General Football Thread

[The Lusophone]

I feel like as time goes on, it becomes more and more likely that Leipzig tell Bayern no whenever they come knocking. It's not like Bayern can take advantage of economic uncertainty to get their best players, like they did with Dortmund and others.

[The Lusophone]

Someone posed a question on facebook that I feel like will get interesting responses here: does a player need success at club and international level to be considered truly one of the best ever, or do the club level accomplishments of the likes of Messi and Ronaldo make international success irrelevant?

[Baddar]

For me, Messi is one of the best ever whether he manages to win the World Cup with Argentina or not.

[9 to 5]

2 minutes ago, Mad Jack said:

Someone posed a question on facebook that I feel like will get interesting responses here: does a player need success at club and international level to be considered truly one of the best ever, or do the club level accomplishments of the likes of Messi and Ronaldo make international success irrelevant?

International success is not irrelevant, but nationality to me plays little part to a player's success. If a great player on par with say, Messi, emerged from say, the Cook Islands, the fact he would never likely play at a World Cup wouldn't make me view him any less. But Ronaldo winning the Euro's has helped him be more successful.

I know I am probably tripping over my own argument here but hope I am making some sense.

[MDK]

And try not to compare players from different eras. I consider Pele to be the best and most iconic footballer of all time but there is a massive jump between when he was in his prime and now.

[Colly]

Well yeah, he's in his 70s

[Baddar]

1 minute ago, Colly said:

Well yeah, he's in his 70s

He'd still beat Claudio Bravo though. 

[Hobo]

I don't think international success matters nearly as much as it did now that you can see club football all the time.

[TCO]

People say its a different era and different game, less physical, better nutrition etc. to diminish Messi's ability when comparing him to Pele, Maradonna and the likes. But then say he can't be the best because he hasn't won the World Cup. Its ridiculous.

World Cup means fuck all for his legacy. Its no longer the measuring stick, its one tournament every 4 years. You get 3-4 cracks of the whip if your lucky and even then you need an enormous amount of luck. Also, it's much harder to win the World Cup now. Messi is the greatest ever, enjoy him before he's gone in a few years.

Edited January 22, 2017 by TCO

[MDK]

1 minute ago, TCO said:

People say its a different era and different game, less physical, better nutrition etc. to diminish Messi's ability when comparing him to Pele, Maradonna and the likes. But then say he can't be the best because he hasn't won the World Cup. Its ridiculous.

World Cup means fuck all for his legacy. Its no longer the measuring stick, its one tournament every 4 years. You get 3-4 cracks of the whip if your lucky and even then you need an enormous amount of luck. Also, it's much harder to win the World Cup now. Messi is the greatest ever, enjoy him before he's gone in a few years.

I'd argue the other way. Nowadays the overall quality is so much better than in Pele's era and Messi and Ronaldo stand out in a stacked field of players.

[The Lusophone]

2 minutes ago, MDK said:

I'd argue the other way. Nowadays the overall quality is so much better than in Pele's era and Messi and Ronaldo stand out in a stacked field of players.

In terms of diet and technology and analysis and training and so many other things, things are so different that I don't think you can compare players from 30, 40, 50 years ago to today. Garrincha was a superb player but with how the media reacts whenever Jack Wilshere lights up would someone who smoked two packs a day have even got to the top of the game like he did? Or would he have been even better if made to abide by modern practices?

[MDK]

1 minute ago, Mad Jack said:

In terms of diet and technology and analysis and training and so many other things, things are so different that I don't think you can compare players from 30, 40, 50 years ago to today. Garrincha was a superb player but with how the media reacts whenever Jack Wilshere lights up would someone who smoked two packs a day have even got to the top of the game like he did? Or would he have been even better if made to abide by modern practices?

Difficult to say. Interesting thought, though.

Maybe one thing that hasn't changed too much is the goalkeeper. 

[Adam]

Depending how far back you go, I think the goalkeeper role has changed massively. They barely even used to dive, if shots hit the corners of the goal they were basically unchallenged a lot of the time and there's so much athleticism in a lot of modern keepers, not to mention the improving technical ability.

I love Neville Southall but just imagine him in the Premier League now. Imagine!

[MDK]

I meant in the skill 

1 minute ago, Adam said:

Depending how far back you go, I think the goalkeeper role has changed massively. They barely even used to dive, if shots hit the corners of the goal they were basically unchallenged a lot of the time and there's so much athleticism in a lot of modern keepers, not to mention the improving technical ability.

I love Neville Southall but just imagine him in the Premier League now. Imagine!

Hey, I'm just trying to get some discussion going (╭☞ ͠°‿ °)╭☞

[The Lusophone]

Speaking of changing roles, I feel like there's never going to be another Bobby Moore type player playing at the level he played at. 'Classic' defenders, especially in the full back positions, seem to have disappeared from the top of the game. Everyone's got to have end product and it seems like defenders are now just midfielders who stay back. Moore scored like 20 goals in his entire West Ham career, something like 700 games. Ramos and Pique have both already surpassed that in hundreds of games less.

[MDK]

3 minutes ago, Mad Jack said:

defenders are now just midfielders

Midfender

[Colly]

7 minutes ago, Mad Jack said:

Speaking of changing roles, I feel like there's never going to be another Bobby Moore type player playing at the level he played at. 'Classic' defenders, especially in the full back positions, seem to have disappeared from the top of the game. Everyone's got to have end product and it seems like defenders are now just midfielders who stay back. Moore scored like 20 goals in his entire West Ham career, something like 700 games. Ramos and Pique have both already surpassed that in hundreds of games less.

Mike Williamson.

[MDK]

I want the sweeper and player manager to make a comeback in football.

[Adam]

53 minutes ago, Mad Jack said:

Speaking of changing roles, I feel like there's never going to be another Bobby Moore type player playing at the level he played at. 'Classic' defenders, especially in the full back positions, seem to have disappeared from the top of the game. Everyone's got to have end product and it seems like defenders are now just midfielders who stay back. Moore scored like 20 goals in his entire West Ham career, something like 700 games. Ramos and Pique have both already surpassed that in hundreds of games less.

I can definitely agree with that at the elite top level but further down the pyramid I'm not so sure. We've got Andy Butler and he's as classic a centre half as you're ever gonna see.

[TCO]

1 hour ago, Mad Jack said:

Speaking of changing roles, I feel like there's never going to be another Bobby Moore type player playing at the level he played at. 'Classic' defenders, especially in the full back positions, seem to have disappeared from the top of the game. Everyone's got to have end product and it seems like defenders are now just midfielders who stay back. Moore scored like 20 goals in his entire West Ham career, something like 700 games. Ramos and Pique have both already surpassed that in hundreds of games less.

How many of those goals are from just being amazing in the air at corners though, rather than end product? Ramos in particular has a knack of reading a cross. I don't see how that diminishes their defensive abilities in comparison to Moore. They're just way better than any other centre backs with the ball at their feet. It's not like they're doing Cruyff turns and pulling out of tackles.