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I'm mostly enjoying it. I think I agree that while Sebastian Stan and Anthony Mackie are doing alright with it their banter feels a little more inspired by a desire to do a buddy action thing than it being a genuine extension of their characters. Of course, I also feel like after all this time Bucky is still a character we're only really getting to know now, so.

I really really really like that they're exploring the Truth: Red, White, and Black idea, though. It's tough because I went in with incredibly low expectations about how this show was going to end up doing politics and now between suggesting that the Flag-Smashers are not the villains of the piece, invoking institutional racism the way they have multiple times in this second one, and John Walker's entire energy here feeling like he's going to reveal himself to be the prick he is in the comics they have me at a place where I can just be furious when they fuck it up.

 

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You should fuck off. 

Daredevil renewed for a second season to come out next year!

"Only an American would assume a fashion forward black man looks like a pimp."

Spoiler

Zemo is great. They're finally leaning into the Baron part of his name. That fuckin' coat, geez. I love it. And the mask is pretty badass, too.

Sharon Carter, good or bad? Some theories online that she could be working for either the Power Broker or with the Flag Smashers, or maybe even be the Power Broker. I doubt it, but something is up with her. She's definitely not the Sharon we last saw in Civil War.

MADRIPOOR! That's exciting, I want to spend more time in that place.

Karli straight up just becoming a terrorist with the car bomb is a little disappointing, I was starting to root for the Flag Smashers.

Zemo mentioning that Sokovia's neighbors cannibalized the country before the rubble had even been sorted through makes me wonder if Latveria is in the future.

Ayo from Black Panther cameo at the end! Not exactly a shock, since you've gotta assume Wakanda wants revenge for T'Chaka's death still. I wonder why Okoye or Nakia wasn't chosen for this, since it would have been a better reveal. Ayo is probably the 3rd most recognizable member of the Dora Milaje after Okoye and Nakia (ex-member), but it's a hell of a drop off after those two. I suspect we get a T'Challa cameo pretty soon. It would line up with how the director says an episode in the near future will make people cry. And this was filmed back in 2019, with reshoots last year, so it's possible. Chadwick was finishing up filming of Ma Rainey's Black Bottom when this was ramping up to film.

 

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Okay, this is probably just me nitpicking, but

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Did they really just put Helmut Zemo in some low-security German prison where causing a fistfight between inmates is enough of a distraction to enable you to just walk out of there? Wasn't he in some high-security prison the last time we saw him at the end of Civil War? How did he end up at some random JVA in Berlin? 

Also was that part that took place in Munich actually shot in Munich? Becuase that didn't really look like Munich to me. 

 

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So Steve and Natasha waltzed back in to the States after openly committing treason, but Sharon couldn't after secretly helping them out? And then for five years she never thought to ask them for help? And now she somehow thinks Falcon can get her a pardon? The guy who just broke a war criminal out of prison for basically no reason; although tough to hold that against him when it seems like Zemo could have walked out at any time, since all it took was a minor scuffle which I guess has never happened in this maximum security prison before, and he... phased through the glass in his cell?

That's before you even get into why Sam was pretending to be somebody completely irrelevant to the plan - because all black guys look the same I guess - except the barman clearly suspected something, or why else would he be staring him down until he drank that shot, which I guess proved he was the real guy even though he has a different face, but good thing Sam did get in so he could blow their cover after the dealer forced him to answer his phone on speaker because... the real Smiling Tiger (who, again, she didn't know) would never receive a phone call?

The show wasn't great before, but this episode turned a corner into aggressively stupid. :lol:

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Yeah, this episode veered between fun dumb (the comic bookification of Zemo so he's gone from a cunning, determined man with a deep grudge to... well, Baron Zemo) and unbelievably "what the fuck are you doing?" dumb for me. That phone call scene, woof.

 

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Taking Sam along in the first place was stupid. Surely a room full of career criminals would recognize a goddamn Avenger even if he wasn't one of the more prominent ones. 

 

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4 hours ago, Hellraiser said:

Okay, this is probably just me nitpicking, but

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Did they really just put Helmut Zemo in some low-security German prison where causing a fistfight between inmates is enough of a distraction to enable you to just walk out of there? Wasn't he in some high-security prison the last time we saw him at the end of Civil War? How did he end up at some random JVA in Berlin? 

Also was that part that took place in Munich actually shot in Munich? Becuase that didn't really look like Munich to me. 

 

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He was still in the Joint Counter Terrorist Centre when he broke out.

 

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12 minutes ago, tristy said:
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He was still in the Joint Counter Terrorist Centre when he broke out.

 

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I guess I was confused because what we saw of the center in the show looked nothing like what we saw of it in Civil War.

 And it makes it even weirder that security seems to be so lax in that place.  

 

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That was dumb as hell. I like dumb as hell for what it's worth but everything with Zemo was so silly and felt very out of place for what we've seen in the MCU, specifically how he basically turned into a bumbling criminal.

I get that there's a ton of anger at the new Captain America, but it was basically forced upon us after one scene. "Oh I don't like this guy, he's pretty annoying, time to break a criminal out of prison since I don't think we can work together" is hard enough to justify in a movie when you're running on a limited schedule. Even harder with a TV show.

It's obviously heading towards a couple threads converging but the main thread we've seen for 3 episodes has been largely not that good.

 

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Yeah, quite disappointed with that episode.

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The best part about Civil War was that Zemo wasn't an over the top, gimmicky supervillian, just a normal down to earth guy with a grudge and he did the most damage to the Avengers than anyone else ever managed (before Thanos). His comic-accurate costume was cool to see on screen but that along with the hilariously casual "oh by the way I'm mega rich with a private jet, a butler and I'm actually a Baron" line was such a departure from the previous incarnation. I like both versions but they don't really work in the same person.

The Madripoor scene was daft as well. I don't care if you live in the furthest, poorest country in the world from America, after the snap there's no chance on earth if you're savvy enough to know who the Winter Soldier is, you don't recognise a fuckin Avenger, let alone the one who's *also* always associated with Captain America.

I'd actually have preferred to see more of new Cap, since there's only what 3 more episodes to go? Struggling to think this morning what the actual point of the episode was. Didn't really move anything on except Zemo is out of jail for some reason.

 

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6 minutes ago, Kaney said:

Yeah, quite disappointed with that episode.

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I'd actually have preferred to see more of new Cap, since there's only what 3 more episodes to go? Struggling to think this morning what the actual point of the episode was. Didn't really move anything on except Zemo is out of jail for some reason.

 

Yea, I can't remember where it was, but I read something tonight that pointed out all the insane plot threads this show would need to close in 3 episodes.

The ones I can remember
 

Spoiler

 

Sam and his family business

Sam becoming Captain America (since the trailers shows him practicing with the shield)

The Flag Smashers (since this episode elevated them from "sympathetic antagonists" to "murdering terrorists")

John Walker going from Captain America to nationalistic US Agent (this episode did kind of plant those seeds)

Wakanda hunting down Zemo

Buckys apology list

Sharron Carter

 

There are probably a few I'm forgetting

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2 hours ago, Lint said:

Yea, I can't remember where it was, but I read something tonight that pointed out all the insane plot threads this show would need to close in 3 episodes.

The ones I can remember
 

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Sam and his family business

Sam becoming Captain America (since the trailers shows him practicing with the shield)

The Flag Smashers (since this episode elevated them from "sympathetic antagonists" to "murdering terrorists")

John Walker going from Captain America to nationalistic US Agent (this episode did kind of plant those seeds)

Wakanda hunting down Zemo

Buckys apology list

Sharron Carter

 

There are probably a few I'm forgetting

Spoiler

Have to think not all of the plot threads are getting closed and some are being used to introduce characters/concepts that will be explored in later series or films. The question is where they get explored.

Also, it occurs to me this show had a bit less marketing weight behind it than WandaVision did and I'm starting to understand why. They could not have been totally happy with the final product.

 

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13 hours ago, Daniel Bryan said:
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So Steve and Natasha waltzed back in to the States after openly committing treason, but Sharon couldn't after secretly helping them out? And then for five years she never thought to ask them for help? And now she somehow thinks Falcon can get her a pardon? The guy who just broke a war criminal out of prison for basically no reason; although tough to hold that against him when it seems like Zemo could have walked out at any time, since all it took was a minor scuffle which I guess has never happened in this maximum security prison before, and he... phased through the glass in his cell?

That's before you even get into why Sam was pretending to be somebody completely irrelevant to the plan - because all black guys look the same I guess - except the barman clearly suspected something, or why else would he be staring him down until he drank that shot, which I guess proved he was the real guy even though he has a different face, but good thing Sam did get in so he could blow their cover after the dealer forced him to answer his phone on speaker because... the real Smiling Tiger (who, again, she didn't know) would never receive a phone call?

The show wasn't great before, but this episode turned a corner into aggressively stupid. :lol:

Regarding Sharon Carter

Spoiler

In Endgame it is revealed that she was a victim of the Blip. So in the 5 years between Infinity War and Endgame Cap couldn't have helped her. And before that they were both wanted fugitives. 

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27 minutes ago, Hellraiser said:

Regarding Sharon Carter

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In Endgame it is revealed that she was a victim of the Blip. So in the 5 years between Infinity War and Endgame Cap couldn't have helped her. And before that they were both wanted fugitives. 

Spoiler

I assumed from this that they just thought she was snapped because she was in hiding. Otherwise it sort of implies that she's built this life as a high-end black market art dealer with deep ties in the international criminal underworld in the six months since she got back. 

 

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re: Zemo

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I think two things are simultaneously true, for me; this is a very weird, jarring turn for that character compared to what we saw in Civil War and also this take on Zemo is a way more sustainable idea for that character if they want to take Zemo to the places Zemo goes in the comics, and I very much want to get to those places. Kind of feel like I should be annoyed with it because Civil War Zemo is one of my favorite MCU villains and I think was deeply underrated but I can't be mad at Daniel Bruhl getting to have fun.

 

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I'm just finding this series so, so dull. The last episode was the first one that really felt like anything was actually happening, but also everything that was happening was extremely stupid. 

I don't buy the "buddy cop" dynamic between the title characters, and it feels completely unearned. It lends itself to the laziest of Whedon-Marvel "banter", wherein after a serious fight scene characters will momentarily default to being squabbling children so they can say something like "you're sitting in my seat" to end a scene with the cheapest of laughs. 

It feels like the exposition parts of a Marvel movie slowed down to a snail's pace, with no pay-off in sight. So, in essence, you're watching a Marvel movie with none of the stars. 

I'm sure now we're at the halfway point it will start to pick up, but even as someone who was quite critical of Wandavision - largely just as something not half as smart as it/people pretended it was - that was at the very least a show with fresh ideas, a great gimmick, and a hook to keep you coming back every week. I was never less than intrigued about what the next episode of Wandavision might bring.

This show just doesn't give me any reason to want to come back to it, and just feels like we're twiddling our thumbs with the C-team until someone actually important shows up. The only reason to keep watching is that Marvel FOMO, that maybe this one will give us some important information we need to remember for another movie in five years' time.

In a Zoom call last night, with people who are far bigger Marvel fans than me, only one of them was particularly enjoying it, and even then it was largely because he was second-guessing which story from which comic book they were building to, and what other actors he was anticipating showing up in episode 5, not that he was invested in the story they were actually telling. It's peak Marvel meta-narrative, where they've basically taken the "oh, it's that guy from that thing" experience of seeing a familiar face in a TV show and convinced audience that that's a substitute for narrative. 

 

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Gugu Mbatha-Raw is playing Judge Renslayer. In the comics, that's Kang's lover. Not to start the fan speculation early, but that's pretty interesting. But watch Marvel not even go that route.

There's also a split second in that trailer where it might be Sophia Di Martino with Tom Hiddleston, and again - fan speculation - but she might be Lady Loki.

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So my kids did end up wanting to finish WandaVision, and that was a lot of fun. 

Spoiler

My oldest boy is such a sweet heart, the end made him cry. I felt it too. 

 

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On 03/04/2021 at 07:28, Hellraiser said:

Regarding Sharon Carter

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Did it?  I don't remember that

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re: The discussions

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I've been enjoying Winter Falcon. But I think the biggest issue (especially last episode) was that everything was flying by at such an insane pace that there was no time to rest and figure out what was going on.

In episode 3 alone the following points were touched on...


- Meeting Zemo for the first time since Civil War
- Zemo breaking out (and Bucky helping him for vague reasons)
- Zemo revealing he's not a soldier at all and actually been a rich baron all along.
- Going to a whole new locale never touched upon (Madripoor), which visually is something that is unlike anything on earth in the MCU.
- Apparently everyone knowing who the Winter Soldier is, but not knowing that the past 5+ years he's been unprogrammed, in the city where knowledge is power.
-- Also nobody knows who Falcon is, a famous Avenger, again, in the city where knowledge is power.
- Sharon showing up, revealing that after the blip she got rich off selling stolen art and living under the radar.
-- I want to add to the above thing that it kinda makes little sense why Sharon wasn't taken off the fugitive list when every other person involved was...
-- Also, whilst Sharon probably learned from Nick Fury, it seems like she's a different person entirely. Sharon didn't seem like someone that can just decide to become a hardened criminal...
- And a lot more things happening. Like revealing that there's more super soldiers, and that NuCap is weird and creepy.
- Oh, they also figured out that the bad guys were too sympathetic, so the leading lady decided to become a hardened terrorist now.

Basically. So much shit happened in a 50 minute episode that it's hard to come to terms with most of the things going on. And a lot of the plot points needed time for exposition, especially the Zemo stuff was quite jarring and needed a better/longer explanation than what was given.

Also the whole power broker/Madripoor stuff also needed a lot more explanation. There being power brokers, Zemo having so many connections that make your head spin, and all sorts of other reference that even flew over my head (and i'm very quick, so nothing goes over my head!).

Basically all that happened needed two if not three whole episodes to really be established, but it got flown through in one. And as a result most of Madripoor felt like side-tracking that is quickly forgotten about again because we're now back in the 'normal' world.

This series should probably have been a few episodes longer, because they're clearly showing that six just isn't enough to get every plot point in.

Especially since this series also tries to do a lot with institutional racism and white exceptionalism (Falcon being accosted by police for being heated at a white man, John Walker the perfect blonde/blue eyed 'symbol for America', etc.). But there's just not enough time to let anything sink in.

 

 

 

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I'd definitely agree that having seen the first three episodes, this series should definitely have been longer than the six episodes it got. Nothing has any time to breathe. Wandavision clocked in at about 6 hours total and the pacing felt way better, we're halfway through that less with FATWS and it feels like they've crammed in twice as much as the whole WandaVision series already.

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2 hours ago, Lint said:

Did it?  I don't remember that

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IIRC it happened in the beginning of the movie when they catch Captain Marvel up on what happened on earth during Infinity War. They use the holographic display they have at Avengers HQ to show her that Nick Fury was among the 50% of earth's population that disappeared. During this scene a picture of Sharon Carter and her name show up on the display as well. It's very "blink and you miss it". 

Apparently in an early draft of Endgame, she and Captain America were living together post-snap. But she was ultimately written out of the movie. 

 

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The overstuffing that seems to be a problem in Falcon & Winter Soldier makes me worry about Loki, which is similarly only 6 episodes.

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