European Super League announced; collapses

[Lineker]

 

[Lineker]

 

[Adam]

I think banning the 12 of them from Europe for a few years would be a reasonable punishment, since they flagrantly went against the notion of the Champions League. That and/or financial sanctions sounds good to me.

I'm sure everyone will just carry on as if it never happened though.

[Lineker]

 

[Colly]

Depends whether everyone keeps clinging on to the narrative that the Champions League is immediately dead if those teams don't play in it. I find it incredibly hard to believe that any of the rights deals state "if x/y/z club aren't in it" the money goes down. I'm sure the argument is "if you do this we'll negotiate down next time", but that argument can fuck right off.

This also ignores the fact that it's 10 teams lost at most since only 4 PL clubs qualify, the fact there's still a decent chance that Leicester at least qualify in place of one of those 4, the fact that Juve missed a couple of years due to their last financial scandal, the fact both Milan clubs have played a fair bit of Europa League in the last decade, the fact that Atletico Madrid are hardly ever presents until recently, and the fact that Inter's new badge says TIT which is a branding disaster. The Champions League is more than these 10 clubs.

[Jimmy]

2 minutes ago, Colly said:

Depends whether everyone keeps clinging on to the narrative that the Champions League is immediately dead if those teams don't play in it. I find it incredibly hard to believe that any of the rights deals state "if x/y/z club aren't in it" the money goes down. I'm sure the argument is "if you do this we'll negotiate down next time", but that argument can fuck right off.

This also ignores the fact that it's 10 teams lost at most since only 4 PL clubs qualify, the fact there's still a decent chance that Leicester at least qualify in place of one of those 4, the fact that Juve missed a couple of years due to their last financial scandal, the fact both Milan clubs have played a fair bit of Europa League in the last decade, the fact that Atletico Madrid are hardly ever presents until recently, and the fact that Inter's new badge says TIT which is a branding disaster. The Champions League is more than these 10 clubs.

It is, but so much of the marketing these days for the CL is about "manger" vs. "manager" or "star player" vs. "star player." I'm pretty sure without those 11 clubs (let's say 8, because Arsenal, Spurs and sounds like Juve have exiled themselves by being shit), you would see revenue, advertising deals and ratings drop. 

I'd agree that The Champions League is more than those 10 clubs, but the CL would be damaged without all of them, and their star players, all in one go. 

[METALMAN]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

It is, but so much of the marketing these days for the CL is about "manger" vs. "manager" or "star player" vs. "star player." I'm pretty sure without those 11 clubs (let's say 8, because Arsenal, Spurs and sounds like Juve have exiled themselves by being shit), you would see revenue, advertising deals and ratings drop. 

This is the problem with fans of big clubs: supporters of the super league or not, you’re living in Agnelli’s world. The analysis is all “revenue, advertising deals and ratings”. It’s never about competitiveness, entertainment or just plain enjoyment.

The Champions League is boring and predictable with these teams flattening the others every year. Get them out and it could be brilliant.

[Jimmy]

5 minutes ago, metalman said:

This is the problem with fans of big clubs, supporters of the super league or not. The analysis is all “revenue, advertising deals and ratings”. It’s never about competitiveness, entertainment and open competition.

The Champions League is boring and predictable with these teams flattening the others every year. Get them out and it could be brilliant.

I mean, I don't think that's fair.

I was responding purely to a post about ratings and money. 

However, this point is biased, but the CL hasn't been boring and predictable for the last few years. The year when we played Liverpool in the final, there were some absolutely insane games with incredibly high drama across the competition. Last year provided a bunch of upsets (Lyon and Atalanta having great runs) - this year, while less underdog stories, we've still had upsets along the way (Porto knocking out Juve), even PSG knocking out Bayern over two great legs. 

[DavidMarrio]

But then you've got the Champions League wanting to expand the competition and include a spot for teams who haven't qualified but have a high coefficient over several seasons. 

My problem is UEFA themselves devalued the Europa League by having teams in 3rd in the Champions League group stage go into the competition. 

Maybe they should scrap seedings in the group stages. You might get some mad teams advancing and some getting knocked out but it'd lead to some "shocking teams advancing".

9 minutes ago, metalman said:

This is the problem with fans of big clubs, supporters of the super league or not. The analysis is all “revenue, advertising deals and ratings”. It’s never about competitiveness, entertainment or just plain enjoyment.

The Champions League is boring and predictable with these teams flattening the others every year. Get them out and it could be brilliant.

I thought it was pretty brilliant when us and Spurs got the final after looking dead and buried in the semi finals.

Two of the best nights of my life that, being in the ground for the comeback against Barcelona and the night we won it in Madrid.

[Plubby]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Guys, I was joking. Stoke are in the championship, you see.

woops

[Colly]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

However, this point is biased, but the CL hasn't been boring and predictable for the last few years. The year when we played Liverpool in the final, there were some absolutely insane games with incredibly high drama across the competition. Last year provided a bunch of upsets (Lyon and Atalanta having great runs) - this year, while less underdog stories, we've still had upsets along the way (Porto knocking out Juve), even PSG knocking out Bayern over two great legs. 

And that's great, but are you suggesting that the tv watching world didn't like those because it wasn't "manager vs manager" or "star player vs star player"? Is there any evidence at all for "if Man Utd don't qualify the ratings change materially"? We talk about this in the Ring all the time, but the Champions League is the brand they're selling, they don't stop promoting the final because Spurs have somehow got there instead of Messi and Ronaldo. It's still a sport, why aren't they selling it as that? And I'm not accepting "because kids like stars not football" as it's bollocks, everyone liked Pele too but they still watched the European Cup final if they could.

[METALMAN]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

I However, this point is biased, but the CL hasn't been boring and predictable for the last few years. The year when we played Liverpool in the final, there were some absolutely insane games with incredibly high drama across the competition. Last year provided a bunch of upsets (Lyon and Atalanta having great runs) - this year, while less underdog stories, we've still had upsets along the way (Porto knocking out Juve), even PSG knocking out Bayern over two great legs. 

Okay, that's great. You get the odd unpredictable result and second-leg reversal between teams from England, Spain, Italy and Germany that have continued to grab ever bigger slices of the pie for themselves. But before the quarter finals the entire competition is utterly dire. With hardly any exception, the two clubs with the higher salaries in each group are the ones that qualify. Liverpool and Tottenham didn't get to the final entirely on sporting merit. Financial doping helped too: years of grabbing more and more and more for themselves. 

The Champions League is  boring and predictable. The odd entertaining knockout tie doesn't mask the general pointlessness of the 96 group stage dead rubbers. 

[Kaney]

Oh so wait a minute, the champions league is boring when the same big clubs constantly roll over everyone else, but when Arsenal selflessly choose to play like dogshit so to improve competitiveness and give smaller teams a chance, its all "wtf are you doing here gtfo arsenal lol"

Some people are never happy smh.

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, Colly said:

And that's great, but are you suggesting that the tv watching world didn't like those because it wasn't "manager vs manager" or "star player vs star player"? Is there any evidence at all for "if Man Utd don't qualify the ratings change materially"? We talk about this in the Ring all the time, but the Champions League is the brand they're selling, they don't stop promoting the final because Spurs have somehow got there instead of Messi and Ronaldo. It's still a sport, why aren't they selling it as that? And I'm not accepting "because kids like stars not football" as it's bollocks, everyone liked Pele too but they still watched the European Cup final if they could.

Oh I'm with you, I'm purely saying if you banned all the clubs at once, I think there'd be a negative effect on ratings and revenue. 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be brilliant, that it wouldn't be entertaining or it wouldn't be a breath of fresh air. 

[Malenko]

Just saw this tweet:

EUROPEAN SUPERLEAGUE
2020/21 STANDINGS
1
2
3
4
5 Inter 21/04 12:00 CET
6 Atletico 21/04 11:46 CET
7 Chelsea 21/04 01:51 CET
8 Man Utd 20/04 23:56 CET
9 Arsenal 20/04 23:55 CET
10 Liverpool 20/04 23:55 CET
11 Tottenham 20/04 23:55 CET
12 Man City 20/04 22:23

[Jimmy]

10 minutes ago, metalman said:

Okay, that's great. You get the odd unpredictable result and second-leg reversal between teams from England, Spain, Italy and Germany that have continued to grab ever bigger slices of the pie for themselves. But before the quarter finals the entire competition is utterly dire. With hardly any exception, the two clubs with the higher salaries in each group are the ones that qualify. Liverpool and Tottenham didn't get to the final entirely on sporting merit. That came after years of grabbing more and more and more for themselves. 

The Champions League is  boring and predictable. The odd entertaining knockout tie doesn't mask the general pointlessness of the 96 group stage dead rubbers.

Again, the group stage when we made the final was great; we came back from the point of elimination to qualify in the last game. Last minute winners against Inter and PSV, and a late equaliser against Barca. 

Likewise, some of our best European nights have come in group stage games; the Bale hattrick at the San Siro, the 3-1 win against Inter at the Lane, beating Dortmund and Madrid at Wembley. 

You can say it's pointless all you want, but these are some of my favourite memories of supporting Spurs. 

And I would argue these were all unpredictable games for the neutral fan that were anything but boring. 

This year we had a PSG, Leipzig, United group stage that also saw United basically go out cos they lost to Basaksehir.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and again, I'm not disputing some of the group stage can be predictable at times - but just to outright say it's all boring and unpredictable as if it were fact is wrong & minimising the enjoyment of supporters.

[Colly]

But how? Ratings I'd imagine fluctuate game by game regardless, but if you factor in upsets which do happen how many ESL v ESL super games are we actually losing? A couple of quarters and potentially a semi and the final? There are seasons where none of the English clubs have made it to the semis and that's half the ESL field. Revenue can't drop overnight, and ticket sales for the showpiece games aren't going to be hurt unless there really is a "this club must be in it" clause for tv and sponsors somewhere which I really doubt. Do the Olympics have insurance just in case Usain Bolt picks up an injury? All these contracts are drawn up in the context of a sporting competition, if Messi goes out in the groups he's out, they'll still sell out the final. I just feel like we're regurgitating parroted business speak from the same billionaires we're angry with with little evidence to prove it.

Edit: Sorry, bad quoting, this was in response to Jimmy's previous.

But just to say, on one point you're arguing fans need stars v stars, but on the other hand you're saying Spurs doing unpredictable great things (sport!) are good for the neutral. So which is it?

Edited April 21, 2021 by Colly

[METALMAN]

 

12 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Again, the group stage when we made the final was great; we came back from the point of elimination to qualify in the last game. Last minute winners against Inter and PSV, and a late equaliser against Barca. 

Likewise, some of our best European nights have come in group stage games; the Bale hattrick at the San Siro, the 3-1 win against Inter at the Lane, beating Dortmund and Madrid at Wembley. 

You can say it's pointless all you want, but these are some of my favourite memories of supporting Spurs. 

And I would argue these were all unpredictable games for the neutral fan that were anything but boring. 

This year we had a PSG, Leipzig, United group stage that also saw United basically go out cos they lost to Basaksehir.

The general incompetence of Spurs despite the tremendous advantages thrown their way doesn't really disprove my point. Nor does anecdotal evidence. 

There is almost an absolute correlation between the teams with the highest wage bills and the teams that qualify from the group stage. If that's not boring and predictable I don't know what it is. The same teams are almost always in the quarter finals and semi-finals every year. I'm not going to go back and check this but I'm pretty sure the only semi-finalist from outside the big five leagues in the last decade was Ajax a couple of years ago. That's pretty shit.

I think that for a supporter of one of the super league teams it is often the case that things are fun and exciting as long as their team wins games. It's not about the spirit of competition or a level playing field. 

[Jimmy]

whatever andy, you're right it's boring and predictable, have a good day 

[METALMAN]

Bit of a petty response to my considered and reasonable argument. It upsets me to see EWB sink to these levels.