Superman 64 Discussion Thread

[Sousa]

Ah, the Tropes vs. Women thread, where "I don't like your critique of video games" led to "you should literally be prosecuted."

[SeanDMan]

Ugh, I really can't stand the position that "if you attack a woman's work, you are attacking womankind".

Anita Sarkeesian has huge flaws in her method, saying that doesn't make me a misogynist.

[Sousa]

You're misunderstanding "went after Anita Sarkeesian." When I say "went after Anita Sarkeesian" I mean "threatened to murder Anita Sarkeesian."

[Colly]

I think I just struggle with the whole concept despite vaguely getting the history. Are the 'pro-gg' people the mysogynistic lot? I honestly can't grasp what the argument is whatsoever.

BRIEF TIMELINE:

1. Woman named Zoe Quinn releases game called Depression Quest to some minor acclaim.

2. Quinn's ex-boyfriend points out sordid details, claimed she slept with a reviewer for positive reviews (false).

3. Noted Firefly fuckboy and gun-toting misogynist whackjob Adam Baldwin dubs it HASHTAG GAMERGATE on Twitter while an IRC chat room (yes, really, those ancient things we use during PPVs) starts disseminating Quinn's personal information, calling her house, harassing her relatives, etc.

4. Around the same time, several publications release articles discussing some variation of "the death of the gamer identity" due to the increased presence of women, queer people, and people of color in gaming communities. Reasonable people understand the nuance inherent in "death of an identity." Idiots with no concept of nuance interpret it to mean "WE WANT VIDEO GAMERS TO LITERALLY DIE," begin e-mailing these sites' advertisers.

5. Bafflingly, the same crowd starts going after feminist critic Anita Sarkeesian, which basically torpedoes any chance of ever saying it's about JOURNALISM ETHICS. This does not stop anyone from saying it's about JOURNALISM ETHICS.

6. Repeat for six goddamn months.

There's a ton of levels of this particular shit salad that I haven't even gotten into. Like, that comic above probably makes very little sense if you haven't been following this from the beginning. There's just so much bullshit going down that it's hard to sum up, but that's roughly how it got started.

Thanks Sous. I still don't really get the terminology (is Gamergate the event or the weird cause these oddballs are following?), and can't even grasp this 'identity as a gamer' thing (wasn't there a girl smashing SMB3 at the end of The Wizard? Two decades ago), but I'm marginally more clued in.

It feels silly.

[Pizza]

Ugh, I really can't stand the position that "if you attack a woman's work, you are attacking womankind".

Anita Sarkeesian has huge flaws in her method, saying that doesn't make me a misogynist.

No, but misogynists saying she should be murdered/prosecuted/have her kick starter funds revoked, threatening her, and harassing her at every turn makes people with legitimate criticisms of her look like misogynists. That's not the fault of people who defend her work.

[Sousa]

It feels silly.

It is really, really, really silly. It is unfathomably silly.

[Pizza]

and can't even grasp this 'identity as a gamer' thing

Pretty much the idea that video gamers are basement dwelling virgins. There were articles pointing out that this stereotype was dead. This made basement dwelling virgins very mad.

[SeanDMan]

If you always judge every position by the most extremely radical fringe element, nothing ever gets solved.

Sure, there are people who say shit like that about Anita Sarkessian but that doesn't mean she should get a free shield whereby everyone who comes after her is labelled a misogynist. That is like saying "hey, until you stop the dudes in ISIS we're not having a debate about how to treat animals you Islamic radical". It's conflating the extremist and making him the norm, and discarding more moderate and nuanced and reasonable people who happen to share some of his positions, without being an extreme, murdering radical.

and can't even grasp this 'identity as a gamer' thing

Pretty much the idea that video gamers are basement dwelling virgins. There were articles pointing out that this stereotype was dead. This made basement dwelling virgins very mad.

It was bullying, and should make anyone mad. Gaming is something that a lot of people who are socially awkward and have difficulty integrating themselves socially do as an escape from the pressures of fitting into society.

It would be like if someone said "lesbians are dead!" and wrote an article about socially awkward, closeted women who haven't come out and how that "identity" of what a lesbian is was dead. First of all, it's branding people who identify as a lesbian but aren't insecure or closeted as saying "hey, this is the norm of what we think of you!" and secondly, it's acting as if being socially awkward and afraid of the fact that you don't fit in IS A REASON YOU DESERVE SCORN. People came out and said "haha, people like this DESERVE to be bullied, I wish I could punch these people in the face". And that shit is unacceptable.

Edited February 20, 2015 by SeanDCouturier

[stokeriño]

Random: for the first few months of this thing I totally thought it was in some way related to the game-purchasing website GamersGate (which I used once or twice several years ago) and something they'd done.

Even though it's not, they really cannot be pleased with whomever came up with the name for this.

[Sousa]

Even though it's not, they really cannot be pleased with whomever came up with the name for this.

They really are, though. Adam Baldwin came up with it and he is their favorite. Much of it is an offshoot of a much earlier incident that they dubbed "ElevatorGate" because ORIGINALITY.

[Colly]

and can't even grasp this 'identity as a gamer' thing

Pretty much the idea that video gamers are basement dwelling virgins. There were articles pointing out that this stereotype was dead. This made basement dwelling virgins very mad.

Surely that identity died with the PlayStation in the mid 90s though? Admittedly the audience was still predominantly male but it certainly didn't leave out gays, blacks or cool kids like me.

I've been playing games since a weird black and white thing that played Pong, through Amiga's and various Nintendo and Sony consoles, but I can't say I've ever gone out of my way to have a 'gamer identity' which is probably why I don't get it...

[FestiveJack]

If you always judge every position by the most extremely radical fringe element, nothing ever gets solved.

Sure, there are people who say shit like that about Anita Sarkessian but that doesn't mean she should get a free shield whereby everyone who comes after her is labelled a misogynist. That is like saying "hey, until you stop the dudes in ISIS we're not having a debate about how to treat animals you Islamic radical". It's conflating the extremist and making him the norm, and discarding more moderate and nuanced and reasonable people who happen to share some of his positions, without being an extreme, murdering radical.

You absolutely can, but if the people doing it are doing it and using the label or hashtag #gamergate at the same time, they are and should be lumped with gamergate's 'fringe' (although in actuality it seems like it's gg's mainstream). With GG, the extremist is the norm.

[Sousa]

Also I will post this everywhere this morning.

[SeanDMan]

If you always judge every position by the most extremely radical fringe element, nothing ever gets solved.

Sure, there are people who say shit like that about Anita Sarkessian but that doesn't mean she should get a free shield whereby everyone who comes after her is labelled a misogynist. That is like saying "hey, until you stop the dudes in ISIS we're not having a debate about how to treat animals you Islamic radical". It's conflating the extremist and making him the norm, and discarding more moderate and nuanced and reasonable people who happen to share some of his positions, without being an extreme, murdering radical.

You absolutely can, but if the people doing it are doing it and using the label or hashtag #gamergate at the same time, they are and should be lumped with gamergate's 'fringe' (although in actuality it seems like it's gg's mainstream). With GG, the extremist is the norm.

Turn that statement around, saying "With Islam, the extremists are the norm", and you're an Islamaphobe, and a racist.

But it's okay to say it about gamers, because you don't agree with them.

[Lint]

If you always judge every position by the most extremely radical fringe element, nothing ever gets solved.

Sure, there are people who say shit like that about Anita Sarkessian but that doesn't mean she should get a free shield whereby everyone who comes after her is labelled a misogynist. That is like saying "hey, until you stop the dudes in ISIS we're not having a debate about how to treat animals you Islamic radical". It's conflating the extremist and making him the norm, and discarding more moderate and nuanced and reasonable people who happen to share some of his positions, without being an extreme, murdering radical.

While I have no doubt there are some members of GG who d believe in their catchphrase about "being all about ethics in videogame journalism", their most vocal and visible members are these "fringe" ones who are threatening murder and rape. The ones who arent' these insane need to shout down those crazy ones if they want to be taken seriously.

But who are the ones who only do anything? Nutjobs who threaten to kill and rape..and doxx, always with the doxxing

[FestiveJack]

If you always judge every position by the most extremely radical fringe element, nothing ever gets solved.

Sure, there are people who say shit like that about Anita Sarkessian but that doesn't mean she should get a free shield whereby everyone who comes after her is labelled a misogynist. That is like saying "hey, until you stop the dudes in ISIS we're not having a debate about how to treat animals you Islamic radical". It's conflating the extremist and making him the norm, and discarding more moderate and nuanced and reasonable people who happen to share some of his positions, without being an extreme, murdering radical.

You absolutely can, but if the people doing it are doing it and using the label or hashtag #gamergate at the same time, they are and should be lumped with gamergate's 'fringe' (although in actuality it seems like it's gg's mainstream). With GG, the extremist is the norm.

Turn that statement around, saying "With Islam, the extremists are the norm", and you're an Islamaphobe, and a racist.

But it's okay to say it about gamers, because you don't agree with them.

No. What I'm saying is with GamerGaters, the extremists are the norm. I'm not saying gamers. I'm not saying people who play games, I'm saying GamerGaters. The fact that they play games is irrelevant. I'm saying 'with ISIS, the extremists are the norm.'

Don't conflate gamers and GamerGaters, because most gamers probably don't have a fucking clue what GG is, and if they do, they probably don't give a shit.

[RPS]

If you always judge every position by the most extremely radical fringe element, nothing ever gets solved.

Sure, there are people who say shit like that about Anita Sarkessian but that doesn't mean she should get a free shield whereby everyone who comes after her is labelled a misogynist. That is like saying "hey, until you stop the dudes in ISIS we're not having a debate about how to treat animals you Islamic radical". It's conflating the extremist and making him the norm, and discarding more moderate and nuanced and reasonable people who happen to share some of his positions, without being an extreme, murdering radical.

You absolutely can, but if the people doing it are doing it and using the label or hashtag #gamergate at the same time, they are and should be lumped with gamergate's 'fringe' (although in actuality it seems like it's gg's mainstream). With GG, the extremist is the norm.

Turn that statement around, saying "With Islam, the extremists are the norm", and you're an Islamaphobe, and a racist.

But it's okay to say it about gamers, because you don't agree with them.

That isn't really an apt comparison, because not all gamers are involved in GamerGate.

It would be like saying "all members of ISIS are extremists".

[Hobo]

Always important. Warning some not very nice people use not very nice words about women and POC in this.

[SeanDMan]

But to step past the Gamergate thing, because there are legitimate reasons why I'm not exactly championing that cause;

Gamergate was started around the Zoe Quinn scandal, and was used by a lot of people as an excuse to attack her for things unrelated to gaming and or journalism, so that makes it hard to throw down with that lot. In addition, many people (not just on the anti side, but on the pro side as well) see this as the big battle between progressives and anti-progressives in terms of what is appropriate content in gaming and gaming communities, which I see as a separate issue and one in which I haven't entirely decided where I stand (the pro GG pro free speech crowd, for example, are going gaga over Hatred, which I think is pretty much the biggest pile of shit imaginable).

There are issues with media.

First of all, look at Brian Williams right now. You have a guy who "forgot" that he wasn't shot down in a helicopter in Iraq. Oops!

Then there's Jian Ghomeshi, a guy who used his position as a personality and radio host to trade favors, such as plugs, for favors, such as tugs. He's now accused of being a serial rapist.

Then there's Leslie Roberts. He was an anchor on the news here in Vancouver. Once again, though, he "forgot" to mention that he had a side job as owner as a PR agency. Guess which PR agency continually managed to get clients interviews live on the morning news? Oops!

These are just three examples from 2014/2015 of huge ethical issues in journalism. There are definitely examples of this in games journalism as well; the idea of a "gamesjournopro" mailing list, where journalist from COMPETING PUBLISHERS collaborate on stories and an overall narrative, is insane. I dunno about you but I signed things like NDAs and such that explicitly forbid me from doing shit like that, but somehow we accept it in our media?

There are issues with gamergate, and I don't agree with a lot of their anti-feminist positions, but a lot of people in here seem to have the opinion that one bad apple spoils the whole orchard. There's legitimacy to the concerns, regardless of how insane the outliers tend to be.

[Lint]

One bad apple doesn't spoil the orchard. However, when all you find is bad apples, theres something wrong with the orchard