NBA 2015-2016 Season Thread

[DMN in the House]

4 hours ago, Maxx said:

I'm trying to imagine what a big as talented as Curry would even look like.  I know you don't mean as a 3 point shooter too, more in the sense that he's as a good at every a big does as Steph is at everything he does.  Still struggling.  

Kareem or Hakeem, but, honestly, a guy like Shaq was just as good as Steph, arguably better, but you could argue that Curry is more 'talented' while Shaq had better physical gifts.

[JasonM]

People tend to forget that Shaq was absolutely unstoppable in his prime, this was a guy that would back any defender into the post before turning around and dunking it in your face because he was 7ft1 and was built like a freight train. This was a guy that could simply win you games from the post for forty minutes per game, and either score a point on you, get fouled and go to the line, or be able to kick it out to Kobe Bryant who was just as talented as he was.

People crap on the Hack-a-shaq and his terrible free throw shooting, but he was going to the stripe for 9 free throw shots on average for his career with a career high average of 13.1 in 00/01. Despite him being 50/50 from the stripe, that's still an ungodly amount of free throws attempted that broke even the staunchest hack-teams. And at the same time he was getting more than 10 rebounds a game, two blocks a game, and even two assists per game.

And despite not being a three point shooter, or him being a shit free throw shooter. He led the league in Effective Field Goal % six times, and five times he led the league in PER.

Shaq defined an era by being a dominant scorer and a dominant defender, and even in his twilight years where he was hampered by knee injuries he was a dominant player that nobody had an answer for. Where Wilt dominated a league that hadn't yet figured out true defense (60s basketball was a shooting gallery), Shaq dominated a league in a time where defenses where the toughest and nastiest as they came. With people like Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Hakeem, David Robinson, Dikembe, 'Lonzo, etc. being there to try and stop him. Shaq played in a time where arguably there were the most star centers in the league, and he dominated every single one of them. He was on a whole different level.

And Steph is doing the same for guards/shooters right now... Because you have a league right now that has bonafide superstars and MVP contenders like KD, LeBron (maybe not this year), Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi, Chris Paul... And Steph is so dominant that we automatically think less of those other players, despite most of that list putting up MVP numbers for themselves.

KD is putting up 28-8R-5A-1S-1B on 51% FG, 39% 3pt, 89.5% FT, and is only second to Curry in TS%. And despite he's on the path to a 50-40-90 season, nobody notices it because Curry over in Oakland is putting up 50-45-90 like it's nothing.
Harden for all his flaws is putting up 29-6.5R-7A-1.7S, yet nobody bats an eye because Curry is just better.
Westbrook is averaging 24-7.5R-10A-2S, but Curry is just better.

All those players are putting up career years with legendary stats, but all of them are being outshined by Stephen Curry because he's the Shaq of shooters. He can do whatever he wants, and he'll drain five threes a game, and will at this rate get 400 threes, and a 50-40-90, and be the most efficient player on the field DESPITE shooting eleven threes a game, which in no way should be possible. The next guy behind him on the three point list is his teammate Klay, and he's drained 100 threes less than him.

Steph is simply sensational and inexpiable in every way. And this is really just a start of a new era in NBA basketball, the era of the super-elite shooters that can score in even the most wildest of situations from ranges that nobody should ever shoot at.

[Plubby]

3 hours ago, Jasonmufc said:

People tend to forget that Shaq

The rest of the post was great but unnecessary. Yes I forgot about Shaq >_<

[Quom]

Shaq isn't the same as Steph, Steph is a threat the moment he crosses the half-court. He even gets to the rim with regularity and has a wide range of accurate circus shots to get past bigs. The only argument would be on defence and in the modern NBA I'm not exactly sure how Shaq would do on defence needing to cover explosive guys out at the elbows or the three point line. 

I currently think if you put Steph on any NBA team they become a title threat, if you put Shaq on most NBA teams they'd still most likely lose to GSW who would have two options; try to contain Shaq with Bogut and throw doubles at him hoping to strip the ball or just let him feast on offence and then force him to defend either Draymond or Harrison Barnes by throwing a small ball lineup at him. Shaq would most likely score at a higher clip than 50% in that match-up but GSW would be rotating the ball until they get a wide open 3 or lay-up since Shaq isn't keeping up and is going to also tire quickly.

[DMN in the House]

1 hour ago, Quom said:

Shaq isn't the same as Steph, Steph is a threat the moment he crosses the half-court. He even gets to the rim with regularity and has a wide range of accurate circus shots to get past bigs. The only argument would be on defence and in the modern NBA I'm not exactly sure how Shaq would do on defence needing to cover explosive guys out at the elbows or the three point line. 

I currently think if you put Steph on any NBA team they become a title threat, if you put Shaq on most NBA teams they'd still most likely lose to GSW who would have two options; try to contain Shaq with Bogut and throw doubles at him hoping to strip the ball or just let him feast on offence and then force him to defend either Draymond or Harrison Barnes by throwing a small ball lineup at him. Shaq would most likely score at a higher clip than 50% in that match-up but GSW would be rotating the ball until they get a wide open 3 or lay-up since Shaq isn't keeping up and is going to also tire quickly.

I agree that Steph probably makes any NBA team (well, with the exception of Philly/Lakers (:()/Nets?) a title contender, but I'm not sure on your second point.

GS would have to be hitting their shots at an above average clip to defeat a team that had decent talent surrounding Shaq. Put elite talent around Shaq-Prime, so, say, the 2001 Lakers, and I think, in a seven game series, they defeat GS. Probably in 7, but I think you're overrating Steph and underrating Shaq. Steph is, arguably, a top 10 guard of all time. Maybe even top 3, and if we're including PGs then throw Magic and maybe a few more in front of him. Once in a lifetime talent, future HOFer, but not, at this point, really in the argument for best at his position all-time. To put the argument for Shaq simply, he is in the argument for being the best at his position ever.

I mean, that's really unfair to Steph, since it's so early in his career and, I mean, maybe some day he'll be in the argument (and, I mean, it's 'easier' to be considered the best big man of all-time than it is to be the best guard because of the legend of Michael Jordan), so...

[Plubby]

2 hours ago, Quom said:

Shaq isn't the same as Steph, Steph is a threat the moment he crosses the half-court. He even gets to the rim with regularity and has a wide range of accurate circus shots to get past bigs. The only argument would be on defence and in the modern NBA I'm not exactly sure how Shaq would do on defence needing to cover explosive guys out at the elbows or the three point line. 

I currently think if you put Steph on any NBA team they become a title threat, if you put Shaq on most NBA teams they'd still most likely lose to GSW who would have two options; try to contain Shaq with Bogut and throw doubles at him hoping to strip the ball or just let him feast on offence and then force him to defend either Draymond or Harrison Barnes by throwing a small ball lineup at him. Shaq would most likely score at a higher clip than 50% in that match-up but GSW would be rotating the ball until they get a wide open 3 or lay-up since Shaq isn't keeping up and is going to also tire quickly.

That's not the original point. It was never that if we took Shaq out of his prime and put him in today's NBA that he'd be as good as Curry, it's that Shaq is as good at being a big as Steph is at being a guard.

[Quom]

31 minutes ago, Plubby said:

That's not the original point. It was never that if we took Shaq out of his prime and put him in today's NBA that he'd be as good as Curry, it's that Shaq is as good at being a big as Steph is at being a guard.

My point is though that it's now a different era. Shaq today would be far less valuable than he was then, likewise Curry would have been far less valuable when Jordan came into the league because of rule changes. Put hand checking back in and Curry is dropping in value. Put Shaq on a modern defence in the age of spacing and constant movement and bigs hitting threes and he's far less valuable. I mean I don't even think Shaq was the best big of his era, I'd take Hakeem and Robinson over Shaq because I think they were much better defenders and were at least close to him offensively. I guess my point is that the gulf between Curry and any other guard this season is much, much greater than between Shaq and his contemporaries.

1 hour ago, DMN said:

I agree that Steph probably makes any NBA team (well, with the exception of Philly/Lakers (:()/Nets?) a title contender, but I'm not sure on your second point.

GS would have to be hitting their shots at an above average clip to defeat a team that had decent talent surrounding Shaq. Put elite talent around Shaq-Prime, so, say, the 2001 Lakers, and I think, in a seven game series, they defeat GS. Probably in 7, but I think you're overrating Steph and underrating Shaq. Steph is, arguably, a top 10 guard of all time. Maybe even top 3, and if we're including PGs then throw Magic and maybe a few more in front of him. Once in a lifetime talent, future HOFer, but not, at this point, really in the argument for best at his position all-time. To put the argument for Shaq simply, he is in the argument for being the best at his position ever.

I mean, that's really unfair to Steph, since it's so early in his career and, I mean, maybe some day he'll be in the argument (and, I mean, it's 'easier' to be considered the best big man of all-time than it is to be the best guard because of the legend of Michael Jordan), so...

Wait, I never said put Shaq on any team that was a contender for greatest of all time team and see if they have a chance of winning against GSW. That's like saying if you added Steph to the 95-96 Bulls they'd be better and would easily beat the 2001 Lakers. 

It doesn't matter how good Shaq was at his position all time. The problem is mathematical. You need to shoot 60% from 2 to be of equal value to a guy shooting 40% from 3 and not only is Steph shooting 46% on threes at a clip that's going to demolish the league record for attempts, but he's also shooting 57% from 2pt range.

The only way around it is by saying 'he might get cold' which the data just doesn't support. Sure it might happen, but the building might also collapse, Shaq could foul out etc. It isn't really something you can plan for.

It isn't even a matter of defence. Curry is putting up 33.3% from 3 with a defender within 0-2 feet (so pressed up), again to match that you need to shoot 50% from 2 (Steph is also shooting 48% on 2's with a defender within 0-2 feet). The other thing is that the stats show that whilst he'll take (and make) these shots, he isn't in love with these shots. But the point is, even if you press up on him the whole game he's still going to be well above the league average on his shots.

I don't think there has been a player (including Jordan) in the modern age that has been offensively as dangerous as Steph is right now. The only caveat is that hand-checking (or lack thereof) makes it impossible to compare accurately.  

   

[Red Devil-Taker316]

16 hours ago, Jasonmufc said:

Steph is simply sensational and inexpiable in every way. And this is really just a start of a new era in NBA basketball, the era of the super-elite shooters that can score in even the most wildest of situations from ranges that nobody should ever shoot at.

I agree 100% with this. It's actually not much different than Michael Jordan inspiring many players (for better or for worse, and mostly for worse because MJ was such a complex player) to turn basketball into an isolation game. These are the results 11 years in of the rule changes made in the mid 2000s to open up the offense. 

[Your Mom]

Get one of the old toughs from back in the day and they will take Steph out at the knees!

[VerbalPuke]

I got you Srar

[DMN in the House]

I disagree completely with the idea that Shaq would be less valuable today. There's no evidence to support it because there's no big man anywhere near as close to the physical abilities of Shaq in the league today. You're also acting like prime Shaq couldn't defend bigs on the outside, which is false, and there's no big man in the league today who'd have any chance of stopping Shaq from doing whatever he wanted.

[Your Mom]

@VerbalRick that's actually exactly who I was thinking of  

[Quom]

Shaq was not covering guys out on the perimeter :/

And again it's fine for nobody to be able to stop Shaq, if he's shooting 60% he's still less valuable than Steph this season. I'm done discussing it.

 

[Your Mom]

Big Shaq was a genie. He could do anything!

[Maxx]

Checkmate.

[gunnar hendershow]

3 hours ago, DMN said:

I disagree completely with the idea that Shaq would be less valuable today. There's no evidence to support it because there's no big man anywhere near as close to the physical abilities of Shaq in the league today. You're also acting like prime Shaq couldn't defend bigs on the outside, which is false, and there's no big man in the league today who'd have any chance of stopping Shaq from doing whatever he wanted.

If you took a guy like Shaq in his prime and put him in an environment of today's ball movement, shoot from deep teams you'd be unstoppable. Hell it's why he was unstoppable with Kobe and briefly with Wade. But even moreso now since the great shooters will attempt 3's. If they miss, no problem, Shaq can get the putback for 2. Over 48 minutes you're gonna be able to get 10-12 more points than your opponent. Not to mention the matchup nightmares it will cause for the other team. That's where the role for big men is today, it's what the Rockets have tried to do with Howard and while it worked well last year it's been a disaster this year.

[Rafael]

Kemba, man. 

[DMN in the House]

12 hours ago, damshow said:

If you took a guy like Shaq in his prime and put him in an environment of today's ball movement, shoot from deep teams you'd be unstoppable. Hell it's why he was unstoppable with Kobe and briefly with Wade. But even moreso now since the great shooters will attempt 3's. If they miss, no problem, Shaq can get the putback for 2. Over 48 minutes you're gonna be able to get 10-12 more points than your opponent. Not to mention the matchup nightmares it will cause for the other team. That's where the role for big men is today, it's what the Rockets have tried to do with Howard and while it worked well last year it's been a disaster this year.

Plus, I mean, honestly, how many bigs can go outside and shoot a high enough percentage to make it matter against a player like Shaq? It's one thing to put your big out on the wing to try and unclog the middle, but if they're not going to make the shots than they're not going to pull him out?

The inside-out game will still definitely work, I just think we're in a down period for big men in the league so small ball is dominating. It happens in every sport, although I can talk about it more in college football, where, as the amount of 'prototypical' pocket passers has diminished, teams are using more athletic, less skilled (in the passing game) QBs. When a dominant big man comes around, you'll see the difference.

[Meacon Keaton]

Those boring Warrior guys put up 81 points in the first half.

[Twist]

6 hours ago, Meacon said:

Those boring Warrior guys put up 81 points in the first half.

Snore.