, increasingly, focused on pseudo-MMA, with less focus on the odder aspects of their booking, Japanese veterans and ex-WWE guys popping up - that sort of thing, it seems, was more of Chono's hand in things.

A non-wrestler is someone who doesn't wrestle on a regular schedule, or a full-time active performer who is not a wrestler. How that relates to most retired wrestlers is debatable, as many retired wrestlers are unlikely to pop up as General Managers, Commissioners or the like, and keeping them in can just muddy the water. But in lieu of a TEW-esque "Out Of The Business/On Hiatus" option, it may be the best way around it.

[snakesonaplane]

To Colly,

It does affect Pride though!

With Saturn, I'm assuming it's because his style implemented a lot of martial arts kicks, leg sweeps, and submissions. He used a pretty vicious, realistic approach in the ring. Probably the same can be said for guys like Regal and Vader. In addition, Collyer and Guido had offenses based on strong takedown skills and submissions. I'm really struggling to justify the "shooting ability" trait being as narrow as you seem to think it is with guys like Rutten, Ortiz and the like being the only ones that should have it. Most of the MMA guys have been taken completely out of modern data sets as it is. It looks like the gauge was a bit broader to include workers who worked rough and tough, realistic styles.

Phil Parent from the Rave X team is still active over at GDS. I've sent him a PM - maybe he can shed some light.

It's about the effect is has on the game though, we can't change the mechanics so to avoid Kofi Kingston in Pride we have to draw a line somewhere; given that shooting affects pride tours and hiring for promoters who prefer 'MMA guys' I don't see why my argument for the shoot stat doesn't gel with that. It's not about how people actually wrestle in pro-wrestling matches. If you give guys shooting they'll end up in Pride (or be hired by people who want 'MMA guys'), hence the criteria being used by me heavily weights towards MMA fighters. Like I said in a post above I do agree there is some room for other guys who have never wrestled in MMA but have elite skills, and who with training could transition. Collyer, Guido and Vader all wrestled in shoot-style wrestling matches in their career, i.e. fake MMA. I could see the point of putting in people who have worked shoot-style in legit shoot-style companies like UWF or Battlarts, like those guys.

The problem with making the definition broader than that is you end up ticking shooting for guys like Davey Richards who just kick hard, basically if you don't use some kind of logical criteria you end up doing stats based off kayfabe.

That said, this is only my opinion - if people don't care about my reasoning then fine, if they want to broaden the stat to mean 'realistic fighting styles' then that's fine too. I'm focusing on how the game will respond to our input, I agree it's not a perfect simulation, but unless we can change how the game functions I think it is the best way to implement the feature. Ultimately though there is going to be an element of subjectivity in all of this, such as with the 'what about guys who could do MMA in the future?' argument - and i've probably already said too much on this subject

Edited October 30, 2013 by snakesonaplane

[Azazel]

Here is my view.

We know what Shooting effects so we should work around that.

Just because someone has potential or competed in another sport doesn't mean they know how to shoot. If Inoki opened a real promotion he would not go "I think Damien Sandow could have a future in MMA, I'm going to hire him right now!". He is not going to go "Kofi Kingston played College Football, I'm going to hire him!" He isn't even going to go "Al Snow can shoot on people, I'm going to hire him!"

Any decently trained wrestler knows how to shoot wrestle (as in do things for real). I know a ton of submission and how to do them safely and how to actually break bones if I wanted to put a bit of pressure on them. I would not give myself shooting. Al Snow, who trained me, is the same way. He can do a ton of shoot wrestling but he is not a shooter. There is a huge difference in it.

I believe shooting should go to those who actually deserve it, that would be hired by Pride or be hired by an "MMA Style" promotion. That is not your amateur wrestlers, football players or althletes. It should go to people who have serious MMA training. Obviously the guys who have partaken in inactual fights and guys we can confirm have legitimate training.

An extreme example would be Mike Bailey. He does Tae Kwon Do and competes regularly at a high level. However, even with that background I wouldn't even suggest shooting for him since he wouldn't fit the mold for either an MMA promotion or Pride.

Also, just because they work that kind of style I wouldn't give them shooting, because a ton of people can do that.

[Mick]

Hence, my argument about the difference between Shamrock and Tyson

[Reflecto Is My Favorite Poster]

A non-wrestler is someone who doesn't wrestle on a regular schedule, or a full-time active performer who is not a wrestler. How that relates to most retired wrestlers is debatable, as many retired wrestlers are unlikely to pop up as General Managers, Commissioners or the like, and keeping them in can just muddy the water. But in lieu of a TEW-esque "Out Of The Business/On Hiatus" option, it may be the best way around it.

But that also ties into my argument. There is no "Out of the Business/On Hiatus" option in the game, meaning a retired wrestler who is kept in the game is unlikely to pop up as a GM/Commissioner/announcer (since many of the Non-Wrestlers don't, and shouldn't, have announcer ticked). They're mostly in to keep their stats valid in the (entirely reasonable) event that if they make a comeback, then their stats don't need to be remade again- but at the same time, as long as they 'are' in the game, then another company in the game will just sign them anyway. With those in mind, using Non-Wrestler as the Out of the Business/On Hiatus option doesn't really work as well either.

[Mick]

So if they're out of the business or on hiatus, remove them.

[Skummy]

So if they're out of the business or on hiatus, remove them.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. Obviously it's something to look at on a case-by-case basis, but if they're not likely to show up, remove them.

The argument that you'd have to create their stats all over again doesn't really carry much weight when that takes all of, what, a minute or two? It's not like worker's stats in EWR are particularly detailed, and it'll be a rare occurence that you'd have to do it anyway, as I doubt we'll see 100 people come out of retirement in a single month any time soon.

It comes down to the central point of this thread - what's more important to people, size or functionality? Do we want a huge database full of guys you probably won't ever use, or have never heard of, or one that plays well and is tailored around the gameplay mechanics rather than being exhaustive?

[Nerf]

Yeah, for me, "non-wrestler" means authority figure, active legend or part-time wrestler.

[IDOL]

Does EWR actually run all that wonky with a big database of workers? I know TEW is pretty much forget about it if you have over 3,000 active workers and their relationships... but I don't think I've ever had all that much of a problem with EWR since I ditched my Windows XP computer moons ago. Note: this isn't a slight that the amount of workers shouldn't be reduced, I'm seriously wondering if people have playability problems.

[Mick]

Also, on the non-wrestler issue and authority figures, can't managers take that on that role as well?

[Nerf]

If they have an authority-related gimmick, yes; anyone can.

[Skummy]

Does EWR actually run all that wonky with a big database of workers? I know TEW is pretty much forget about it if you have over 3,000 active workers and their relationships... but I don't think I've ever had all that much of a problem with EWR since I ditched my Windows XP computer moons ago. Note: this isn't a slight that the amount of workers shouldn't be reduced, I'm seriously wondering if people have playability problems.

I'm not sure about playability problems - it's been years since I last played EWR at all - but it can take an age to load if there's too much data in there, and when half that data is expendable, then why keep it?

Which brings me to something else that really needs addressing; relationships. It's another thing that constantly gets added, or at least suggested, to EWR stats updates with very little regard to the actual gameplay mechanics. Just because Wrestler X said he liked Wrestler Y in an interview doesn't warrant a friendship relationship, and not everybody who's ever appeared on Art Of Wrestling should have a friendship relationship with Colt Cabana. It should entirely come down to what these relationships affect in the game, and how feasible they are.

Not to mention that, in running monthly updates, there's always the chance of running up a backlog of "relationships" that are completely false. A dirtsheet mentions that two guys don't like each other, it's added to the database. Six months later, it's a complete non-issue, and was probably never true in the first place, yet the relationship is still there.

[mkpunk]

I'm not sure about playability problems - it's been years since I last played EWR at all - but it can take an age to load if there's too much data in there, and when half that data is expendable, then why keep it?

Which brings me to something else that really needs addressing; relationships. It's another thing that constantly gets added, or at least suggested, to EWR stats updates with very little regard to the actual gameplay mechanics. Just because Wrestler X said he liked Wrestler Y in an interview doesn't warrant a friendship relationship, and not everybody who's ever appeared on Art Of Wrestling should have a friendship relationship with Colt Cabana. It should entirely come down to what these relationships affect in the game, and how feasible they are.

Not to mention that, in running monthly updates, there's always the chance of running up a backlog of "relationships" that are completely false. A dirtsheet mentions that two guys don't like each other, it's added to the database. Six months later, it's a complete non-issue, and was probably never true in the first place, yet the relationship is still there.

Perfect case in point Homicide and Dan Maff. Maff and Cide had a true legit falling out in March 2005 and basically blackballed him with any promoter who worked with Homicide. Maff and Cide eventually got on speaking terms (longer than six months) when Cide couldn't work JAPW as often due to TNA commitments and brought back Maff into JAPW. However this wasn't public knowledge for along time (thanks to the recent event at an ICW show where they had a Mega Powers Handshake moment.)

Some of the relationships fall and aren't as good as they once was and some stay strong. CM Punk for instance is pretty loyal and didn't need to say put over Chris Hero, Raven and Samoa Joe on his Best in the World dvd but he did. Why because he is true to his friends. He insisted Joey Mercury and Luke Gallows being in the SES for the same reason rather than some random guys for the same reason. Mike Quackenbush is another case who is loyal to his students (taking from the Japanese logic.) Now say Sami Zayn (for example) is not as loyal to his all of friends.

To me the problem is you can run any side of this spectrum so for every Quackenbush there is a true loyalty, there is another trainer who isn't.

[Azazel]

I'm not sure about playability problems - it's been years since I last played EWR at all - but it can take an age to load if there's too much data in there, and when half that data is expendable, then why keep it?

Which brings me to something else that really needs addressing; relationships. It's another thing that constantly gets added, or at least suggested, to EWR stats updates with very little regard to the actual gameplay mechanics. Just because Wrestler X said he liked Wrestler Y in an interview doesn't warrant a friendship relationship, and not everybody who's ever appeared on Art Of Wrestling should have a friendship relationship with Colt Cabana. It should entirely come down to what these relationships affect in the game, and how feasible they are.

Not to mention that, in running monthly updates, there's always the chance of running up a backlog of "relationships" that are completely false. A dirtsheet mentions that two guys don't like each other, it's added to the database. Six months later, it's a complete non-issue, and was probably never true in the first place, yet the relationship is still there.

Perfect case in point Homicide and Dan Maff. Maff and Cide had a true legit falling out in March 2005 and basically blackballed him with any promoter who worked with Homicide. Maff and Cide eventually got on speaking terms (longer than six months) when Cide couldn't work JAPW as often due to TNA commitments and brought back Maff into JAPW. However this wasn't public knowledge for along time (thanks to the recent event at an ICW show where they had a Mega Powers Handshake moment.)

Some of the relationships fall and aren't as good as they once was and some stay strong. CM Punk for instance is pretty loyal and didn't need to say put over Chris Hero, Raven and Samoa Joe on his Best in the World dvd but he did. Why because he is true to his friends. He insisted Joey Mercury and Luke Gallows being in the SES for the same reason rather than some random guys for the same reason. Mike Quackenbush is another case who is loyal to his students (taking from the Japanese logic.) Now say Sami Zayn (for example) is not as loyal to his all of friends.

To me the problem is you can run any side of this spectrum so for every Quackenbush there is a true loyalty, there is another trainer who isn't.

The hell does that mean?

[Sousa]

He was just using a hypothetical; it's not really that much of a brainbustaaaaaaaaaaaah.

[LittleDaniel]

He means that Zayn never learned how to be a good friend when he was down in Generico's orphanage.