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You should fuck off. 

Daredevil renewed for a second season to come out next year!

It was fine.

Spoiler

It was basically Marvel cinematic universe in microcosm. Their ability to move beyond the conventional "superhero" genre and cast each story in a slightly different light was admirable for years, but every single time the third act fails to live up to the build.

We had a bunch of hype and some interesting opening episodes that raised questions, all for a final episode that amounted to two characters firing different coloured CGI magic at each other - which, frankly, is how every Marvel property to date has ended. So I was probably less engaged with the finale than with anything that came before it.

A ton of my friends are in group chats and Facebook groups that were poring over every tiny detail, hoping that this sign or this character would be a super significant clue, and really none of it ever was. It seems everyone was desperately hoping for this to be something much deeper or more complex than it was, when really it was a fairly straightforward sci-fi story told pretty well, but nothing more.

 

One of the reasons the MCU annoys me was evident among all of that, though - people freaking out about X happening or Y showing up because it's something from the comics, or predicting that the plot has to lead to Dr. Strange because that movie is coming up; it's all so meta, it's like second-guessing wrestling booking. But people have become convinced that Disney saying "you need to give us more money to see the rest of the story" or "hey look, it's that guy from that other thing you like" is good storytelling, and not just fanservice.

 

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The biggest flaw with weekly TV like this is it lets people spend way too long doing fantasy booking. Especially for Marvel where there's so much speculation between movies because we just accept the fact each one is going to lead into the next. That attitude carried over into TV show speculation, which as everyone who watched Game of Thrones can tell you just gets extremely messy.

It's my hope that some of the TV shows will be much more independent from the whole universe. This had its expected tie-ins to Captain Marvel 2 and, presumably, Dr. Strange 2. I'm skeptical if that will always be the norm.

Overall as a finale it was the best of the plot episodes, and they built up the characters well enough where there were actual stakes for Wanda at the end. A big complaint I've had with the movies is far too often the lack of actual stakes, but it felt like they were here now. Which is work well-done in just 9 episodes.

 

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Oh, and I disliked that Quicksilver was just gimmick casting. It relies on the audience knowing/expecting something based on out-of-canon/universe knowledge, not any emotional investment in the actual story. Again, the closest comparison is lazy worked shoot wrestling booking. It's aiming for a shock without putting the work in to earn it.

It reminds me of the last Avengers movie. They spend the entire movie teaching us that death in this universe is essentially reversible, but then give us Tony Stark's death as an emotional climax and this one's definitely real guys, not like any of the other deaths this movie has dealt with, or any of the other times we've told you that Tony Stark is either dead, dying or going to stop being Iron Man, this time it's real. The emotional investment comes from the viewer knowing that he's not contracted for another movie, not from earning the moment with any internal consistency from the story.

 

 

Also, the Ship of Theseus dialogue was cringeworthy. Vision asks other Vision if he's aware of it. They both are, yet having established that they explain it to one another at length. When they both already know it. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Skummy said:
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Also, the Ship of Theseus dialogue was cringeworthy. Vision asks other Vision if he's aware of it. They both are, yet having established that they explain it to one another at length. When they both already know it. 

 

Spoiler

I’ll give them a pass on that, as I’m sure it needed explaining to 99% of the audience 😅

 

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21 minutes ago, iDOL said:
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I’ll give them a pass on that, as I’m sure it needed explaining to 99% of the audience 😅

 

Spoiler

I just think it could have been handled a lot better; maybe have the Ship of Theseus metaphor brought up earlier in the episode, or in the previous episode. The FBI/SWORD guys could have used it, and then the audience be trusted to reflect on it when the two Visions face off. I just don't like that kind of thing where characters over-explain the central analogy to the audience.

 

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54 minutes ago, Skummy said:
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Oh, and I disliked that Quicksilver was just gimmick casting. It relies on the audience knowing/expecting something based on out-of-canon/universe knowledge, not any emotional investment in the actual story. Again, the closest comparison is lazy worked shoot wrestling booking. It's aiming for a shock without putting the work in to earn it.

It reminds me of the last Avengers movie. They spend the entire movie teaching us that death in this universe is essentially reversible, but then give us Tony Stark's death as an emotional climax and this one's definitely real guys, not like any of the other deaths this movie has dealt with, or any of the other times we've told you that Tony Stark is either dead, dying or going to stop being Iron Man, this time it's real. The emotional investment comes from the viewer knowing that he's not contracted for another movie, not from earning the moment with any internal consistency from the story.

 

 

Also, the Ship of Theseus dialogue was cringeworthy. Vision asks other Vision if he's aware of it. They both are, yet having established that they explain it to one another at length. When they both already know it. 

 

Spoiler

Yeah that dialogue was rough. They needed a quicker way to get that point across than a mildly popular high school thought experiment which they then had to turn around and more or less break the fourth wall to explain to the audience.

It's something that works in writing since you don't need the dialogue to do the explaining, but to shoehorn it into the show was quite misguided.

I'll disagree on the Quicksilver point. I felt it was more a way to quash the whole rumors of the X-Men universe merging with the MCU. They obviously had to know their audience would run with it, especially as episodes dropped on a weekly basis. That was probably be design since there was likely a bit of anxiety from higher-ups about people coming back every week (a big reason Netflix drops whole seasons at once is there's less a drop off so it has a positive return on the amount of people watching a later season). And I think from a narrative point having Wanda be messed with by Agatha in this manner worked better than any alternative. It maybe looked a little forced but I can't think of a better way to strike all the balance they probably wanted without casting Evan Peters for the role.

 

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Finale thoughts
 

Spoiler

My first thoughts was really that this series is the perfect example of why the MCU should be told in a series format instead of films. 

Genuinely, much better flow and storytelling and it just is a perfect example of why character development is crucial to good storytelling. 

Wanda and Vision went from being two recognizable but very much in the background of the group type of characters (save a few highlight points), to being these fully fleshed out, emotional beings within the MCU. Imagine how much more poignant Vision's death at Wanda's hands had been with a series behind them, as opposed to three films where they played two out of 30 to 60 characters vying for the same screen time. 

I also am just of the opinion that comic book stories translate better to television format than feature film. I think there's a lot to be said of having these mini series' work alongside each other and building together to these big even films like Endgame or Infinity Wars or Civil War whatever. If it were me, I'd restructure the MCU around it. That was my biggest take away.

In terms of the series finale... I didn't find myself upset at all about any theories being wrong. Personally, as a fan, I'm hoping this Bohner character ends up evolving into something a bit more than a random gag, as Evan Peters is such a fantastic character and should be a much bigger deal and acquisition within the MCU.

I'd love to see more of Agatha, so I'm hoping that tease line brings her back down the line somewhere. 

Maybe the kids come back as their adult counterparts in Dr. Strange 2? That could be what the end credit scene was about... I think it's clear she's looking for a way to bring them back. And White Vision will surely be a thing in some movie or show down the line, equipped with Vision's memories and his new powers. 

Excited to see Monica moving on to other things as well, likely it won't be Captain Marvel 2 but I'm excited to see where it goes. She was a good character who needs more screen time.

 

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On 05/03/2021 at 15:21, LittleDaniel said:

Yeah, it was a perfectly fine ending. I still definitely lost a lot of interest when it moved away from tv pastiche, but the finale was easily the best of the plot episodes.

This is where I am too. I enjoyed the intrigue of the early episodes then everything was flat until the finale. The finale is the first time since Endgame that I connected with Wanda on an emotional level. I love cool sci-fi stuff and surprises/reveals but it's meaningless without that emotional punch-- I'm coming out of the show feeling good about it because the finale finally delivered that.

Wanda was super relatable and heart-wrenching in the films to the point I teared up at Vision's death so a lot of WV was disappointing for me as I felt disconnected from it all, until the end.

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36 minutes ago, Roger Sterling said:

This is where I am too. I enjoyed the intrigue of the early episodes then everything was flat until the finale. The finale is the first time since Endgame that I connected with Wanda on an emotional level. I love cool sci-fi stuff and surprises/reveals but it's meaningless without that emotional punch-- I'm coming out of the show feeling good about it because the finale finally delivered that.

Wanda was super relatable and heart-wrenching in the films to the point I teared up at Vision's death so a lot of WV was disappointing for me as I felt disconnected from it all, until the end.

Huh, interesting...I was in the total opposite boat. 

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Yeah, I'd have to say that as the sitcom tropes started making way for more of the straight forward story, I felt more and more connected to what was happening. The last few episodes really hit me hard... the finale was great for that, but it was episode 8 that really stung and stuck with me.

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tbh I can't think of a single time anything in the MCU has hit me emotionally 🤷‍♀️

 

wait, no, i forgot agents of shield exists

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There are multiple times when I was hit emotionally in the MCU

Wanda killing Vision only for Thanos to rewind time and make her watch him die for a second time

”Mr. Stark, I don’t feel so good”...

Tony looking to Dr. Strange who holds up 1 finger, acknowledging that Stark understood what he had to do to make the one possibility happen

“you can rest now Tony”

Thats just Infinity War/Endgame. I honestly never thought that a series of comic book movies would ever play with my emotions so much.

 

Spoiler

Maybe it’s because I have a child and family of my own now and it hits home harder, but the ending truly crushed me. Tucking in Billy and Tommy, telling them “thanks for choosing me,” knowing she had to say goodbye. Then the final scene with Vision. I think it ended beautifully in a tragic way.

 

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3 hours ago, LittleDaniel said:

tbh I can't think of a single time anything in the MCU has hit me emotionally 🤷‍♀️

 

wait, no, i forgot agents of shield exists

AOS spoiler for one example for me:

Spoiler

When Bobbi and Hunter are forced out, and Mack is fighting back tears at their goodbye. 

 

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8 hours ago, iDOL said:

There are multiple times when I was hit emotionally in the MCU

Wanda killing Vision only for Thanos to rewind time and make her watch him die for a second time

”Mr. Stark, I don’t feel so good”...

Tony looking to Dr. Strange who holds up 1 finger, acknowledging that Stark understood what he had to do to make the one possibility happen

“you can rest now Tony”

Thats just Infinity War/Endgame. I honestly never thought that a series of comic book movies would ever play with my emotions so much.

 

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Maybe it’s because I have a child and family of my own now and it hits home harder, but the ending truly crushed me. Tucking in Billy and Tommy, telling them “thanks for choosing me,” knowing she had to say goodbye. Then the final scene with Vision. I think it ended beautifully in a tragic way.

 

Honestly, ever since having kids, I've been getting hit WAYYYYY harder with anything with kids. In Endgame, I totally had tears during some of the bits with Tony's kid. 

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I've never bought into Wanda and Vision's relationship because the entire thing happened off-screen, for no apparent reason except that they're together in the comics. The attempts at pathos fell flat for me because none of it's been earned.

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On 08/03/2021 at 07:04, Daniel Bryan said:

I've never bought into Wanda and Vision's relationship because the entire thing happened off-screen, for no apparent reason except that they're together in the comics. The attempts at pathos fell flat for me because none of it's been earned.

This I agree with fully... I think That's why this series worked for me, because it allowed me to understand their relationship and how deep it runs. It gave both characters proper depth... I don't need to see how the relationship started really, as most shows just write and establish characters as is (they have a life prior to the show and afterwards). But I agree, in the films, it fell flat.

Wanda killing Vision in Infinity Wars never did anything for me because I just had no clue there was a romantic thing going on with them... It didn't resonate much. 

That's why I think theses series' have the potential to really be something important and potentially game changing to the MCU. If it were me, and I've said it before, I'd go all in with the TV format and save the films for big cross over events like Endgame. 

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On 08/03/2021 at 07:04, Daniel Bryan said:

I've never bought into Wanda and Vision's relationship because the entire thing happened off-screen, for no apparent reason except that they're together in the comics. The attempts at pathos fell flat for me because none of it's been earned.

I think it hit me just because I found Wanda's pain relatable. Difficult childhood and then lost her brother the only family she had...then she finds something miraculous in her relationship with Vision only for it to be ripped from her in the blink of an eye...it made me think about how some of the amazing things in my life have been painfully fleeting and there's just no going back to recapture it sometimes.

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1 hour ago, Roger Sterling said:

I think it hit me just because I found Wanda's pain relatable. Difficult childhood and then lost her brother the only family she had...then she finds something miraculous in her relationship with Vision only for it to be ripped from her in the blink of an eye...it made me think about how some of the amazing things in my life have been painfully fleeting and there's just no going back to recapture it sometimes.

The only moment recaptured was Thanos reanimating Vision then killing him again. But yeah they built on that previous grief really well and that 'what is grief if not love persevering' line was an absolute killer. 

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We watched the Assembled episode that came out yesterday about WandaVision. Of all the things I learned, the best was that Paul Bettany wore a fake butt.

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Hearing that they had a lunch with Dick Van Dyke really shows the level of detail that went into making sure the shows were as accurate as possible for the different eras. Its just a shame that we didn't get a cameo from him.

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The guy from the Apple store in Captain America: The Winter Soldier is confirmed to be noobmaster69 from Endgame. He was in an Xbox commercial with Anthony Mackie, both in-character, playing video games like Destiny.

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Can't wait for Loki and the Winter Solider/Falcon show because I can watch with my kids. We tried to do WandaVision but they hated it. Maybe I can convince them all the coolest internet people that play wrestling simulators liked it and to give it a second chance. 

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25 minutes ago, VerbalPuke said:

Can't wait for Loki and the Winter Solider/Falcon show because I can watch with my kids. We tried to do WandaVision but they hated it. Maybe I can convince them all the coolest internet people that play wrestling simulators liked it and to give it a second chance. 

You should get new kids

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