Formula One 2020

[Bobfoc]

28 minutes ago, Chris2K said:

1981 is the first season available on the F1 site in terms of highlights, so that covered any race I couldn't find online, but then I searched out 1980 because it felt better to start at the beginning of a decade. Most of them since 1984 are Google-able in terms of full races, YouTube, DailyMotion etc. but if it's on the F1 site I'll use that option as it's guaranteed good quality.

Is this something you need to subscribe to on the F1 site?

[METALMAN]

Yeah I didn't know that was available - pretty cool! I noticed during lockdown there were quite a few full races put on their Youtube channel, and I watched a couple of those.

[Chris2K]

1 hour ago, Bobfoc said:

Is this something you need to subscribe to on the F1 site?

The historical F1TV package is £19.99 for a year. The archive comes with that, which is highlights of every race from 1981 onwards, mostly from Season Reviews hosted by Simon Taylor (the commentator from Rush), occasionally the BBC highlights program with Murray Walker and James Hunt, but without the BBC branding (so no The Chain intros :(), and very occasional full races. From 2009 onwards almost every full race is there, and I assume the ones that aren't are due to lack of entertainment reasons.

To me it's a no-brainer purchase, at least until I've got through another 27 seasons of races, but I also have a lot more free time than the average person.

 

Have a link on me.

[Meacon Keaton]

So how much of Hamilton’s dominance would you all attribute to Mercedes? Would he podium every race if he were driving Ferrari?

I’m curious as to what everyone thinks. I grew up on NASCAR, where cars are more or less built equally, so the best drivers are usually the ones that win, but ever since I started watching, it’s been obvious that Mercedes is just a tier or two above everyone else and it makes me wonder if you were to put a Perez in one, if he’d be just as dominant.

[Adam]

He would not have won all these World Titles without being in a Mercedes, it's as simple as that. Their dominance as a team has been too great, no one else has even come close to them apart from Vettel in 2017.

[FestiveJack]

What a boring race.

Hamilton is the best driver of the post-Schumacher era, his seasons at McClaren showed how good he is. But would he have won as many titles if he was at a different team to Mercedes? No, not at all.

[Katsuya]

I think the big problem with comparing Lewis is that so often he's been in the best or second best car on the grid, so you can never really compare him to the likes of Senna who had to fight his way through early on in his career, or what Alonso managed to do at times at Ferrari.

At best, you could say he had no right to be in the fight for the title to the final race in 2010, but then you look at 2011 & 2012 and he really wasn't anything too special those years from memory. Jenson even beat him in a fair fight in 2011 which is the one year that always really stands out against him.

He's easily the best driver of the last decade regardless, but if he had been in the Red Bull and Max in the Mercedes, then Verstappen would be a 3/4 time champion right about now.

[Bobfoc]

It's rare for someone to win the world title without being in the best car. Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen all benefited from being in cars that were a long way ahead of the competition in the nineties, and then Michael Schumacher had five straight years of a Ferrari that was ridiculously superior to every other car.

I'd argue that Hamilton's victory in 2008 might have been the last time someone won in a car that wasn't undoubtedly the best on the grid, and the gap between the McLaren and Ferrari that year wasn't massive. Button had the best car in a bizarre 2009, and Vettel had four years of Red Bull dominance before Mercedes stepped up to another level. It's just the way the sport is.

[Adam]

40 minutes ago, Bobfoc said:

It's rare for someone to win the world title without being in the best car. Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen all benefited from being in cars that were a long way ahead of the competition in the nineties, and then Michael Schumacher had five straight years of a Ferrari that was ridiculously superior to every other car.

I'd argue that Hamilton's victory in 2008 might have been the last time someone won in a car that wasn't undoubtedly the best on the grid, and the gap between the McLaren and Ferrari that year wasn't massive. Button had the best car in a bizarre 2009, and Vettel had four years of Red Bull dominance before Mercedes stepped up to another level. It's just the way the sport is.

There isn't always a clear best car though. It does happen a lot, those examples you gave all prove that, but not always. Vettel didn't cakewalk all of his titles, he competed hard with his team mate Webber and, in most seasons, Alonso and Ferrari. I'd point to the Schumacher/Alonso battles too, whilst McLaren were very much in the mix during those years in the early-to-mid 2000s.

By contrast, Hamilton in the Mercedes has almost always been streets ahead of the other teams, clearly showing the car's total superiority over the rest of the grid. I've never known anything like it, it trumps the Schumacher Ferrari era if you look at the stats. Hamilton had it harder when Rosberg was his partner and Ferrari got their shit together for about a season and a half but otherwise Mercedes have been well clear.

[Bobfoc]

20 minutes ago, Adam said:

There isn't always a clear best car though. It does happen a lot, those examples you gave all prove that, but not always. Vettel didn't cakewalk all of his titles, he competed hard with his team mate Webber and, in most seasons, Alonso and Ferrari. I'd point to the Schumacher/Alonso battles too, whilst McLaren were very much in the mix during those years in the early-to-mid 2000s.

By contrast, Hamilton in the Mercedes has almost always been streets ahead of the other teams, clearly showing the car's total superiority over the rest of the grid. I've never known anything like it, it trumps the Schumacher Ferrari era if you look at the stats. Hamilton had it harder when Rosberg was his partner and Ferrari got their shit together for about a season and a half but otherwise Mercedes have been well clear.

I think I'd say that, even if there isn't always a car that's head-and-shoulders above the others, it's usually easy to pinpoint which is most likely to win the most races over the course of a season. I think Red Bull and Ferrari fit that description in their dominant eras. I can't think of too many years that have been especially wide open, which makes me think that 2007-2010 was a much more exciting period than many realised at the time.

If we're looking at someone who consistently competed at the top, even in a car that was significantly slower than at least one other on the grid, it has to be Michael Schumacher, his comeback run excepted. The Ferraris he drove from 1996 to 1998 were clearly worse than Williams in 1996 and 1997, and then McLaren in 1998, but he still managed to be competitive, bringing the 1997 and 1998 seasons down to the final race. I reckon he might well have won in 1999 if he hadn't been injured, and that year's Ferrari was still inferior to the McLaren, albeit to a lesser extent.

[MJB]

3 hours ago, Katsuya said:

I think the big problem with comparing Lewis is that so often he's been in the best or second best car on the grid, so you can never really compare him to the likes of Senna who had to fight his way through early on in his career, or what Alonso managed to do at times at Ferrari.

At best, you could say he had no right to be in the fight for the title to the final race in 2010, but then you look at 2011 & 2012 and he really wasn't anything too special those years from memory. Jenson even beat him in a fair fight in 2011 which is the one year that always really stands out against him.

He's easily the best driver of the last decade regardless, but if he had been in the Red Bull and Max in the Mercedes, then Verstappen would be a 3/4 time champion right about now.

 

In 2012, he was very good. But had horrible reliability. 

Lost out in Singapore, Abu Dhabi with DNF's while leading. Was also taken out by Hulk in Brazil while leading. McLaren had some horrible pit stops and a fuelling error DQ'ed him in Spain qualifying after putting it on pole. Could have certainly been in the Alonso/Vettel fight that year.

Lewis is an interesting one for me. Without Mercedes, would he have had the titles, no. However, without Lewis, I'm not convinced that Mercedes would have won 2018 and maybe 2017 also. How many drivers would have done just as good of a job in that car in those years? Ricciardo maybe. Alonso probably, Max probably. But two of those have never been in a WDC fight and I think that counts for a lot. 

Since Nico left at the end of 2016, I do think Lewis has taken another step up. Especially in his race pace. He's always been a good qualifier in F1, even in the McLaren days. However, he struggled with tyre wear and would go missing occasionally. Nowadays, he's much more consistent. He's good on tyres and is very good in wheel-to-wheel (apart from against Albon apparently).

Max and him are certainly the top two on the grid at the moment. I can't split them. Max needs to prove himself in a title fight next though and see how he reacts to being in a real battle for the title, like Lewis did in 2018 when Ferrari looked to have just as good a car for most of the season as Mercedes.

I'm a Hamilton fan, and even I have a hard time enjoying seasons like this. I thought I liked it through 2014 and 2015 but the Ferrari/Seb battle was much more fun when Lewis came out on top. The 2019/20 interteam 'rivalry', really isn't a rivalry and is nowhere near as fun. 

The problem I have is that it's not Lewis' or Mercedes fault. The argument is - "well put someone other than Bottas in the car", and yeah but apart from Max, who? As for Max, Mercedes tried having two No1's and that just became toxic. No way they do that again while Lewis is around.

 

[Gazz]

In a straight team mate fight with identical cars, Hamilton would comfortably beat everyone bar Verstappen, who he would still probably beat but it would at least be close.

@Mr. Meacon Moneybags, a good way to gauge a driver's ability is to measure him against his team mate. Who generally outqualifies who and who can put the car into race positions that their team mate can't, for example, Pierre Gasly at Alpha Tauri who can get that car into the top six on occassion and compete with drivers in better cars while his team mate Daniil Kyvat drives around in 12th for the entire season.

[Chris2K]

Or George Russell, who is 28-0 against team-mates in qualifying so far in his career.

[METALMAN]

Yeah. I'd be on the side of those that say Lewis Hamilton is a remarkable driver, even if he is fortunate to be in the best car. For me the best three on the grid would be Hamilton, Verstappen and Ricciardo, although it's obviously difficult to measure. And I'd perhaps say that Vettel and Leclerc make Ferrari the team with the most talented overall pairing.

Although Ferrari's a whole other thing. Having first watched F1 in that 1999-2004 period I still can't get used to how shit they are right now. It's baffling. Only thing I can really compare it to is growing up with Man Utd dominating and seeing what happened to them post-Ferguson.

Edited August 31, 2020 by metalman

[Bobfoc]

Ferrari were poor in 2009, but perhaps not as much so as this season. Seeing Giancarlo Fisichella go from the front of the grid in a Force India to the back of the grid in a Ferrari in consecutive races was one of the most bizarre things I've encountered in F1. 2009 really was a strange season.

[Lineker]

Just now, Bobfoc said:

Ferrari were poor in 2009, but perhaps not as much so as this season. Seeing Giancarlo Fisichella go from the front of the grid in a Force India to the back of the grid in a Ferrari in consecutive races was one of the most bizarre things I've encountered in F1. 2009 really was a strange season.

Luca. Badoer.

[Bobfoc]

The funny thing with Badoer was that the closest he ever got to winning a point was when he was running fourth before crashing at the Nurburgring in 1999. He was driving a Minardi.

[Chris2K]

Back in 1993 Murray Walker is frequently talking about how Luca Badoer is considered a front-runner for the second Benetton seat in 1994, which would eventually go to Jos Verstappen, having been fairly impressive for the terrible Lola-BMS team. He would have had the same car that won Michael Schumacher his first World Title.

He was a pretty good driver, the issue he had when he came back for Ferrari was that he hadn't raced in F1 for 10 years.

[Katsuya]

Badoer even beat Barrichello and Coulthard in F3000 in 1992. 

The 09 Ferrari was pretty trash but that was mainly through their dogged insistence on running KERS for a lot of the races when they didn't need it. The only time it really paid off was Spa, because Kimi was able to use it to hold off Fisi even though he was much slower.

[Chris2K]

Seb has bought one of Nigel Mansell's 1992 Williams for "some millions of dollars" based on its last auction price. I assume he's planning to enter it at Monza as a last resort.