SirMichaelJordan

18 hours ago, TheWho87 said:

Would that be as a tribute show or something?

Just now, SirMichaelJordan said:

 

Not necessarily a tribute show but it's a indy event that brings in legends and top indy guys in the business. Its one of the biggest indy shows in the year. 

Any plans to add annual wrestling events like Wrestlecade?

This insight could help with setting some personalities. These quotes come from Adam Ryland.

paraphrasing

Quote

personality, it's a key element in whether someone can work without a script or not.

Quote

Good microphone skills are essential for scripted promos. They are important for unscripted promos, but require certain personality quirks.

Quote

It's not about needing a specific personality, it's about avoiding certain things, such as shyness (i.e. lack of boldness).

I agree with the colour comentary observation also. 

Personaliies is something thats really underuse in TEW IMO. It really is a miscellaneous category. Celebs fit here if they were to be added. Someone like Jojo, Eve or Renee (probably rate Renee on ENT) could be added to a angle to give interviews and you probably would base them on sex appeal for the fact they will most likely just be holding the mic vs someone like Coachman who would also be a colour commentators and would get rated on entertainment during a interview segment. Or maybe a old school type of interviews where there isn't much entertainment going on from the interviewer but just asking of questions, he'd be rated on mic.

Note that ring announcer aren't really represented in the game. Annoucer is refering to PbP announcer.

Closes thing to a ring announcer in the game and would be more realistic is Personlity. Someone like Lilian Garcia and Jojo should be personalities. I don't ever think Jojo would be calling matches so I would remove announcer from her.

Nice. Some really good ratings over there.

I'm not sure if you've addressed this before... but shouldn't SmackDown be taped on Tuesdays? I'm not sure why Superstars and Main Event are scheduled on Fridays, either, as I'm pretty sure they're filmed on a Monday and Tuesday respectively.

I use to have the B shows on the same day as the A shows so they would tape Raw and Superstars then Smackdown and Main Event however the AI would pick the venue to cater for the B show and not the A show thats why the A and B shows are seperate. As for Smackdown on Wednesdays, likley down to human error.

encase you didnt add them, Adrian Neville is now just Neville and is no longer in developmental with WWE as well as Sin Cara and Kalisto were called up. CJ Parker has also been released from WWE.

the NXT callups are included, might have missed Parker though.

I thought the A/B show venue bug was fixed.

How about Reality Of Wrestling could you add that as a none active also?

Reigns selling should be bumped a bit if its on the low end and Brock's Psychology deserves to be increased a little bit (if its on the low end as well)

That WM main event had some pretty decent psychology in it and there were power moves to start the match

Just because someone is a "legend" or has been around longer doesn't automatically mean that they're going to be better at psychology, though. There were plenty of people back in the '80s and '90s who wouldn't be considered to have "good" psychology by any standard. It's dependent on the promotion too - I'm not talking about the size of the company, but the product - in ROH or PWG, for example, you can get away with a much more move-heavy style because that's what their product is tailored towards, but it's not necessarily an indication that the people involved were worse at story-telling than anyone else, it's just what's expected of them in that situation.

The Ultimate Warrior and Sid Vicious both fit your timeline of "guys wrestling 20-30 years ago were better at Psychology", but I don't really think anyone would ever claim either was a master of the art.

If you go back and watch ECW shows from the mid-90s, there are guys hitting Powerbombs in the first two minutes of the match and the opponent kicking out on one. If that happened on an indie show today, I'm sure people would criticise it for the lack of psychology and demand that the culprit's stats be lowered accordingly - but when it's guys like Chris Candido, Lance Storm or Taz, do you really believe the likes of those three couldn't "tell a story"? Or is it more likely that they were having a specific type of match because of the expectations placed on them by the promotion, the time period, and the audience? It's really not as cut and dry as "older guys are better at psychology".

Similarly, if you watch much Lucha Libre, the "psychology" by US standards is all over the place. The match might open with the False Finishes (which you can swap out for "Comeback" in the Shine-Heat-Comeback-Finish routine), and you might not get a Shine until the closing couple of minutes. They might not sell for a long string of moves, or might get beaten down for twenty minutes only to start busting out somersaults to the floor. Does that mean that every Luchadore in the game should have their Psychology stat lowered because it doesn't fit your narrow view of what Psychology entails.

If it's about whether you're a veteran, or whether you're an "indie guy" - did CM Punk become better at Psychology overnight when he signed with WWE? Or was he always that good? The Shield were praised, early on, for their grasp of psychology in matches and in their beatdown angles - but all three guys were relative newcomers by your terms, and all under 30. Are they arbitrarily worse at Psychology than, say, Jerry Sags or Ron Reis? I mean, those guys have been doing it longer, they're the veterans, so by your logic they'd be better at it?

There are plenty of guys on the independent scene with a masterful grasp of psychology - but you seem to be interpreting psychology along very narrow lines. While one of the biggest criticisms of the independent scene is that many indie wrestlers are more focused on hitting as many moves as possible in one match rather than telling a story, that's simply not true of all independent wrestlers, and you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the more moves there are in a match, that automatically means the psychology is worse, and that isn't the case.

I am not sure where you got this idea but I never said EVERY guy from 20-30 years ago where better at in ring story telling than today's wrestlers nor did I suggest that all old school wrestlers should be rated higher than every modern wrestler...That is where you are getting at with your rant. I am sure there are old school wrestlers that are poorly rated at psychology in the mod and besides that, I am not talking about how Random Joe Texas from the 80's should be better than Indy guy #2 because he was from a era...again, I'm sure there are tons of old guys in the mod with poor psychology.

I did say that one era were more advance at the art of psychology then the other but that doesn't mean Ultimate Warrior should be rated much higher than Adam Cole...So I am not understanding where you are coming from with that.

I am talking about a gap between the upper echelon psychology master from the old school (Taker, Flair, Hogan, etc) vs the upper echelon of today and not Sid Vicious or someone who sucked in that area to fit your narrative. Besides, Im sure Sid has better in ring story telling than some random Indie guy so I am not seeing your point there either. Fact is, Sid worked live matches on TV for both big companies, I don't see how indy wrestler #24500 is so much better with less experience. They both might suck but I am sure the vet sucks a little less...

A company tailored to be a spot fest or not is irrelevant as psychology is all about knowing when to or not to perform a spot, how to use the many moves in your arsenal its about drawing emotion from the crowd with great timing and in a sense "telling a story" ...So if a power bomb to start the match make sense then I don't see how anything is wrong with that because there's a difference between pulling off as many crowd pleasing moves as possible vs doing a lot of moves that make sense for the match. Maybe the guy delivering the power moves so early is trying to take advantage of a smaller and weaker opponent...

ECW was known for being over booked so I don't see your point in saying "Indies get criticized for doing the same thing" the people you named were known for being able to tell a story and Jerry Lynn (not mentioned but was the best in the company at psychology) was great at telling a story, its not a coincidence that RVD's best matches were against this guy. He made RVD's move sets and spot make sense instead of being all over the placed.

And what you just wrote in your Luche Libre example is telling a story and in fact, thats their bread and butter...Its not how a WWE match would go but its a sense of drama involved in there and there is a story being told. Ring Psychology is not only rest spots, working on a limb or body part to set up a finisher...Good Psychology is like having the ability to put all of your cool ideas (moves and spots) into a good movie script instead of a poorly written script like all the SAW moves after SAW 1. Those movies have all of the cool ideas but they were all over the place and most of the cool kills didn't make any sense.

Also, CM Punk was with WWE for nearly 10 years, you don't think he got better at in ring story telling? Beside, you also miss the point as I never said veterans only deserve a high rating in that area...

The example you use of "60 is not good" is based on your own comment -

fact to have a attribute to be considered "good" (according to filters) you only need a 66/C+ minumin

Think about what YOU are saying, then maybe, just maybe, you will understand what is being said to you.

Your own post kind of proves my point anyway, Robbie E is 31, the post in question was made in late 2013 when he would have just turned 30. Hardly a veteran of the old days but with "pretty good psychology". It is not therefore out of his own advice to put some of the better workers on a borderline position, something like 60 seems reasonable enough within the realms of the game for someone who is one of the top workers as far as basics and in ring ability but still has a lot to learn about this element of things. It's where the guidance of those Road Agents brings them up. They're fairly stand out in large elements but lacking that something. Since we're using Cole as an example - he's a young worker who after 8 years has worked all over the world and is widely regarded as one of the best despite his young years. He's worked with some great people both in the ring and behind the scenes and is bound to have absorbed things from them, I'm sure you'll say Liger is shit but I'd trust in and around his matches with Cole they communicated at some point. In the note here, he says he'd give Christopher Daniels an 80, who has Cole been doing programs against for RoH on and off?

I'm only arguing the merits of one person here, because it's the example you bought forward, I don't know every single person in the world and you're going to be exactly the same. For that reason though I'm arguing against your blanket change, I think as a general rule of thumb the fairly conservative estimates given by TheWho in most stats helps some form of balance which creates a relatively accurate picture. It won't be perfect and people will haggle over details on it but it's not a bad reflection people are roughly where they should be for the most part. My personal opinion is that Jimmy Havoc could do with a boost, although he's not particularly mainstream I think he's charismatic - he only seems to need to look at people for them to want to dismember him - and is brilliant at telling a story in the ring - his recent Progress match against Will Ospreay is one of my favourite matches which told a compelling story I've seen for a few years - but someone else may think entirely the opposite.

Thats relative to a big company.

A 60 in a small company is not the same as a 60 in a big company...There are many bonuses that the game give for stats and some of the stats like phycology are relative to the segment grade when considering bonuses/penalties. Small companies aren't getting grades in the 80's like a WWE...

A 66 in a National level company is good while a 66 in a Small level company is excellent.

Works the same as having a E- company pulling out a E+ show grade, thats a great grade for that company but a terrible grade for someone much bigger.

I think thats the disconnect here.

Also, saying that Robbie E has a good rating in phycology stat doesn't mean he's getting a 70 or even a 80....First off all you'll notice the OP mention that he assume he had help from the bookers meaning that he do not believe Robbie was calling the match and second of all TNA is not that big of a company so a 60 would be a serviceable rating. Booby Roode was only a 70 in his eyes...

You'll notice not much if any all the top full time active wrestlers broke the 80's in his example. He gave veteran guys who were great in this area 100. 100/80 is pretty much the same gap of 90/70.

Whether there's a raise in veterans from the old school or a decrease in the new crop of worker, the original point was there needs to be a bigger gap between the two especially since the development area in the game has been patched since release.

There is no sliding scale of psychology, every wrestler in the game is rated on the same 0-100 method so the size of the company is not REALLY a relative factor in things like psychology, Word of God has already explained that psychology effects don't really change from point to point and you'll be raised/dinged in the same way regardless of company size. If we take that 60 is slightly above average, the top independent wrestlers of the world can comfortably tell a decent/good story in a match and that would be covered by a 60. What will happen is that they will ultimately peter out at a lower peak without the guidance of the right people and that's right and realisitic. Most wrestlers improve and learn more by working more matches, including of course some with more experienced workers and working in different areas.

Who said Robbie E was a 70 or 80? What he said was that he must be pretty good, that would probably put him in at around 60 but it's hard to tell as he doesn't have many top row skills which is relatively understandable on the basis that the WWE head trainer until this week was someone who was never more than a midcard jobber to the stars, the replacement not reaching a much higher level. He probably has the help of an Agent (which 90% of matches in the world don't) but there's a reason TNA stuck a green Jessie and at times reckless Zema Ion with Robbie E, he plays the role of the vet and they're there to learn more from him.

Honestly though, if you're going to use exactly what Derek B was saying regarding those things you're getting nowhere. While it's a good general guide when he gives examples of skills it is entirely his own opinion piece. He rationalises why HE would put people at a certain figure but it is easily debatable as a lot of these things are. A blanket rise on Vet A because he's old, or a blanket drop on Seasoned Hand B because he's younger on an age plucked out of someones arse still makes no sense. What makes sense, and is right, is that not everybody will necessarily become a 100% psychological mastermind and less will do it without the right guidance but the people who can do that will vary. They may have a decent base but it's down to how they're handled if they're going to make the next big step up. Treat Adam Cole with his slightly above average psychology as the big vet and he won't get much farther, put him in the ring with more experienced opponents and he will get better. It's fairly straight forward and the mod generally represents that and ultimately it's small fry haggling over people we like and don't like.

You're right, "technically" the rating is not relative to a company's size but the way the game works, the higher the match grade the higher the worker's psychology needs to be.

So since a indy company shouldn't be putting on 70's & 80's rated matches a psychology rating around 50 is more than enough to avoid penalties and is considered a good rating when main eventing at a small company vs someone main eventing WWE. Heck, it may be good enough for a WWE undercard where Indy guys will be starting at once on the main roster. (and built up from there) as mention before, you only need a 66 to use call in ring without penalties at a small company's main event (you cant at a big company since the segment grade should rate well beyond a 66)

In a nutshell, segment length and quality determines how high psychology needs to be presented in a match (it uses the worker with the highest psychology rating and it needs to be a certain % of the match grade)

At this point we are really arguing two different points. I don't really care where Adam Cole is set at, I'm not arguing that he should be a 50 instead of a 60 but rather the gap between legends and current talent needs to be bigger. My suggestion was to make the gap wider by reducing full time active wrestlers by 10 while making the case that its ok to lower guys in this stat without hurting things. Maybe raising legends by 10 and making guys like Taker a 100 is a better way to widen the gap. But my original point wasn't about individual workers...

DerekB worked on the game (tester) and the CVerse (expanded) so his opinion is valuable when it comes to modding. I don't care where he rates a certain guy because ratings are subjective but what's important is how he rates. It doesn't matter if he thinks Bryan is a 85 in psychology and Cena is a 84 what does matter is that someone like Taker, Hogan and other legends are rated much higher than the current wrestlers. Its not because he say it should be that way, its because its what its actually like in real life. Anyone who've been around will tell you guys from 20-30 years ago were better at telling a story in ring than the current stars of today. For one, guys weren't doing 1001 moves and had to tell a story with the basic moves they had.

The example you use of "60 is not good" is based on your own comment -

fact to have a attribute to be considered "good" (according to filters) you only need a 66/C+ minumin

Think about what YOU are saying, then maybe, just maybe, you will understand what is being said to you.

Your own post kind of proves my point anyway, Robbie E is 31, the post in question was made in late 2013 when he would have just turned 30. Hardly a veteran of the old days but with "pretty good psychology". It is not therefore out of his own advice to put some of the better workers on a borderline position, something like 60 seems reasonable enough within the realms of the game for someone who is one of the top workers as far as basics and in ring ability but still has a lot to learn about this element of things. It's where the guidance of those Road Agents brings them up. They're fairly stand out in large elements but lacking that something. Since we're using Cole as an example - he's a young worker who after 8 years has worked all over the world and is widely regarded as one of the best despite his young years. He's worked with some great people both in the ring and behind the scenes and is bound to have absorbed things from them, I'm sure you'll say Liger is shit but I'd trust in and around his matches with Cole they communicated at some point. In the note here, he says he'd give Christopher Daniels an 80, who has Cole been doing programs against for RoH on and off?

I'm only arguing the merits of one person here, because it's the example you bought forward, I don't know every single person in the world and you're going to be exactly the same. For that reason though I'm arguing against your blanket change, I think as a general rule of thumb the fairly conservative estimates given by TheWho in most stats helps some form of balance which creates a relatively accurate picture. It won't be perfect and people will haggle over details on it but it's not a bad reflection people are roughly where they should be for the most part. My personal opinion is that Jimmy Havoc could do with a boost, although he's not particularly mainstream I think he's charismatic - he only seems to need to look at people for them to want to dismember him - and is brilliant at telling a story in the ring - his recent Progress match against Will Ospreay is one of my favourite matches which told a compelling story I've seen for a few years - but someone else may think entirely the opposite.

Thats relative to a big company.

A 60 in a small company is not the same as a 60 in a big company...There are many bonuses that the game give for stats and some of the stats like phycology are relative to the segment grade when considering bonuses/penalties. Small companies aren't getting grades in the 80's like a WWE...

A 66 in a National level company is good while a 66 in a Small level company is excellent.

Works the same as having a E- company pulling out a E+ show grade, thats a great grade for that company but a terrible grade for someone much bigger.

I think thats the disconnect here.

Also, saying that Robbie E has a good rating in phycology stat doesn't mean he's getting a 70 or even a 80....First off all you'll notice the OP mention that he assume he had help from the bookers meaning that he do not believe Robbie was calling the match and second of all TNA is not that big of a company so a 60 would be a serviceable rating. Booby Roode was only a 70 in his eyes...

You'll notice not much if any all the top full time active wrestlers broke the 80's in his example. He gave veteran guys who were great in this area 100. 100/80 is pretty much the same gap of 90/70.

Whether there's a raise in veterans from the old school or a decrease in the new crop of worker, the original point was there needs to be a bigger gap between the two especially since the development area in the game has been patched since release.

The idea that everyone born after 1975 has no idea how to tell a story just seems illogical to me and to me just isn't true. If people can make a very good argument for everyone under the age of 40 failing to understand how to build to a hot tag or mount a comeback then by all means lower everyone but that a RoH champion might be rated "decent" doesn't seem too absurd to me. If nearly everyone in the game were rated in the 80's or 90's then there'd be a point but it doesn't seem particularly broken aside from haggling over people we like/don't like. I suspect 99% of people who touch a mod would argue for different stats for different people, it's why I hate trying to suggest stat changes.

I did not say any of the sort...

Except the part where you said to mass edit everyone under the age of 40 to have lower psychology. It's not in as many words but that's the suggestion you made.

Point is in TEW, you don't need to be a 80 to be consider to have good phycology, in fact to have a attribute to be considered "good" (according to filters) you only need a 66/C+ minumin. The idea of lowering someone translating into saying that a person suck is the reason why so many real world mods are inflated with high stats...

That's fine, people around the lower to mid 60s aren't "good", they're decent and those in that region are about right. Those who are on the better end of that scale should be around 60, you agree with me.

Mass edit made sense considering everyone is rated by scales and the scales seem to be from 1-10 and are put into a category. Every top full time wrestler that are considered good has a 80 for phycology then you have your next tier of workers. I agree with the tiers for the most part, the gap just isn't big enough from the new generation of workers to the old school. Plus it makes those old semi active and retire workers more valuable to the game as road agents, trainers, in-ring trainers.

No, mass editing really didn't make sense. The suggestion that everyone under the age of 40 are automatically several tiers below people over is just silly. Looking through highest rated matches and although it's subjective the age isn't really a factor. CM Punk and Samoa Joe were having phenomenal 5* rated matches for Ring of Honor in their mid 20s. You may not rate them per se, but it doesn't mean that they can't do the required job. Jake Roberts is widely accepted as one of the all time greats for ring psychology and he was only 31 when he had his brilliant feud with Macho Man and was a washed up mess by the time he was 40 due to the myriad of demons he had. He only really had about 5/6 years at the top level.

Example. You mention that "decent" doesn't seem absurd to you for a top ROH talent (Cole), well the thing is, if you drop him to 50 (from 60) he will still be listed as "decent".

48/D+ (actually 47.1/D+) is the average in the game.

You can get a good idea of the scaling in the game by messing around with the quick set worker skill presets. "Strong" is a C minimum (60). "Excellent" (The highest) only need a B minimum (78).

Yes, and a 25 year old who is rated as one of the 10 best wrestlers in the world* at the moment is someone who I'm sure is a good contender to be rated Strong and on the upper level of that standard. There would be an argument possibly for raising that but I personally think 60 at this stage in his career is about right. Of the top 10, 5 of them are under 30, 1 is over 40. Number 1 is 33.

*according to PWI500, I know it's not 110% reliable but it's not too far out and a general gauge of the wrestling industry. It at least shows people who are amongst the most highly regarded even if you don't agree with the specifics.

The idea that everyone born after 1975 has no idea how to tell a story just seems illogical to me and to me just isn't true. If people can make a very good argument for everyone under the age of 40 failing to understand how to build to a hot tag or mount a comeback then by all means lower everyone but that a RoH champion might be rated "decent" doesn't seem too absurd to me. If nearly everyone in the game were rated in the 80's or 90's then there'd be a point but it doesn't seem particularly broken aside from haggling over people we like/don't like. I suspect 99% of people who touch a mod would argue for different stats for different people, it's why I hate trying to suggest stat changes.

I did not say any of the sort...

Except the part where you said to mass edit everyone under the age of 40 to have lower psychology. It's not in as many words but that's the suggestion you made.

Point is in TEW, you don't need to be a 80 to be consider to have good phycology, in fact to have a attribute to be considered "good" (according to filters) you only need a 66/C+ minumin. The idea of lowering someone translating into saying that a person suck is the reason why so many real world mods are inflated with high stats...

That's fine, people around the lower to mid 60s aren't "good", they're decent and those in that region are about right. Those who are on the better end of that scale should be around 60, you agree with me.

Mass edit made sense considering everyone is rated by scales and the scales seem to be from 1-10 and are put into a category. Every top full time wrestler that are considered good has a 80 for phycology then you have your next tier of workers. I agree with the tiers for the most part, the gap just isn't big enough from the new generation of workers to the old school. Plus it makes those old semi active and retire workers more valuable to the game as road agents, trainers, in-ring trainers.

No, mass editing really didn't make sense. The suggestion that everyone under the age of 40 are automatically several tiers below people over is just silly. Looking through highest rated matches and although it's subjective the age isn't really a factor. CM Punk and Samoa Joe were having phenomenal 5* rated matches for Ring of Honor in their mid 20s. You may not rate them per se, but it doesn't mean that they can't do the required job. Jake Roberts is widely accepted as one of the all time greats for ring psychology and he was only 31 when he had his brilliant feud with Macho Man and was a washed up mess by the time he was 40 due to the myriad of demons he had. He only really had about 5/6 years at the top level.

Example. You mention that "decent" doesn't seem absurd to you for a top ROH talent (Cole), well the thing is, if you drop him to 50 (from 60) he will still be listed as "decent".

48/D+ (actually 47.1/D+) is the average in the game.

You can get a good idea of the scaling in the game by messing around with the quick set worker skill presets. "Strong" is a C minimum (60). "Excellent" (The highest) only need a B minimum (78).

Yes, and a 25 year old who is rated as one of the 10 best wrestlers in the world* at the moment is someone who I'm sure is a good contender to be rated Strong and on the upper level of that standard. There would be an argument possibly for raising that but I personally think 60 at this stage in his career is about right. Of the top 10, 5 of them are under 30, 1 is over 40. Number 1 is 33.

*according to PWI500, I know it's not 110% reliable but it's not too far out and a general gauge of the wrestling industry. It at least shows people who are amongst the most highly regarded even if you don't agree with the specifics.

You totally miss the point. And I am not saying the rating should be based on age... Its a poplar opinion that phycology in today's wrestling is a lost art, its a rare attribute to have these days and it should be reflected in a mod that is trying to replicate the modern era.

and FYI having a 5 star match doesn't translate into having high phycology. other things like Basics, Consistency and In Ring Skills factor in. You're opinions are coming from "this is how I feel" rather "this is how the game is designed to work".

Example of that is "a 60 is not good" which is false considering we were talking about indy wrestlers. a 60 for someone is a decent rating in a company like WWE but its a great rating for a small company and 66 at a small company is equivalent to someone with rating of 80+ in WWE as they will be able to call the match and get a bonus. Again this is not EWR.

For reference

Psychology: This is the ability of the wrestler to get the fans into the story of the match. The story is whatever is defined by the booking, the characters involved and generally anything else going on around it. Being able to tell this story via the way the match unfolds is a universally desired skill in wrestling and it is one of the key things in the difference between a star and a superstar. Being able to mesh the characters of everyone involved in a match, pace the match to tell a story and hook the crowd from start to finish is the hallmark of this particular stat. It’s also one of the things most talked about by veterans as being something of a lost art. Most wrestlers know the idea of “Shine-Heat-Comeback-Finish” as how to build a match but being able to tell a ide variety of stories is the most important skill in a match. Without this, it doesn’t matter how good you are in the ring, you’ll lose something. In every match that goes down in legend, there is at least one person in there with a huge psychology rating. Ric Flair was great at it (about 100). Hulk Hogan was better at it than I’m generally willing to admit (90ish). The Undertaker is a master of it (about 100), able to get a great match out of everyone by meshing the characters together perfecttly (his match with Festus is still an awesome example of this). Shawn Michaels is another guy who was awesome with everyone because he could tell a story with anyone, another guy close to 100 and the reason why he has so many Match Of The Year awards (thanks to awesome stats across most other areas too). Of the current generation of wrestlers I would say this is a stat that is a little lacking, and that’s one of the reasons why there are so few breakout superstars. John Cena follows in the Hogan cast of psychology but isn’t as good at it (low 80s). CM Punk is probably WWE’s best and I’d only put him in the mid 80s. Chris Jericho is talented but again, probaly the mid 80s. Randy Orton, as much as I don’t find him very interesting, is someone who I would put at about 80. Triple H… he’s a guy that has a lot of talent but that has never been able to carry anyone to a legendary match, he’s in the low 80s for me too. Edge is another guy who I feel took so long to truly breakout because his psychology wasn’t strong enough. Good skills in most areas, but wasn’t quite able to have the amazing matches that would put him over the top. Daniel Bryan is sitting somewhere in the 80s range, though I’m not sure exactly where I’d place him. Christian Cage is probably WWE’s most under-rated in this regard, with him being someone I’d put in the mid 80s for psychology but who lacks a little in other areas and has probably his his popularity cap at B-, forever stopping him becoming as big a star as his talents would let him. As for TNA… one of the reasons Sting is still a wrestler is because he has good psychology, probably in the high 80s but he’s also in Time Decline and not able to get the most out of himself any more. Kurt Angle is someone I’d put in the mid 80s, maybe even the high 80s as he is able to have some very good matches against everyone. Bully Ray I would have in the low 80s/high 70s as he’s always been able to work well with people and has truly begun to show that he is capable of doing so in singles. As for TNA homegrown stars, AJ Styles is a mid 70s kind of guy, Samoa Joe is probably mid/high 70s while Christoper Daniels is a very solid hand in this regard and likely close to an 80. Daniels is a good all rounder, but is just missing something that stops him becoming a star even though he is so very good. Aries is very good here too, always able to create a match that works well with whoever he is against though I’d place him in the low/mid 70s. Bobby Roode is in a similar range as Aries for the same reason, as is James Storm and Abyss.

I had to break up that paragraph as it was getting unwieldy. In general, psychology is a trait that can only be learned through being in the ring and wrestling a lot. Unless a rookie has shown an incredible aptitude for pro wrestling, this stat is rarely going to even be above a 50 when they debut. Breaking the 70 barrier is fairly uncommon and that is why it’s so important to find people who can teach psychology. Veterans, particularly those from the old territory days, have worked squillions of matches and have worked against hundreds or thousands of people so they know how to adapt and to work with all sorts. This is what gives people the ability to use “Call In Ring” during a match, being able to use what they’ve learned to react to the live crowd and make the most of any reactions they get. In the days of heavily scripted TV and decreasing input from individual performers in storylines, the art of psychology is becoming lost. And in a real world mod this should also be the case. It adds huge value to a worker with big psychology, which adds another layer of strategy and realism when playing, something that is lost if a mod over-rated everyone. As for lesser workers, it’s often hard to tell how good they are. I remember one match recently in TNA featuring Robbie E/Rob Terry vs Wes Brisco/Garrett Bischoff before they joined Aces and Eights. It was the best all of those guys have looked in ages and I have to assume that it’s because Robbie E put a lot of it together, along with the TNA agents. And when I look at Robbie E now, I realise he has pretty good psychology when it comes to his matches… he’s just not very good in the top row and has a comedy gimimck that will keep him in the lower reaches of TNA forever given their product.

The idea that everyone born after 1975 has no idea how to tell a story just seems illogical to me and to me just isn't true. If people can make a very good argument for everyone under the age of 40 failing to understand how to build to a hot tag or mount a comeback then by all means lower everyone but that a RoH champion might be rated "decent" doesn't seem too absurd to me. If nearly everyone in the game were rated in the 80's or 90's then there'd be a point but it doesn't seem particularly broken aside from haggling over people we like/don't like. I suspect 99% of people who touch a mod would argue for different stats for different people, it's why I hate trying to suggest stat changes.

I did not say any of the sort...

Point is in TEW, you don't need to be a 80 to be consider to have good phycology, in fact to have a attribute to be considered "good" (according to filters) you only need a 66/C+ minumin. The idea of lowering someone translating into saying that a person suck is the reason why so many real world mods are inflated with high stats...

This is not EWR.

Mass edit made sense considering everyone is rated by scales and the scales seem to be from 1-10 and are put into a category. Every top full time wrestler that are considered good has a 80 for phycology then you have your next tier of workers. I agree with the tiers for the most part, the gap just isn't big enough from the new generation of workers to the old school. Plus it makes those old semi active and retire workers more valuable to the game as road agents, trainers, in-ring trainers.

Example. You mention that "decent" doesn't seem absurd to you for a top ROH talent (Cole), well the thing is, if you drop him to 50 (from 60) he will still be listed as "decent".

48/D+ (actually 47.1/D+) is the average in the game.

You can get a good idea of the scaling in the game by messing around with the quick set worker skill presets. "Strong" is a C minimum (60). "Excellent" (The highest) only need a B minimum (78).

Attribute levels (the levels you'll see if you play with Fog of War on) are listed as.

Abysmal

Very Weak

Weak

Below Average

Average

Above Average

Strong

Very Strong

Excellent

IMO. I think you should mass edit all workers that are under the age of 40 (or full time active wrestlers) Phycology by 10.

Phycology is probably the only thing that is overly rated in the mod and it stands out because Physcolgy is a lost art in today's wrestling. Its glaring in the Indies where most matches are move after move and for the most time some of the matches come off as stunt work instead of workers telling stories. One guy that really stand out is ACH who has a 60 which is considered as an overall "decent" rating in TEW (according to search filters)

Someone like Adam Cole who is only about 25 have a Phycology of 60. That is slightly overrated considering a 66 (C+) at a small level company is considered great and will be able to use the "Call in Ring" booking decision without penalty. Also Sami Zayne (and all of the best under 40 young wrestlers) is a 80, Taker is a 90. That is too close of a gap considering 90 seem to be the max you gave workers which is not bad at all.

Hey, this is the my first time using your updates for TEW. Good update, and I enjoy how you went through and lowered everyone's stats to reduce stat inflation that is present in most real-world mods. I do have one concern though. Why is star quality and sex appeal seemingly very all over the place? From the best description of where to rate stats (Source - http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524746), I have trouble understanding some of the choices.

Star Quality: Last but not least in this section is a stat that is universally helpful. Quite simply, the innate look of being a star. Don’t confuse this with recognising someone who is already a star because it is NOT that. There is a certain intangible quality that some people have, whether it be in their body language or their look. They just shout out to the world that they are a star, they are important, they are talented or something like that. The Rock is pretty much a perfect example of Star Quality. He was good looking, he was charismatic (both different stats) but what he had was a certain swagger, poise and charm that made him stand out from everyone else. You put him in a line-up with almost anyone else and ask people to pick out a star, and even people who don’t know him would single him out. You put Mick Foley in that same line up and he wouldn’t even get a second look. Mick Foley is popular and a highly successful star in his own right several times over, but Star Quality isn’t something he has a lot of. He became a a star despite lacking Star Quality and the poor guy gets this argument used on him every time I make this point. This stat CAN go hand in hand with high sex appeal, menace or charisma but it is generally something unique to a person. Hulk Hogan had it in spades though has lost some since his peak (I’d still sit him in the 70s for Star Quality now though, more than Mick Foley ever had). The Ultimate Warrior was packed to the gills with it. The Rock has it. Stone Cold had a lot of it, but not as much as anyone else mentioned so far (I’d set him in high 80s/low 90s even at his peak). John Cena has a lot of it but not as much as Austn (I’d go with high 80s). Batista oozed Star Quality too, one of the best for Camera skills in recent times with high 90s here. In terms of Divas, Trish had huge Star Quality… there was just a presence with her that wasn’t just her boobs looking you in the face, there was more. The current crop of gals wish they had what she had but most of them are simply attractive but with nothing to say “I’m a megastar” about them. Which is kinda why the Divas get overlooked a lot… there is some talented girls there, but they don’t have star quality the same way that some of the Attitude Era girls did. Tamina Snuka? Eve? The Bella Twins? Rosa Mendez? Mediocre star quality… though the Bellas might be a little better off in that regard than the others. As for the effect of the stat… it adds a little to everything a worker is part of, so while you might not see any obvious effects the little extra boosts you get will slowly add 0.1 popularity here and there. After a while it all adds up. At 100 I think this stat adds about 5 points to your contribution to a segment AND it helps you to shift a lot of merchandise, which is profit for your company.

One example on here is Mick Foley, who you have set to an 80 in Star Quality, and personally I would lower him down to 40 or 50, for the reasons stated above. Other notable examples: Rey Mysterio having 90 star quality. He is another worker I would personally say became popular despite low star quality, rather than being popular because of high star quality. I would personally lower him to 40-60. Jeff Hardy and Kurt Angle have 90, but I would argue that somewhere around 85 would be more accurate. I think a 90 on Star Quality should be reserved for the top 5 or so of the active workers in the database. Last, I see a massive amount of workers having 0 star quality. I would disagree with this. I believe that a zero would be reserved for literally just the average person or an announcer and such. You currently seem to have a zero as the baseline, where I would argue baseline for a wrestler should be somewhere like 50. If you have less, you are actively un-star-ish. Having more the opposite. I see loads of NXT, TNA, and Indie talent having absolutely zero star quality. Baron Corbin, Kalisto, and many others all have zero. I personally would say that a star quality overhaul is needed to make this more playable. Not saying everybody needs to be high, but giving Kalisto something like 40 star quality isn't unreasonable, and Baron Corbin would probably have at least a 50 (there's too many examples that I see to go through them one by one and give suggestions, just pointing out some examples). Bray Wyatt I see has a 50 and would arguably need a bump. His pure aesthetics may be about a 50 but the way he presents himself would indicate being at least a 70 in my opinion, especially if Jack Swagger has a 60.

Similarly, Sex Appeal probably needs the same treatment. A large portion of the database is 0 in this as well. I think the stat guide summarizes this for me best, so I'll just paste that here as well.

Sex Appeal: This is mostly important for women, as not only are they the fairer sex but they are generally the least intimidating one (unless you are dating them, obviously ). A gorgeous girl is fairly obviously gorgeous to most from a fairly short viewing on TV or from a handful of pictures so it shouldn’t be too hard to ballpark a value for their Sex Appeal. Most of the WWE Divas and TNA Knockouts are going to be in the 80 range for this, with some of the particularly attractive girls going above and beyond this. Many of the most popular females in these two companies have gotten there based on their looks as much as their talents, though the very best tend to have both. Trish Stratus was a high 90s sex appeal, Stacy Keibler, Torrie Wilson, Christy Hemme, Dawn Marie, Mickie James… some beautiful girls who all deserve 90+ in the Sex Appeal stat. Others probably around that range might include Lacey Von Erich, So Cal Val, Kelly Kelly (so good they named her twice)… the very atractive girls are going to be able to get over initially based on their looks and when the cap on that kicks in, their talents can take them the rest of the way. Don’t worry about being a little generous when you mod this particular stat, this is one where you can go a little bit too far without worrying about breaking the balance of a mod. In terms of males, sex appeal really isn’t a good way to push someone to get to the top of the wrestling world, so they tend to get lower ratings partly for that and partly by just not being as attractive. Anywhere between 20-40 would be a good range for a not-un attractive guy. Anything higher than that and we’re talking the kind of guys that girls will quite happily look at for ages, andonce you start to get above 50 we’re talking some seriously good looking dude. In the Cornellverse there are only a handful of guys above 60, with Champagne Lover basically being a Hollywood heart throb in the low 80s, which is where guys like Brad Pitt or George Clooney or whoever is an extremely attractive and famous man these days. I’m so out of touch with culture that my attempts to make pop culture references are never going to go well. Some guys that seem to be very popular with the ladies these days in pro wrestling include Randy Orton (60ish), John Cena (60ish), Batista (50s, though I’m not sure why), John Morrison (probably the highest scorer I can think of, 70s), Dolph Ziggler (50s, maybe 60s), AJ Styles (50s, maybe 60s as girls I know seem to love him). But primarily, sex appeal applies mostly for women in terms of generating popularity rather than for men.

I saw for example lots of the NXT female roster having 0s for Sex Appeal, and most males in the game having 0 as well. For the females, this is almost game-breaking, since that's one of the main ways to get a female popular. I would say that most reasonable looking females should have a minimum of 50 for this stat, only being lowered by people who are actively unattractive like Awesome Kong or such. (Just as an example that comes to the top of my head, some may disagree with my opinion of Awesome Kong's sex appeal) For males, it's less game-breaking, but still nice to have for accuracy's sake.

For both star quality and sex appeal, I wouldn't be the best to single out individual people and give recommendations for who should have what, but I just wanted to bring up that both stats are currently not where they should be at on a database-wide scale.

I agree with star quality. It improves some over time but not as much that a "0" as a base would be useful. I would set the base somewhere between 40-50.

I think star quality for Wyatt at 50 is about right. What you were describing about Bray Wyatt was Charisma, guys like Wyatt, Foley, Bryan and even Stone Cold have lots of Charisma but not much of star quality.

Star quality based on WWE's definition (since they dictate the market) is pretty much anyone who doesn't look like a indy wrestler or someone that stands out in a crowd.

I would say a check list would look like this...

1) Does he/she look like a body builder?

2) Does he/she look like a model?

3) Does he/she look like a movie/TV star?

4) Does he/she look like a rock star?

5) Does he/she look like a greek god, Titan, larger than life?

...and for a bonus question... Are they second generation or have any celebrity family ties?

Of course the more they relate to those question, the higher the stat probably would be.

Cody Hall would probably be one of the highest rated Indy wrestlers in this category.

- Bellatrix and World Association of Wrestling are the same Promotion. WAW was renamed to Bellatrix a few years ago

- have you thought about adding some new Gimmicks? Especially in NXT there are a few unique Gimmicks. (Sami Callihan's Hacker Gimmick, The Vaudevillains Gimmick and Enzo Amore, Big Cass & Carmella with their realest guys/girl in the room Gimmick just to name a few)

It depends on how you view things, technically they are both run by the Knights under the same umbrella, sort of simalar to NCW and NCW Femme Fatales work and you could argue since I combined them into one promotion then WAW and Bellatrix could be mixed together but they do both put on shows under seperate banners in different directions so to me its just easier to keep them seperate

I am open to new gimmicks but I would like to have them to be a bit generic not just one specific gimmick for one specific person cause seems a bit of a waste.

I probably just missed it, but why are New Japan and WWE Cult sized companies and not National?

Its how the promotions are set up popularity wise, with the old game world set up it was easy to jump from Cult to International so to have them as National was difficult to set up. To be honest I dont look at "this promotions should be this level so make them that level" I look at whats more realistic popularity wise and for WWE in most cases has been coasting along for years and is currently set with a minimum US level of B- which is around the level I feel they are at.

Is Dwayne Johnson (The Rock) really currently just Light Heavyweight? With his size and muscle-mass?

edit: oh, none of the angles have any storyline impact? That's sad.

Are you arguing an increase in size for The Rock?, since he is in Hollywood he does obviously change in size for his roles, the size in game is roughly based on his last in ring period.

The angle pack is Rated R's from TEW10 which is inspired by EWR, if there is a good basic pack for TEW13 please point me in its direction, going to go with Idol's iNSPIRED angle pack from now on.

Might want to bump the B- (I usually give WWE a 75 but this is with the C Verse game world settings) up until it reaches national because Cult size companies only run 1 TV show. So when the AI WWE's Smackdown contract is up they will not renew it leaving WWE with only RAW.

I don't know if you are interested in doing this or not but I've found a way for WWE to stop raiding NxT's roster within the first day of a save and stop veteran indy guys from saying that they do not want to sign a dev deal because they can't improve much.

Raise their potential to a high level and set their maturity level low (18 years old works fine) so they won't progress as much. This will just give workers a higher ceiling for improvement rather than their stats already reaching its ceiling therefore feeling that they do not have room for growth.

Original TEW 2013 C-Verse Game World Settings.

Area Set Up

Game World Trends

By default database I guess you mean C-Verse, I forgot to back it up so could someone do screenshot or take a note of what the trends are set as and I'll add them in.

If no one else does it, I'll do it because I plan on updating personally so I'll already have screen shots saved.

I've notice that the settings for the game world haven't been touched or is very generic. (Japan doesn't even have loyalty and young lion system enabled) I suggest changing it to what the default universe have it set at.

In the trending section, I would also bump down mainstream wrestling a bit and raise traditional and modern up in the USA. TNA and WWE are suffering IRL because of their mainstream take on wrestling. TNA are suffering way more than WWE of course and probably should be borderline Cult or very High regional (drew 400 - 600 fans in NY!)

I didnt play around with much in case I broke something, I did set Puro and Lucha popular for Japan and Mexico which i felt was key.

According to what you put that would make traditional and modern to popular and have mainstream as unpopular.

I meant from what the default database have everything set to, not this mod. I'm not in front of the game right now but I think everything was set to normal in the mod while in the default database there were a lot more variation and seem to be based on real life. Mainstream was set to very popular or its highest level in the US, not normal.

I've notice that the settings for the game world haven't been touched or is very generic. (Japan doesn't even have loyalty and young lion system enabled) I suggest changing it to what the default universe have it set at.

In the trending section, I would also bump down mainstream wrestling a bit and raise traditional and modern up in the USA. TNA and WWE are suffering IRL because of their mainstream take on wrestling. TNA are suffering way more than WWE of course and probably should be borderline Cult or very High regional (drew only 400 - 1000 fans during their recent NY shows!)

I personally wouldn't rate them no higher than E+.

If Axel or Tyson kidd was still under NXT, they'd be their highest popularity guys but at only like a D-

But it all depends how a mod was setup. I believe a E+ would make a comapny regional depending where it has popularity at.

From the mod guide.

D- = National level undercarders, cult level lower midcarders. I have to admit, I'm looking at the list and I'm already thinking I've over-rated most of the WWE guys in this section. A lot of the WWE divas probably fall in this range or lower, but I care so little for them that I couldn't bring myself to rate them. At the indy level, getting to this means you are pretty much the king of the indy scene. Top ROH guys are probably hitting this range these days.
WWE: Big E. Langston, Curtis Axel, Ezekiel Jackson, Fandango, Epico/Hunico, The Usos, Tyson Kidd, Sami Zayne (El Generico, maybe)
TNA: Hernandez, Kazarian, Brooke Hogan (fame of her father mostly), Gail Kim, Madison Rayne , Velvet Skye,

EXTRA FOR BALANCE: Once again, with ROH's popularity set around here we would have their top guys set to have popularity around the level of the company (Regional) as they push towards cult. Similarly, those are the kinds of guys who could avoid being at the bottom of the WWE totem pole and could jump into the TNA midcard with a little help, which is nicely balanced as that is whast often happens in real life. Sadly I have a lack of indy knowledge, but in terms of balance this would lead to the AI being able to do a lot of things logically. And it would play out the way real life goes, which does come with the downside of perhaps making the game a little less interesting as the WWE has hurt wrestling so much with bland programming.


E+/E/E- = Most talented indy guys that have been wrestling for years, various cast offs from the WWE who never made it very far. These are mostly the kinds of people you get headlining indy shows and filling up the upper range of regional level companies. TNA has a lot of guys in this range who they have been bringing in, though they are fairly scattered and your may have a different opinion on exactly where they place. But in terms of who is above these guys, I don't think it can be argued with, so the precise numbers would be down to personal interpretation.
WWE: 3 Man Band, Yoshi Tatsu, guys the WWE have signed from the indy scene who made a bit of a name for themselves
TNA: Christian York, Doug Williams, Gunner, Jessie Godderz (remains of crossover fame), Joey Ryan, Kenny King (top end, rising), Rob Terry, Robbie E, Zema Ion, Miss Tessmacher, ODB,

I don't know about AJ being the most popular diva, yea she's over with the smarks but she isn't known that much in the mainstream. The Bellas are the most known divas as they get work outside of WWE and are most recognizable.

As for top NXT guys coming to the main roster and being more "over" than some current guys, of course smarks are going to cheer but it doesn't mean they are over. IWC are vocal but does not make up the entire WWE universe. Ricochet would be "over" if he showed up on Raw tonight if we are basing things on IWC perspective.

IWC's perspective is performance based so popularity shouldn't be overrated to compensate for the reactions from the internet.

1. Ricochet wouldn't be over if he appeared on Raw because he wrestles under a mask on a show that does around 33,000 viewers a show and outside of that, the most exposure he has gotten is as a footnote in the NJPW Jr. division. No one knows who he is.

2. Sami Zayn is the featured champion of a promotion that does, at a conservative guess based on 1m subscribers, 600,000 viewers a show and is heavily featured in WWE (not NXT) social media and websites. People would buy tickets to see Sami Zayn (over 2,000 just have), no one would buy tickets to see Curtis Axel or Jack Swagger.

3. On EWB, using the term 'smarks' automatically invalidates your argument, regardless of what it is.

You're argument is based on assumptions which also automatically makes it invalid.

What is your point on a WWE product having 1mil views? Is that suppose to qualify any of the top NXT workers to break a D- to D+ rating?

The Ricochet comment was tongue and cheek but Zayn also worked in a mask before WWE and still, people cheered for him the moment he stepped in an NXT ring because the SMART fans knew who he was already. Smart fans know who Ricochet is.

As for having their first big audience...

1. That show is right in the middle of The Arnold Festival.

2. ROH does about 1000-2000 in attendance and they are a regional company which grades around D- to D+ (assuming the person didn't drastically change the game world settings) A regional company in TEW 13 will get you those numbers on the default game world settings. For balance, rarely should there be any workers rated above the company's grade. NXT would rate close to ROH so their top guys would rate around D- to D+...Which would most likely put them in the lower mids on WWE's roster. But even then the highest rated guys in pop on NXT should be WWE main roster talent who were sent down. With NXT product being rated on performance rather than Pop, guys like Zayn and Owens would still main event.

FYI, a guy like Zayn would have high momentum.

I don't know about AJ being the most popular diva, yea she's over with the smarks but she isn't known that much in the mainstream. The Bellas are the most known divas as they get work outside of WWE and are most recognizable.

As for top NXT guys coming to the main roster and being more "over" than some current guys, of course smarks are going to cheer but it doesn't mean they are over. IWC are vocal but does not make up the entire WWE universe. Ricochet would be "over" if he showed up on Raw tonight if we are basing things on IWC perspective.

IWC's perspective is performance based so popularity shouldn't be overrated to compensate for the reactions from the internet.