Hatred

[Whisper]

Pretty much what he said ^^. Refusing to sell a game is, in no way, censorship.

A whole lot of fuss and attention seeking over nothing. Christ, imagine if we were talking about a game that wasn't utter shite.

[Quom]

I don't know that Steam really falls into that argument though. It isn't like they're a service aimed at children or families (which is why I personally have no issue with GTA not being sold at Target over here since it was being advertised with children's toys). They already have games that feature killing of innocent people without it adding to the story. Plus their total lack of transparency around why it isn't allowed on there worries me. In the old days it would have made sense (back when Steam actually had some semblance of quality control on the stuff they sold).

I dunno, I don't want the game, I can't see the point of the game, I personally think they people it's going to appeal to can't legally buy it since it should be 18+. I just kind of wish it would fuck off or just get released already so we can get the drama over and done with.

[Sousa]

Are there really no other online platforms where they could distribute the game, though? I don't know, on one hand I want to say "yeah but that's just steam" and then I look at the sheer volume of games that I already have on Steam and it's like, yeah, this is probably a market issue.

Fuck Hatred and fuck the guys who made it, though. This shouldn't be anyone's censorship hill to die on.

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

This whole "right to free speech" and censorship only means that the company should be allowed to make the game. Companies like Steam are then totally within their right never to have it available for purchase. Bloggers and reviewers have the freedom to totally ignore or pan the game and newspapers and media outlets are totally within their rights to vilify and slag off the game.

[KevinStorm]

Even though this isn't censorship, there are very rare times when censorship is a good thing and is needed.

This is one of them.

Free speech means that sometimes you're going to get offended, and all censoring ever does is make the censoree feel even more justified because it makes it seem as if they have something worth saying.

Ellis is dead on, if the idiot bloggers hadn't posted and Steam hadn't pulled the game, this would just be another shitty forgotten indie title, it's sad (though not unexpected) to see people being manipulated and playing into their hands.

Free speech applies to government, not private companies. Steam can refuse to carry whatever game for whatever reason.

[EWB's Best Poster.]

It's not a freedom of speech issue. These guys have the right to make a game. Steam has the right to not sell it.

They chose to use that right. If anyone honestly thinks it's about censorship, it's really about a company chi oozing what it wants to represent it. They don't have to choose everything. And they didn't.

[Quom]

The flip side is that Steam haven't said why they won't sell it. Which isn't really great for developers. As you've all said it's their decision to make. But I do think they owe developers and customers some sort or response. Especially given some of the games they do sell aren't worlds away from this game in regards to content (Postal 1, Manhunt).

[EWB's Best Poster.]

There is a certain irony to people saying "we wouldn't care if people stopped talking about it" and "why won't they issue a statement about it?

[apsham]

Oh a theoretical level? Yes, let's all get worried about Steam not currently outright stating why they took the game down.

On a more real level? We all know why they took the game down. It doesn't set a precedent unless you're going to be releasing the same kind of stuff. No real surprises here.

[Lint]

http://kotaku.com/hatred-yanked-from-steam-yesterday-is-already-back-1672064186

Its back

[Benji]

Oh please, the morons making this are hardly geniuses - I think just about anyone could figure out what this is exactly the kind of thing that would happen, even the people who are writing the articles but it still raises a discussion point and puts the idiots making the game on blast.

Steam absolutely had to pull it too, there's no foul in doing what they did - I wouldn't want that kind of stigma down on a company that I was running. Should've been singled out and removed before it had a chance to finish Greenlight anyways.

When Postal and Manhunt are on there, removing this just seems like picking out one because of a current backlash. I absolutely agree, it's up to them to sell what they want, but it doesn't make them not hypocritical to have one MDK simulator on there and not another just because the current negative press is on it.

Again, I can't stand the game, but if you're going to have standards then have standards and stick by them, don't pick one out just because it's the current shock jock turd of the generation.

It's back now anyway, so the entire thing is moot.

[TEOL]

Oh joy.

Honestly, I don't think Valve had a leg to stand on pulling it in the first place, not because it doesn't deserve it (it does) but because there is so much utter shit sold on Steam these days that doesn't get taken down so how can they make an exception for this? I, as a consumer, am far more offended by Steam trying to essentially con me into dropping ten quid on a game based on descriptions and screenshots that turns out to be a buggy, unplayable mess, and actively allowing developers to censor negative reviews and criticism, than by some puerile attempt at generating controversy which they've evidently succeeded in doing.

If Valve had been actively curating Greenlight before now then they'd have a leg to stand on, but now they're trying to shut the barn door after the horse has bolted. Unless they're seriously saying they'd happily put their name on games that look like they were thrown together in five minutes out of bought assets, then they can't suddenly turn around and say they care what gets sold on Steam.

The irritating thing is that I'm sure they'll exploit their status as 'the game Valve didn't want you to play!' and sell a bunch more copies as a result, and people who wouldn't have even heard about it will play it out of curiosity, and a bunch of thirteen year olds will buy it to be edgy and their parents will complain when they find out what it's about instead of stopping them getting it in the first place, like every other controversial game. But Valve have no one to blame but themselves. They set up the situation and then complained when the inevitable happened.

[Whisper]

Of course they have a leg to stand on. It's their store, they can sell and promote what they like. It really is that simple.

Whether it makes them "hypocritical" or not is irrelevant.

I don't disagree that it makes things worse in terms of giving this steaming pile of a game, and its developers, another platform to continue their attention seeking. But any argument that Steam are doing something wrong is ridiculous.

[TEOL]

Oh, sure, they can do what they like, but there's no point in them saying stuff like 'we are taking a moral stand, we care about what gets put on our store' and be taken seriously when they never have up until this point. Like I said, they have no one to blame but themselves.

[Lint]

Actually they've pulled one other game from Greenlight...a porn game

[apsham]

I still don't get comparing Manhunt to Hatred. It's brutal, yes.. but it's not the brutality that really irks people about Hatred. You're kidnapped and put into a situation where you have to kill to survive. Postal is a much easier target to say 'yeah, that's rather similar' but it's been there a while and never really sparked the outrage this one did... I remember playing at least a demo of it when I was a kid, it's likely the more realistic imagery in Hatred that does it here.

Also - Steam hasn't and never did take the 'moral' stance so that's moot as well, and not something anyone should be basing any of their arguments off. They removed it because they didn't want to sell it at the time, that's literally ALL we know.

[TEOL]

If anyone wants to present a logical argument as to why Valve should take down Hatred but not the endless stream of shitty ripoff games they allow to be sold all the time, I'd sure like to hear it.

[Lint]

Because Hatred looks like a shitty game and will spawn even shittier ripoff games?

[FestiveJack]

If anyone wants to present a logical argument as to why Valve should take down Hatred but not the endless stream of shitty ripoff games they allow to be sold all the time, I'd sure like to hear it.

Because the aim of those shitty rip-off games isn't to murder people for no reason as they beg for mercy? The existence of those shitty rip-off games isn't going to give Valve bad press from the mainstream media?

[TEOL]

Because Hatred looks like a shitty game and will spawn even shittier ripoff games?

If 'being a shitty game' is a reason to take a game down, then they shouldn't stop at Hatred and they should have started months ago. And while they were at it, they should have stopped developers from curating their own forums and allowing them to delete negative reviews and ban anyone who made critical comments, from using copyright takedown notices to get rid of negative videos about their games, from being as misleading as they like in their marketing materials and from releasing games on early access only to abandon them once they've turned a profit. If they'd done any of that at any point in the last few months, then they could have taken Hatred down without looking ridiculous. But they didn't.

In short, saying that Valve haven't specifically quoted the moral high ground as their reason for taking Hatred down is silly, because they have no other excuse. How the hell can anyone say they took Hatred down because they didn't want to get a reputation for selling games that are shitty? They already have that reputation. They've had it for ages. Ever since the advent of Greenlight and Early Access, Steam has been viewed by shady developers as a place where you can throw up cheaply made, unenjoyable games and make money off them because Valve gives them all the tools to do so. So sure, they can take down Hatred if they want, but trying to do so and not look like complete hypocrites or expect anyone to take them seriously is laughable.