Westworld

[Josh]

RE: Episode 7 spoilers

Spoiler

I liked the "I don't see a door" thing. It felt like it was meant to tip us off then have us panic for her safety right up until she fully understood and was killed for it.

 

[Hellraiser]

Spoilers for episode 8:
 

Spoiler

I don't like where the William/Dolores plotline is going. He is a cruel asshole, he wants to get back at William for leaving him behind and knows William has become infatuated with Dolores. I don't think you need to be a genious to figure out how he is going to try to make WIlliam suffer.

And Bernard will kill Ford. I think so much is obvious. He remembers. Although I have no idea why Ford made him kill Elsie. She wasn't working against him. I hope they give us an explanation for that.

 

 

 

[Benji]

Episode 5 feels like where the show is getting it's feet. Previous to that it felt like it had been dragging a little for me, but episode 5 just goes full tilt.

Spoiler

The scene where Sabrina from Raising Hope confronted the tech who was... Jimmy Saville-ing the robots was hilarious.

 

[MDK]

23 minutes ago, Benji said:

Episode 5 feels like where the show is getting it's feet. Previous to that it felt like it had been dragging a little for me, but episode 5 just goes full tilt.

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The scene where Sabrina from Raising Hope confronted the tech who was... Jimmy Saville-ing the robots was hilarious.

 

It does have a bit of a slow burn but its worth it. Not quite as slow a burn as The Wire tho.

[gunnar hendershow]

Episode 8

Things are just going mad now. I'm not super fond of the William/Dolores storyline. Though Dolores completely being unable to tell where she is sometimes has some emotional pull. A lot is negated by Maeve's fucking brilliant arc right now though, like her memories have made her human. Bernard's memories are going to do the same to him I bet. And I suspect that might be where we go with Dolores as well. A lot of the hosts are all in the process of the exact same awakening, but walking different paths to get there. The thing with Dolores is I have no idea exactly where that storyline fits in. A lot of signs are that it's happening sometime before everything else, but how long before? And is Dolores' awakening what leads Ford to program in the reveries?

And then you get to Ford himself, and wonder what he is even trying to do with his new narrative. Why it's so important that he's razing a whole section of the park. What exactly he's trying to put in there. Is his endgame to create life or to control life?

Having a bit explained about the Man in Black felt like forced exposition, but he was telling it to hosts who he has very bluntly made out to not treat as people. In a sense he was just talking to a wall as he's descending into his own madness even further.

 And at the end of the day, despite all of these different layers without truly knowing everyone's motivation it almost feels like Arnold is the "final boss" we're going to be working towards.

[Hellraiser]

2 hours ago, damshow said:

Episode 8

 

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Things are just going mad now. I'm not super fond of the William/Dolores storyline. Though Dolores completely being unable to tell where she is sometimes has some emotional pull. A lot is negated by Maeve's fucking brilliant arc right now though, like her memories have made her human. Bernard's memories are going to do the same to him I bet. And I suspect that might be where we go with Dolores as well. A lot of the hosts are all in the process of the exact same awakening, but walking different paths to get there. The thing with Dolores is I have no idea exactly where that storyline fits in. A lot of signs are that it's happening sometime before everything else, but how long before? And is Dolores' awakening what leads Ford to program in the reveries?

And then you get to Ford himself, and wonder what he is even trying to do with his new narrative. Why it's so important that he's razing a whole section of the park. What exactly he's trying to put in there. Is his endgame to create life or to control life?

Having a bit explained about the Man in Black felt like forced exposition, but he was telling it to hosts who he has very bluntly made out to not treat as people. In a sense he was just talking to a wall as he's descending into his own madness even further.

 And at the end of the day, despite all of these different layers without truly knowing everyone's motivation it almost feels like Arnold is the "final boss" we're going to be working towards.

 

Spoilers for Episode 8 and theory about how the host uprising will play out:
 

Spoiler

I subscribe to the theory of two different time-lines. I think that William will become the Man In Black and I think the entire storyline with him, Dolores and Logan takes place shortly after Arnold commits suicide/gets murdered by Ford/whatever the hell it is that happened to him. Arnold did something to Dolores before he died (she is the last host to have come in contact with him) which causes her awakening. Maybe she is supposed to somehow trigger the awakening for all the hosts. She meets William and the storyline we saw in the preceding episodes unfolds.

 

They get captured by Logan. In the next two episodes something will happen that turns William into the callous Man In Black. To complete the transformation that began when they left Logan behind. My guess is that Logan will torture Dolores as he knows that William is infatuated with her. Maybe he'll pull her skin off to show William that she is just a robot or something else disgusting like that. He strikes me as the guy who would enjoy that. Maybe that is when the staffers of the park will step in because he takes it to far. Maybe Dolores will fight back and hurt Logan and then the staffers step in because she is not supposed to hurt anyone. Maybe she even kills Logan after which William and Ford make a deal to sweep it under the rug as long as the company William works for keeps funding the park. Maybe that is why as the Man In Black he gets do do whatever he wants. And maybe that is why his wife commits suicide because she found out that he is somehow involved in her brother's death.

 

Either way at some point the staffers will get involved. Ford will program in the reveries and the concept of dreams into Dolores and everybody else. And whatever Arnold programmed into Dolores and the other hosts will lie dormant for the next 30 years until it is triggered again. It has already happened for some hosts and for the rest of the park I think it will happen when the Man In Black and Teddy get to the center of the labyrinth and find whatever Arnold has prepared there. And Ford doesn't notice it because he is too busy fighting against the board of directors despite it happening right in front of him with Bernard's case. And when he does it is to late to do anything about it.

That is my theory.

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Hellraiser

[Maxx]

16 minutes ago, Hellraiser said:

Spoilers for Episode 8 and theory about how the host uprising will play out:
 

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I subscribe to the theory of two different timelines. I think that William will become the Man In Black and I think the entire storyline takes place shortly after Arnold commits suicide/gets murdered by Ford/whatever the hell it is that happened to him. Arnold did something to Dolores before he died (she is the last host to have come in contact with him) which causes her awakening. She mets William and the storyline we saw in the preceding episodes unfolds.

They get captured by Logan. In the next two episodes something will happen that turns William into the callous Man In Black. To complete the transformation that began when they left Logan behind. My guess is that Logan and the confederados will torture Dolores as he knows that William is infatuated with her. Maybe he'll pull her skin off to show William that she is just a robot or something disgusting like that. He strikes me as the guy who would enjoy that. Maybe that is when the staffers of the park will step in because he takes it to far. Maybe Dolores will fight back and hurt Logan and then the staffers step in because she is not supposed to hurt anyone. Maybe she even kills Logan after which William and Ford make a deal to sweep it under the rug as long as the company William works for keeps funding the park. Make it look like an accident. Maybe that is why as the Man In Black he gets do do whatever he wants.

Either way at some point the staffers will get involved. Ford will programm in the reveries and the concept of dreams into Dolores and everybody else. And whatever Arnold programmed into Dolores or the other hosts will lie dormant for the next 30 years until it is triggered again. It has already happened for some hosts and for the rest of the park I think it will happen when the Man In Black gets to the center of the labyrinth and finds whatever Arnold has prepared there. And Ford doesn't notice it because he is too busy fighting against the board of directors despite it happening right in front of him with Bernard's case. And when he does it is to late to do anything about it.

That is my theory.

 

I would say the problem with the William to Man in Black theory is that in episode 8, we see William and Dolores end up in the area of the park where Ford is building his new narrative.  That would mean that they are in the time period where Ford is creating the Wyatt narrative, a time period in which Ford has had a sit down meeting with the Man in Black, meaning he and William exist in the same time.   At least that's how I'm understanding it. 

[Hellraiser]

4 minutes ago, Maxx said:

 

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I would say the problem with the William to Man in Black theory is that in episode 8, we see William and Dolores end up in the area of the park where Ford is building his new narrative.  That would mean that they are in the time period where Ford is creating the Wyatt narrative, a time period in which Ford has had a sit down meeting with the Man in Black, meaning he and William exist in the same time.   At least that's how I'm understanding it. 

 

Spoiler

The way I understand it the area in which Dolores had her flashback this episode is the area in which the park started. Where the hosts were taught how to behave. Makes sense that Dolores can remember that far back because it has been mentioned that she is the oldest host that is still active. At some point they seem to have abandoned it. The only part of it that remained is the church tower. And that is how it remained until Ford decided to build his new narative there. But when Dolores and William are there that hasn't happened yet. There is no construction work going on. It still is untouched. I don't see any contradiction there unless I'm missing something. 

 

[Maxx]

7 minutes ago, Hellraiser said:

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The way I understand it the area in which Dolores had her flashback this episode is the area in which the park started. Where the hosts were taught how to behave. Makes sense that Dolores can remember that far back because it has been mentioned that she is the oldest host that is still active. At some point they seem to have abandoned it. The only part of it that remained is the church tower. And that is how it remained until Ford decided to build his new narative there. But when Dolores and William are there that hasn't happened yet. There is no construction work going on. It still is untouched. I don't see any contradiction there unless I'm missing something. 

 

There was no construction work going on when Ford showed it off in an earlier episode either.

[Hellraiser]

Just now, Maxx said:

 

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There was no construction work going on when Ford showed it off in an earlier episode either.

 

Spoiler

Then I don't see the problem. The place was empty when Dolores and William arrived there and it is empty when Ford showed it off. How does that contradict the "William is the Man In Black" theory?

 

[Maxx]

15 minutes ago, Hellraiser said:

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Then I don't see the problem. The place was empty when Dolores and William arrived there and it is empty when Ford showed it off. How does that contradict the "William is the Man In Black" theory?

 

 

Because they've made such a big deal about Ford transforming an area of the park for the narrative, one would assume that how it looks when Ford shows it off is a new development.  The town isn't just abandoned, its buried, with only the church steeple sticking out of the ground.  That would seem like a sign of some sort of construction.  It's not like it was just the town Dolores began at, abandoned.

I'm not saying the theory is wrong, but there are holes.  But, to be fair there may have been a massive tip off that the theory is true.  The bound woman Teddy and MiB find and rescue is the host that welcomed William to the park and helped him pick out his outfit.  MiB says “It’s you. I thought that they’d retired you. I guess Ford never likes to waste a pretty face.”  So yeah, the dual timeline theory is almost certainly true at this point.

 

[Hellraiser]

1 minute ago, Maxx said:

 

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Because they've made such a big deal about Ford transforming an area of the park for the narrative, one would assume that how it looks when Ford shows it off is a new development.

 

I'm not saying the theory is wrong, but there are holes.  But, to be fair there may have been a massive tip off that the theory is true.  The bound woman Teddy and MiB find and rescue is the host that welcomed William to the park and helped him pick out his outfit.  MiB says “It’s you. I thought that they’d retired you. I guess Ford never likes to waste a pretty face.”  So yeah, the dual timeline theory is almost certainly true at this point.

 

 

Spoiler

But when Ford shows the area off his work had just begun. Maybe he simply didn't get to that part of the park yet. Maybe he just went their because even someone like him gets sentimental at times. He says he doesn't but if he really doesn't give a crap about the past then why would be keep a recreation of his childhood home around?

And I didn't notice that. I was confused as to what he meant when he said "It's You". I didn't recognize her. Thank you for reminding me of that. I suppose it's settled then. 

 

[Maxx]

1 minute ago, Hellraiser said:

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But when Ford shows the area off his work had just begun. Maybe he simply didn't get to that part of the park yet. Maybe he just went their because even someone like him gets sentimental at times. He says he doesn't but if he really doesn't give a crap about the past then why would be keep a recreation of his childhood home around?

And I didn't notice that. I was confused as to what he meant when he said "It's You". I didn't recognize her. Thank you for reminding me of that. I suppose it's settled then. 

 

I edited that post in regards to the construction if you want to take a look.  Nothing major, but enough to create some doubt, which is obviously the intention.

[gunnar hendershow]

Re: Maxx/Hellraiser

One really interesting point is that in episode 7 until Theresa pointed out the door, we the viewer couldn't see it either. So the argument is there that we're only seeing what the hosts are seeing when inside the park. And the hosts are programmed to not see everything. As a narrative device this is brilliant since it allows them to trick us without treating us like we're dumb. Maybe William saw a village there, but Dolores didn't, and we'll never know because he didn't say anything.

I did not catch that part about the person welcoming William to the park (and also in the big video screen welcoming all guests to Westworld in episode 6 I think). That screen was also updated with the new logo from when William/Logan came by it in episode two. So there's definitely some time between William and the Man in Black.

[Josh]

Help me out here. (Episode 8 spoilers.)

Spoiler

 

Is the decommissioned host that was chosen by the board member Dolores' father? He seemed to be. If that's the case and he leaves the park after having all of the company info uploaded to him, does that explain why he freaks out at a photo of a modern city in the first episode? And wouldn't that suggest he returns to the park after being gone? And if THAT'S the case, does that not suggest some kind of circular time line?

I'm not certain of any of that, but it was hard for me to ignore.

 

 

[Hellraiser]

1 hour ago, fhqwhjosh said:

Help me out here. (Episode 8 spoilers.)

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Is the decommissioned host that was chosen by the board member Dolores' father? He seemed to be. If that's the case and he leaves the park after having all of the company info uploaded to him, does that explain why he freaks out at a photo of a modern city in the first episode? And wouldn't that suggest he returns to the park after being gone? And if THAT'S the case, does that not suggest some kind of circular time line?

I'm not certain of any of that, but it was hard for me to ignore.

 

 

Spoiler

Yes, he is Dolores father who we saw in the first couple episodes.  IIRC they mention that he was part of some kind of cannibal cult storyline before that. But I don't think he has ever been out of the park. I think the storyline with him freaking out about the photo was taking place in the past some time before the whole storyline with Bernard, Ford, Theresa, Maeve and the Board Of Director's lady takes place. My guess is that he has been decommissioned and stored basement ever since that incident with the photo until board of directors lady decided to use him for her shady business in the present.

 

 

 

[Josh]

2 hours ago, Hellraiser said:

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Yes, he is Dolores father who we saw in the first couple episodes.  IIRC they mention that he was part of some kind of cannibal cult storyline before that. But I don't think he has ever been out of the park. I think the storyline with him freaking out about the photo was taking place in the past some time before the whole storyline with Bernard, Ford, Theresa, Maeve and the Board Of Director's lady takes place. My guess is that he has been decommissioned and stored basement ever since that incident with the photo until board of directors lady decided to use him for her shady business in the present.

 

 

 

Spoiler

So, remind me, did they establish WHY he freaked out over the photo? I'm having trouble not making this leap in logic where his possible trip outside the park is what causes him to freak out - but, of course, that makes the whole timeline lead back to its own beginning. And in this show, I'm not as ready to dismiss that possibility as I usually would be.

 

[Hellraiser]

Just now, fhqwhjosh said:

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So, remind me, did they establish WHY he freaked out over the photo? I'm having trouble not making this leap in logic where his possible trip outside the park is what causes him to freak out - but, of course, that makes the whole timeline lead back to its own beginning. And in this show, I'm not as ready to dismiss that possibility as I usually would be.

 

Spoiler

I've read into that and they haven't explained why that photo in particular triggered him. They have explained that looking at the photo caused him to remember a previous build in which he was known as "The Professor" who liked to quote Shakespeare (thus the "These Violent Delights Have Violent Ends" which he says over and over which is a quote from "Romeo and Juliette") and was involved in a storyline about cultists and cannibalism. We know that this quite which he also told to Dolores which she in turn told Maeve somehow triggered both of them to remember. But there has been no explanation why it was this photo he freaked out over.

The more I read into this the more confusing it becomes and the more unsure I become about my own theories. Which details are importand and which are just there to throw us for a loop.

 

[Ruki]

Just finished episode 6. Holy crap!

Elsie gets kidnapped or killed or something! The leaks are coming from inside the company! And Maeve just became a super genius.

[Ruki]

......so.....episode 7 happened.

 

Huh.

 

Ok then.