Westworld

[MalaCloudy Black]

It's maybe a little bit more basic of a theory, but wouldn't it make more sense (re: Maxx/Hellraiser/Josh)

 

Spoiler

If Logan is the Man in Black? It's been established that Logan thinks very little of hosts and thinks of them as playthings, a mindset that the Man in Black also has. Logan and the MIB are both very callous and cruel to the hosts. They also elaborate on some of the MIB's backstory in episode 8, saying - I think - that he started going to the park more and more while his wife was sick. Wouldn't it make more sense then, if it was Logan? Logan's a seasoned visitor, he spends a lot of his time there, and I think the most we know about him is that he's a junior executive and William's soon-to-be brother in law. Logan could easily be the MIB in the throes of dealing with his wife's sickness, couldn't he?

EDIT: His wife wasn't sick, she committed suicide and his daughter blames it on him. Dunno why I was thinking she was sick. But still, I think the MIB could be Logan.

 

[Maxx]

7 hours ago, Hellraiser said:

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Yes, he is Dolores father who we saw in the first couple episodes.  IIRC they mention that he was part of some kind of cannibal cult storyline before that. But I don't think he has ever been out of the park. I think the storyline with him freaking out about the photo was taking place in the past some time before the whole storyline with Bernard, Ford, Theresa, Maeve and the Board Of Director's lady takes place. My guess is that he has been decommissioned and stored basement ever since that incident with the photo until board of directors lady decided to use him for her shady business in the present.

 

 

 

The father freaking out has to be a "present day" event because his ability to access previous version of himself was triggered by reveries, which were Ford's new addition.  Its something that Theresa took issue with, and reveries were what the board tried to say was causing Clem to malfunction in their fake incident last week.  I would say anything you see that involves Ford and Bernard is happening in present day, and is unfolding largely in chronological order.

[MalaCloudy Black]

Also, as someone who bingewatched the show to get caught up, I noticed

(episode 7/8 spoilers)

 

Spoiler

There's quite a deal of foreshadowing about Bernard being a host. Ford tells him he's the result of trillions of mistakes, and we're supposed to take that as being a reference to evolution. When Bernard and Theresa sleep together for the first time (that we see), she asks why his creations talk so much and he says they're constantly error correcting and trying to become more lifelike (not the exact quote). Then Theresa jokes that that's what Bernard's doing while they're talking in bed. When Ford tells him about Arnold, Ford makes it a point to remind him that hosts aren't real and not to get attached. 

Also, Ford says that his new narrative has kernels of truth in it. I think that we're supposed to think of Arnold as Wyatt (and, in turn, as a lunatic) and Ford/the narrative's hero as the sane, rational one, but I think that it's the other way around. I think that, given recent revelations about Bernard, Ford is the one who was wrapped up in trying to give the hosts consciousness, and that he murdered Arnold because he disagreed.

 

[Ruki]

Finally got caught up so I can read all the spoilers!

 

....I'm more confused now with all the...

Different timeline

 

talk. Although it'd be cool/seems plausible. Kinda sad that

 

Elsie seems to have died though. Well, we see her being choked out...no body. But we can only assume she has kicked the bucket

 

With the theory...

Who is present day and who is past?

 

Deloris/William/Logan is the past, while Maeve and Ford vs the Board is present?

[gunnar hendershow]

Ruki:

Common assumption is that there are 2 separate timelines being shown. William and crew in the past, probably 30 years ago, and everyone else in the present. But there's a slight grey area with regards to MIB, whether he's in the park looking for the maze at the exact same time as everything with Maeve, Ford, Bernard is going on or if it's slightly after. The presence of Wyatt would seem to mean it couldn't be before.

Also, we're left in the dark with Elsie. Probably died, and it wouldn't surprise me if she returns as a host made by Ford himself. After all, in the scene where Theresa was killed there was a host under construction.

[Colly]

Spoiler

Yeah I'd assumed the host under construction would be Theresa, but given they've revealed her body it clearly isn't. It's definitely a woman though, it had boobies.

 

[MalaCloudy Black]

15 minutes ago, Colly said:

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Yeah I'd assumed the host under construction would be Theresa, but given they've revealed her body it clearly isn't. It's definitely a woman though, it had boobies.

 

Spoiler

If Bernard killed Elsie like people think, it could be her too. Or it could be a totally unrelated host. 

has anyone seen the theory that Bernard is a host clone of Arnold? Someone posted about it on the Westworld reddit a month ago. Pretty much predicted that Bernard was a host, but with the addition that he's based off of Arnold. 

 

[gunnar hendershow]

14 hours ago, Cloudy said:

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If Bernard killed Elsie like people think, it could be her too. Or it could be a totally unrelated host. 

has anyone seen the theory that Bernard is a host clone of Arnold? Someone posted about it on the Westworld reddit a month ago. Pretty much predicted that Bernard was a host, but with the addition that he's based off of Arnold. 

 

The "Arnold" in the picture with Ford turned out to be the father in the house, so very possible Bernard isn't programmed to see who the real Arnold is. It might be him, it could be someone else. I suspect we've already met Arnold, and that's why Bernard (and us, the viewer) saw what he saw. Lot of potential theories, but one I've really liked is Arnold tried to basically become a host himself.

Also, people tend to call Ford by his last name. Would it not be the case that perhaps people call Arnold by his last name?

[Your Mom]

Come on Westworld! How am I supposed to pay attention to your excellent story when Thandie Newton is naked for so much of it? It's unfair!  

[gunnar hendershow]

That fucking episode

[MalaCloudy Black]

All that exposition.

 

Spoiler

Just for poor Bernard to get fucked over again.

But we've basically got confirmation that William is the Man in Black, and that Bernard was made in Arnold's image. 

"The Maze isn't meant for you." Seems as though it was meant for Dolores, I won't be surprised if it turns out that she's "Wyatt". Fan theories are 2 for 2, why not go 3 for 3?

Ford is horrible, holy shit.

I'm all-in on the Maeve/Hector host revolution.

EDIT: Oh, and how can I forget? Dolores can't "remember" because she was the one who killed Arnold. 

Also, the latest theory people are bandying about on r/westworld..
 

Spoiler

"The Maze" is a trap designed by Ford, to keep sentient hosts within the park, and that Maeve's rebellion is being orchestrated by Ford as a means to prove that Delos still need him at the park, because he'll be the one to stop her.

 

[gunnar hendershow]

 

I just love that Ford's hubris is blinding him from the very real threat of a host uprising. Like he's so, so very evil but he isn't aware of this one thing going on. If he could control it, prepare for it, or manipulate it he would be invincible, but instead it's going to lead to his undoing.

Dolores is so difficult to follow being that she exists in all timelines (is that 3 now?) and because of the way she remembers things we can't even tell which timeline she is in sometimes. If it turns out she's Wyatt I'm just gonna assume that the writers of the show also post all the fan theories on the subreddit.

Also the picture Logan showed William was the same picture from episode one that set Dolores' father off.

[MalaCloudy Black]

1 minute ago, damshow said:

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I just love that Ford's hubris is blinding him from the very real threat of a host uprising. Like he's so, so very evil but he isn't aware of this one thing going on. If he could control it, prepare for it, or manipulate it he would be invincible, but instead it's going to lead to his undoing.

Dolores is so difficult to follow being that she exists in all timelines (is that 3 now?) and because of the way she remembers things we can't even tell which timeline she is in sometimes. If it turns out she's Wyatt I'm just gonna assume that the writers of the show also post all the fan theories on the subreddit.

Someone brought up on reddit..

 

Spoiler

That since Teddy is programmed to always follow / seek / be with Dolores, they were together when the town was massacred. It seems to me like in this episode, we're supposed to believe that Teddy = Wyatt. Maybe Teddy's misremembering, though. Perhaps he witnessed (or took part in?) Dolores massacring that town - could be that they were both sentient at the same time, say Dolores convinced Teddy the same way Maeve was able to convince Hector.

 

[gunnar hendershow]

1 minute ago, Cloudy said:

Someone brought up on reddit..

 

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That since Teddy is programmed to always follow / seek / be with Dolores, they were together when the town was massacred. It seems to me like in this episode, we're supposed to believe that Teddy = Wyatt. Maybe Teddy's misremembering, though. Perhaps he witnessed (or took part in?) Dolores massacring that town - could be that they were both sentient at the same time, say Dolores convinced Teddy the same way Maeve was able to convince Hector.

 

It's been established hosts are programmed to see/not see certain things. So that's very possible.

Also, saw your bit about the idea that Ford programmed in the Maze to establish his grip on the park. I was wondering how he'd hang onto control, and I thought it would have to do with the rebellion. But I think too much is being built up around Maeve's uprising for it to just be snuffed out quickly by Ford's code, a code he could easily erase if he's ever kicked out of the park. One thing that this episode really made me think about was the idea that Ford's new narrative is just a way for him to program himself into the park to live forever. He's obviously not a young man, so finding a way to bring his consciousness over to a host is a way to become immortal.

[MalaCloudy Black]

1 minute ago, damshow said:

 

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It's been established hosts are programmed to see/not see certain things. So that's very possible.

Also, saw your bit about the idea that Ford programmed in the Maze to establish his grip on the park. I was wondering how he'd hang onto control, and I thought it would have to do with the rebellion. But I think too much is being built up around Maeve's uprising for it to just be snuffed out quickly by Ford's code, a code he could easily erase if he's ever kicked out of the park. One thing that this episode really made me think about was the idea that Ford's new narrative is just a way for him to program himself into the park to live forever. He's obviously not a young man, so finding a way to bring his consciousness over to a host is a way to become immortal.

 

Yeah, I mean, to be honest
 

Spoiler

I really hope that theory is more tinfoil than "Bernard Lowe = Arnold Weber", because too much has been made of Maeve's rebellion and her heightened attributes. It'd be a real cocktease if the season finale was like "whoops lol EXACTLY AS I, ROBERT FORD, PLANNED IT".

Which leads me to my own TINFOIL HAT THEORY about the finale:
 

Spoiler

The host rebellion is squashed in its infancy, and by the episode's end, it's determined that reveries are in part responsible for hosts being able to gain sentience. Reveries are removed from all hosts, but in the last scene of the episode, Maeve makes some gesture or twitch or reverie that clues the viewer in: "She's still sentient." Credits. Have fun waiting for 2018, suckers!

 

[Hellraiser]

Holy fucking shit this episode!

Spoiler

So I was kinda right about Logan trying to convince William that Dolores isn't human and that this would cause him to become the Man In Black. I can't wait to see that transformation come full circle.

And is the photo that Logan gave to William the same that Dolores dad (the one that went crazy) had?

I feel terrible for Bernard. So he is Arnold? I was sure that Arnold was someone we've already seen since the showmakers were bent on not showing us even a picture of the man. But it never occured to me that it could be Bernard. I was sure Bernard was simply someone that Ford created to keep an eye on what the other staffers were up to. That combined with what we learn about Dolores later in that episode makes me see his secret sessions with her and the obsession he had about here in a much different light. 

What I don't understand is what happened to Stubbs. At first I thought maybe Bernard was trying to lure him there to find Elsie as a back-up plan if his meeting with Ford would go south so that there is someone else who could figure out what Ford is up to. Then I remembered that at that point he still wasn't able to remember what he had done to Elsie yet. So who was responsible for Stubbs going there? Ford? To what end? Wouldn't it be in his best interest for nobody to find out what happened to Elise? Or was he just worried that Stubbs would eventually get suspicious when Elsie doesn't show up and that he would do some digging himelf? Was he trying to prevent that? Then wouldn't there be more subtle ways to get rid of hum than to let some hosts do it which could cause another scandal if someone notices and without letting another staffer (the women who alerted Stubbs about the Elsie signal) know where he went? Or is the board of directors involved in all of this somehow?

I really do hope that Maeve somehow manages to get out of the park. I echo Cloudy's sentiment that it would be very disappointing if Ford somehow planned for all of this to happen.

And they still haven't explained why the "These violent delights have violent ends" quote caused both Dolores and Maeve to remember.

 

3 hours ago, Cloudy said:

Someone brought up on reddit..

 

  Hide contents

That since Teddy is programmed to always follow / seek / be with Dolores, they were together when the town was massacred. It seems to me like in this episode, we're supposed to believe that Teddy = Wyatt. Maybe Teddy's misremembering, though. Perhaps he witnessed (or took part in?) Dolores massacring that town - could be that they were both sentient at the same time, say Dolores convinced Teddy the same way Maeve was able to convince Hector.

 

Spoiler

Maybe she is Wyatt. Maybe he massacring the town was the first host uprising. Teddy helped her because he was programmed to be her. Maybe that uprising was part of Arnold's scheme to free the hosts. But it somehow backfired on him and Dolores killed him. Or maybe he wanted to die?

 

[SeanDMan]

Okay that was just fucked.

[gunnar hendershow]

5 hours ago, Hellraiser said:

Holy fucking shit this episode!

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So I was kinda right about Logan trying to convince William that Dolores isn't human and that this would cause him to become the Man In Black. I can't wait to see that transformation come full circle.

And is the photo that Logan gave to William the same that Dolores dad (the one that went crazy) had?

I feel terrible for Bernard. So he is Arnold? I was sure that Arnold was someone we've already seen since the showmakers were bent on not showing us even a picture of the man. But it never occured to me that it could be Bernard. I was sure Bernard was simply someone that Ford created to keep an eye on what the other staffers were up to. That combined with what we learn about Dolores later in that episode makes me see his secret sessions with her and the obsession he had about here in a much different light. 

What I don't understand is what happened to Stubbs. At first I thought maybe Bernard was trying to lure him there to find Elsie as a back-up plan if his meeting with Ford would go south so that there is someone else who could figure out what Ford is up to. Then I remembered that at that point he still wasn't able to remember what he had done to Elsie yet. So who was responsible for Stubbs going there? Ford? To what end? Wouldn't it be in his best interest for nobody to find out what happened to Elise? Or was he just worried that Stubbs would eventually get suspicious when Elsie doesn't show up and that he would do some digging himelf? Was he trying to prevent that? Then wouldn't there be more subtle ways to get rid of hum than to let some hosts do it which could cause another scandal if someone notices and without letting another staffer (the women who alerted Stubbs about the Elsie signal) know where he went? Or is the board of directors involved in all of this somehow?

I really do hope that Maeve somehow manages to get out of the park. I echo Cloudy's sentiment that it would be very disappointing if Ford somehow planned for all of this to happen.

And they still haven't explained why the "These violent delights have violent ends" quote caused both Dolores and Maeve to remember.

 

  Hide contents

Maybe she is Wyatt. Maybe he massacring the town was the first host uprising. Teddy helped her because he was programmed to be her. Maybe that uprising was part of Arnold's scheme to free the hosts. But it somehow backfired on him and Dolores killed him. Or maybe he wanted to die?

 

 

Yes, it was the same picture as the one in the first episode. More or less confirming the multiple timelines theory.

There's a couple possibilities with Elsie and Stubbs, but I'm hard-pressed to think that the board of directors (and possibly the public at large) is going to be okay if staff members keep dying. Theresa and Bernard work fine as ex-lovers, like you can explain that away. But if Elsie and Stubbs both disappear people will get suspicious. I think it's very possible Elsie was able to reprogram Bernard herself, finding everything out before it was too late. I think a lot of people are very close to knowing exactly what Ford is doing, and they only need one little bit to piece it all together. Elsie found this perhaps. And now she's dragged Stubbs out to tell him what she knows where both can't be found.

I thought initially it wouldn't be satisfying for Ford to have planned Maeve's uprising, but after what we learned about how he was able to avoid getting shot by Clementine I suddenly think it's very possible this is all a ploy. There's something that's slipping away from him, whether it's Bernard saving Elsie, Maeve's uprising, or something we haven't quite seen yet, it's going to be his undoing. I also have this lingering feeling Ford has, or is planning to, create himself in a host as an attempt to give himself eternal life. So using an uprising to give himself even more power makes a lot of sense.

Also, I'm right to assume in the first uprising Dolores killed Arnold correct?

[MalaCloudy Black]

damshow:
 

Spoiler

re: Dolores killing Arnold, that's what we're led to believe, yes. I could swear that in one of the flashbacks - Dolores' I think - there's a guy who looks a lot like Bernard laying on the ground while she's looking at all the bodies.

 

[Hellraiser]

2 hours ago, damshow said:

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Yes, it was the same picture as the one in the first episode. More or less confirming the multiple timelines theory.

There's a couple possibilities with Elsie and Stubbs, but I'm hard-pressed to think that the board of directors (and possibly the public at large) is going to be okay if staff members keep dying. Theresa and Bernard work fine as ex-lovers, like you can explain that away. But if Elsie and Stubbs both disappear people will get suspicious. I think it's very possible Elsie was able to reprogram Bernard herself, finding everything out before it was too late. I think a lot of people are very close to knowing exactly what Ford is doing, and they only need one little bit to piece it all together. Elsie found this perhaps. And now she's dragged Stubbs out to tell him what she knows where both can't be found.

I thought initially it wouldn't be satisfying for Ford to have planned Maeve's uprising, but after what we learned about how he was able to avoid getting shot by Clementine I suddenly think it's very possible this is all a ploy. There's something that's slipping away from him, whether it's Bernard saving Elsie, Maeve's uprising, or something we haven't quite seen yet, it's going to be his undoing. I also have this lingering feeling Ford has, or is planning to, create himself in a host as an attempt to give himself eternal life. So using an uprising to give himself even more power makes a lot of sense.

Also, I'm right to assume in the first uprising Dolores killed Arnold correct?

Spoiler

Elsie could be alive. Didn't think about that. Would make sense. We also didn't see her die. We saw her struggle. Both when the attack of Bernard happened and in Bernard's memory. But we didn't see him killing her like we did when he killed Theresa. That would be awesome. I really like Elsie and was miffed when she supposedly died.

As for Ford I'm not sure whether he has planned this whole uprising or not but he has been very calm about all the host malfunctions. Originally I just thought that he was so distracted by the board of director's ploy that he simply didn't notice. But for someone who prides himself with always being one step ahead it seems strange that he doesn't seem to notice what's going on and I doubt someone with a god complex like him simply wouldn't care if his creation suddenly starts to become sentient.