Rant on "Fahrenheit 9/11" SPOILERS!

[Underage Politician]

Ok, Jimmy hasn't seen the movie and apparently hasn't seen any Michael Moore interviews, but insists on touting that review as a credible source on what the movie is about.

I can't call him on that cause its a "personal attack"

right.

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As soon as you said "So, thanks captain obvious, I eagerly await your next review of a movie you haven't seen and know nothing about" it became a personal attack. He didn't write the review, just added it as a discussion piece and you jumped down his throat. Your whole post actually was very hostile, no need for you to get pissed because someone doesn't necessarily agree with the same things you do.

[The Third Dukes]

Ugh.

I should have expected this.

Instead of a possible debate over the merits of what is presented in the movie, all of us have gone into calling each other sheep, traitors, etc.

However, one thing is for certain: if you go into this movie expecting the truth, you'll likely get some of it, but not all of it. If you have ever seen a Michael Moore film, you know what to expect.

And what you expect is this: somehow, some way, Moore will inevitably make himself the story. From Roger and Me to Farenheit 9/11, it is his pattern. Michael Moore has only one overriding story in each and ever film he makes: "Look at what a great guy I am!"

This is the same guy who commandeered the Oscar stage and decided to turn what could have been a cool moment of sportsmanship -- inviting the other four nominees on stage, whom he beat simply because he's Michael Moore and that's how the Oscars work -- into a rant on political views 10 times worse than anything Richard Gere ever did for the Dalai Lama.

MICHAEL MOORE IS A GLORY HOG. I've seen enough of his work to know this is how he works. In "Roger and Me", it was "look how much more I care about my hometown than this big faceless corporate suit". In "Bowling for Columbine" it was "watch me stand up to the NRA and make them look like idiots". And now it's "look at me portray the people who have gone overseas as pawns controlled by an evil tyrant". Ooh, ain't you slick, Mikey?

And for the record, Michael Moore only started calling this propaganda when it became clear it didn't meet the standards of a documentary. He is on record as calling it a documentary early on. He is also on record as saying he hopes he can be single-handedly responsible for toppling George W. Bush. He basically wants to mold and shape the American political debate to serve his own fat ass. If he feels that way, why doesn't he run for office?

Oh, right. He's not an American. I forgot.

Okay, rant on Michael Moore over. I agree with some of what he says and disagree with some of it, but the bottom line is, he's a complete self-centered asshole whose ego puts mine to shame.

[zero]

What would a Michael Moore movie be with out the obligitory pimping of Flint.  I love how the mom pimped over the army on her kids, then all of a sudden *shock* *gasp* *horror*  her son dies.  Wait, what's that?  Oh you mean people die in war, well holy fuck!  Then she attempts to place the blame on Bush and the military.  Last time I checked there is no such thing as a draft.  And what does that mean?  Yep you guessed it, YOU CANNOT BE SEND TO WAR IF YOU DO NOT VOLUNTEER YOUR SERVICES TO THE FUCKING MILITARY.  So if you don't want your son to die, then don't pimp the military on him.  It's a sad story that he died, and that you couldn't afford to send him to college, but how can you in right mind blame the military for your son's death when he wouldn't have been there if it was for you.  Absolutely sickening.

Some kids have pretty much no choice other than joining the military to even have some hope of living a normal life. I haven't seen the movie, so going off what you said, the mom and her kid lived in Flint, which if you follow Michael Moore, you know is a pretty fucked city. So I'm sure they're poor but this kid wanted to go to college and the only way he could have possibly afforded it was to enlist. Now the time he enlisted, was it pre or post-9/11? Because if it was pre, how would anyone have expected there to be a war? We were enjoying a good amount of peace, save for a few things. Before 9/11, joining a branch of the armed forces was a great way to get said benefits, his mom urged him to sign up and then boom, terrorists everywhere. Now, regardless of all that, did the kid die in Iraq? Cause if he did, the whole point of the movie is THE FUCKING WAR IN IRAQ IS POINTLESS! 9/11 happened and was Bush's way of justifying everything he would not have been allowed to do on September 10. So yes, according to Moore, it is Bush's fault because we shouldn't have been there in the first place. My dad urged me to join the Airforce before 9/11, because I'd likely wind up behind a desk making a shitload of money, but once the attacks happened, he quickly stopped mentioning it. Of course I never had any intention of going, but I can certainly see where the mother was coming from, trying to give her son a chance at higher education.

Edited June 29, 2004 by Zero

[Mishmow]

I saw the movie, and was moved to tears. Those images were haunting, and the reactions from the soldiers who didn't think they should be there was sad. Of course Moore is going to exaggerate, but he's not going to flat out lie. The fact is we're in Iraq on a false premise, and it is one indeed. And, Bush DID steal the election. No, we don't have hard proof, because anyone who could get the information would be a friend of the family. The Saudi's are a greater threat than Iraq, and if we were to go to war at all, we should have gone after them.

Moore is a great storyteller, and gets you into it. Whether it's 100% or not, I loved this as a film. Funny, moving and well editted. And the images in Iraq should have been shown. Many of the members on EWB may well be fighting there if Bush gets re-elected. He wasn't even able to carry out his innaguration! Most of America hates him, the entire rest of the world hates him. And the fact Bush said he had war ON HIS MIND when dealing with situations. He's supposedly a devout Christian, yet he thinks nothing but death and corporate corruption. Fucking hypocrite.

I'd assasinate him gladly if it Cheney weren't his Vice - He'd be much worse.

Edited June 29, 2004 by Mishmow

[sahyder1]

What would a Michael Moore movie be with out the obligitory pimping of Flint.  I love how the mom pimped over the army on her kids, then all of a sudden *shock* *gasp* *horror*  her son dies.  Wait, what's that?  Oh you mean people die in war, well holy fuck!  Then she attempts to place the blame on Bush and the military.  Last time I checked there is no such thing as a draft.  And what does that mean?  Yep you guessed it, YOU CANNOT BE SEND TO WAR IF YOU DO NOT VOLUNTEER YOUR SERVICES TO THE FUCKING MILITARY.  So if you don't want your son to die, then don't pimp the military on him.  It's a sad story that he died, and that you couldn't afford to send him to college, but how can you in right mind blame the military for your son's death when he wouldn't have been there if it was for you.  Absolutely sickening.

←

Yeah it might surprise you but some people do join the military as a patriotic thing and in this case got duped into a phony war based on phony created intelligence to profit big business. That's why she's in Washington.

MICHAEL MOORE IS A GLORY HOG. I've seen enough of his work to know this is how he works. In "Roger and Me", it was "look how much more I care about my hometown than this big faceless corporate suit". In "Bowling for Columbine" it was "watch me stand up to the NRA and make them look like idiots". And now it's "look at me portray the people who have gone overseas as pawns controlled by an evil tyrant". Ooh, ain't you slick, Mikey?

Umm....he's also telling people's stories for them. Showing you stuff that you wouldn't see otherwise. How many dead Iraqis have been shown on American news in the past 15 months? How many stories have you seen on TV about Iraqi families being destroyed because of the war. 99% of the stuff is about "Iraqis are happy to have us there"......and the sad thing is a good amount of Americans do believe that. In Bowling for Columbine he takes those kids who where shot and tells you their story. It's his movie...it's a low budget movie. You want him to hire Tom Hanks to narrarate?

[Big Red Fury]

Some kids have pretty much no choice other than joining the military to even have some hope of living a normal life.  I haven't seen the movie, so going off what you said, the mom and her kid lived in Flint, which if you follow Michael Moore, you know is a pretty fucked city.  So I'm sure they're poor but this kid wanted to go to college and the only way he could have possibly afforded it was to enlist.  Now the time he enlisted, was it pre or post-9/11?  Because if it was pre, how would anyone have expected there to be a war?  We were enjoying a good amount of peace, save for a few things.  Before 9/11, joining a branch of the armed forces was a great way to get said benefits, his mom urged him to sign up and then boom, terrorists everywhere.  Now, regardless of all that, did the kid die in Iraq?  Cause if he did, the whole point of the movie is THE FUCKING WAR IN IRAQ IS POINTLESS! 9/11 happened and was Bush's way of justifying everything he would not have been allowed to do on September 10.  So yes, according to Moore, it is Bush's fault because we shouldn't have been there in the first place.  My dad urged me to join the Airforce before 9/11, because I'd likely wind up behind a desk making a shitload of money, but once the attacks happened, he quickly stopped mentioning it.  Of course I never had any intention of going, but I can certainly see where the mother was coming from, trying to give her son a chance at higher education.

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WRONG, Moore has admitted himself that this movie is nothing more than a personal attack on the Bush family, and not actually an attack on the premises of the war. If you had watched the movie you would have noticed that Moore's criticism of the war was only part of the bigger picture.

[zero]

WRONG, Moore has admitted himself that this movie is nothing more than a personal attack on the Bush family, and not actually an attack on the premises of the war.  If you had watched the movie you would have noticed that Moore's criticism of the war was only part of the bigger picture.

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As I said, I haven't watched the movie, but the point of the movie is how Bush used 9/11 to push his agenda. But the point still stands that a major part of Bush's agenda was the war in Iraq, and yes it's part of the bigger picture, but you get my point.

[thuganomic]

Actually, from what I understand, this movie is NOT a direct attack on Bush, as it also criticizes Clinton. Is that true? I have yet to see the movie.

[sahyder1]

Actually, from what I understand, this movie is NOT a direct attack on Bush, as it also criticizes Clinton. Is that true? I have yet to see the movie.

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Well he does blame the Democrats for not standing up to Bush on the Iraq war and just being a bunch of "yes men". He also talks about the whole senate in general for not standing up with with the members of the House of Reps who had protested the 2000 election results.

On a semi-related not he started Bowling for Columbine off with "The president was busy bombing another country who's name he couldn't pronounce".....and that was Clinton in office not Bush.

[Guest Bluesman]

Yep you guessed it, YOU CANNOT BE SEND TO WAR IF YOU DO NOT VOLUNTEER YOUR SERVICES TO THE FUCKING MILITARY.

Taken from an ap story:

"The Army is preparing to notify about 5,600 retired and discharged soldiers who are not members of the National Guard or Reserve that they will be involuntarily recalled to active duty for possible service in Iraq (news - web sites) or Afghanistan (news - web sites), Army officials said Tuesday"

More can be found here

[conniption]

MICHAEL MOORE IS A GLORY HOG.

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I don't understand this attitude at all. Moore's work is known precisely because of his oddball charisma and unique ability to present arguments and political views in unconventional, thought-provoking and funny ways. If he never put himself on-screen, if he tried to prevent his personal touch coming out in his shows and documentaries, he certainly wouldn't be putting out a film that became the highest selling documentary ever in JUST ONE WEEKEND.

This whole idea that he's a glory hog, in it for the money and/or publicity... is he supposed to keep his opinions to himself and make sure he never goes past the stating of facts to actually draw some conclusions in his work? Hell no. He's an artist, regardless of whether you think he's a good artist or not, and it's his role to get his message out and present it in the most effective and memorable way he can. Hasn't the Disney affair (and the trouble he had publishing Stupid White Men before that) tought everyone that if he didn't bust his ass to promote his work, they'd simply be shut down and suppressed by big corporations with their own reasons not to upset the applecart?

[Big Red Fury]

Taken from an ap story:

"The Army is preparing to notify about 5,600 retired and discharged soldiers who are not members of the National Guard or Reserve that they will be involuntarily recalled to active duty for possible service in Iraq (news - web sites) or Afghanistan (news - web sites), Army officials said Tuesday"

More can be found here

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They had to have volunteered at some point to be soldiers. What I was saying is that if you never volunteer in the first place, then you can not be a military casualty in war.

[sahyder1]

They had to have volunteered at some point to be soldiers.  What I was saying is that if you never volunteer in the first place, then you can not be a military casualty in war.

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Yeah, they volunteered years ago have have been back in civilian life for a few years now. They aren't mentally prepared to go to war.

[Mick]

I'm in a bit of a dilema.

In November, I intend to vote for President Bush. Nothing will change my mind about it, save a nuclear attack on some undeserving land.

That being said, my dilema is that I want to see the movie because of the controversy it is causing.

However, I don't want to put a single penny in Michael Moore's pocket.

I feel that attack the president on this level is just plain bad taste. And further Moore, contrary to popular opinion, Michael Moore is not the saint he portrays himself to be.

He asks congressmen if they will send their sons to fight in the war.

Did Michael Moore serve in the Army during Vietnam?

Where was Michael Moore during the draft?

Second, Michael Moore is not the poor guy from Flint. He was born in Flint, and lived there for most of his life, but now he's living the good life in New York.

Needless to say, unless they are a politician, anyone that has a chauffer and a stretch limo is not the common man.

Michael Moore may be exercising his First Amendmant right.

That's cool.

But what does it say about him if he threatens to sue anybody that says anything bad about his film?

SUE THEM FOR WHAT?

If I say publicly that Michael Moore did the wrong thing in his film, then he'll sue me, and take my 6 Matrix Reloaded Posters, my broken down laptop, and my PS2.

Way to go Michael. Really.

On an unrelated note, I intend to enlist in the military. As some of you may or may not know, you take an enlistment oath, which follows:

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend The Constiution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic...

Kind of fucked up. Here I am attackinh the man, and I have to defend his right to bash the president.....

That's pretty fucked up....

[sahyder1]

Did Michael Moore serve in the Army during Vietnam?

Where was Michael Moore during the draft?

Is Michael Moore sending people's kids off to war?

Second, Michael Moore is not the poor guy from Flint. He was born in Flint, and lived there for most of his life, but now he's living the good life in New York.

Needless to say, unless they are a politician, anyone that has a chauffer and a stretch limo is not the common man.

Have you even bothered to read his book? He doesn't say he's not living the good life. As a matter of fact he thanks Dubya for the tax cut he got people like him.

But what does it say about him if he threatens to sue anybody that says anything bad about his film?

SUE THEM FOR WHAT?

Am I missing something here? When did this happen?

[Mishmow]

I'm in a bit of a dilema.

In November, I intend to vote for President Bush. Nothing will change my mind about it, save a nuclear attack on some undeserving land.

That being said, my dilema is that I want to see the movie because of the controversy it is causing.

However, I don't want to put a single penny in Michael Moore's pocket.

I feel that attack the president on this level is just plain bad taste. And further Moore, contrary to popular opinion, Michael Moore is not the saint he portrays himself to be.

He asks congressmen if they will send their sons to fight in the war.

Did Michael Moore serve in the Army during Vietnam?

Where was Michael Moore during the draft?

Second, Michael Moore is not the poor guy from Flint. He was born in Flint, and lived there for most of his life, but now he's living the good life in New York.

Needless to say, unless they are a politician, anyone that has a chauffer and a stretch limo is not the common man.

Michael Moore may be exercising his First Amendmant right.

That's cool.

But what does it say about him if he threatens to sue anybody that says anything bad about his film?

SUE THEM FOR WHAT?

If I say publicly that Michael Moore did the wrong thing in his film, then he'll sue me, and take my 6 Matrix Reloaded Posters, my broken down laptop, and my PS2.

Way to go Michael. Really.

On an unrelated note, I intend to enlist in the military. As some of you may or may not know, you take an enlistment oath, which follows:

Kind of fucked up. Here I am attackinh the man, and I have to defend his right to bash the president.....

That's pretty fucked up....

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So, you think no one should be allowed to bash the president? Because it's DISTASTEFUL!? That's rediculous. Who has he threatened to sue? You can't sue someone for criticising a movie.

He didn't volunteer for war because he protested it. The reason he pressured the congressmen is because they were the ones who wanted the war, and so he felt it would only be just if they would send their own sons.

And you intend to enlist in the military....so, you're openly ready to shoot civilians and blow up their houses?

[thuganomic]

No, Mishmow. Don't even try and put any blame on the soldiers. Whatever your views are, to even suggest that soldiers want to openly shoot civilians and blow up houses is ridiculous.

[SeanDMan]

You can lead a horse to cake, but only he can eat it too.

[conniption]

A great quote from the New York Daily News:

Look, the Bush campaign spent $85 million in three months trying to convince the electorate that John Kerry is a flip-flopping left-wing threat to national security. Moore spent $6million to make his documentary showing that Bush is an arrogant, self-serving, dangerous buffoon who is a threat to national security.

This Onion article (yes, really) also offers a hilarious parody of the people who think criticism of the President is somehow unpatriotic or distasteful. Dammit, themick, you live in a democracy! Blind allegiance to the Commander-in-Chief and refusal to question him is what you do in a dictatorship. Which would you rather live in?

[sahyder1]

No, Mishmow. Don't even try and put any blame on the soldiers. Whatever your views are, to even suggest that soldiers want to openly shoot civilians and blow up houses is ridiculous.

Houses are blown all the time. I'll give you the shooting civilians part because a lot of those are because people panic when a gun is pointed at them and start running away resulting in them getting shot.