Emperor Fuckshit

Just re-read my above post in the cold light of about 1:30, and would like to make a couple more points. Then I will leave you all alone.

i) I'm genuinely not quite sure how my original post (which was about revivalism in music) was interpreted as a kind of essentialist statement that particular types of music should be limited to particular geographical areas or 'races'. Does this slightly de-sloppified version do anything for anyone?

I watched the J-Ska video. The problem is that it [...] just feels so ersatz. I mean, ska originally arose as a Caribbeanisation of American jazz: it has a distinct history and character of its own despite drawing on at least two obvious sets of influences. Is J-Ska like that, [in having a distinct history behind it]? Does it, [say], blend traditional elements of Japanese music with ska itself in a continuation of [a] dialectical process? Or is it just a bunch of Japanese kids who have heard some Specials LPs?

What I was getting at was that, originally, ska drew on a noticeable set of influences whilst still being distinct from what had gone before it. And I wanted to ask whether J-Ska was also like that in being original (but sincere and respectful of that which it was claiming a debt to). Anyway, it's no big deal... I don't think I'm the first person to have been misunderstood on the internet.

ii) My last post might have seemed like it was some kind of Hegelian shit, presenting music as a completely dialectical process in which someone takes a genre, adds a new element, creates a new genre, and the process repeats. Obviously, that's a bit simplistic: people draw on wide pools of influences to different degrees, and what they add doesn't necessarily have to be musical (it can be political / cultural etc). But I think it's the case that people are moved to make music because they have built up a frame of reference, and, within that, see ways to modify, 'correct' or fill in gaps.

iii) I made some references to 'straight revivalism' (and similar) in my last post, but I do agree that, in the last analysis, it's impossible to step in the same riff twice. Dismissing, say, Bloc Party and Franz Ferdinand as just poor imitators of their 80s forebears (Gang of Four, Mekons, The Au-Pairs, Delta 5, Josef K, bits of The Fall, Minutemen, Mission of Burma) may not be inaccurate, but it is slightly reductive. There are still unique things about this 'second wave' (their lack of engagement with wider political and artistic movements as compared with the bands listed earlier, their different musical influences and reference points, their slightly poppier sound) that are worth explaining. It might not make much difference to your evaluation of the bands generally, but those things are still there.

Right. Hopefully I've managed to say something intelligible. Next time it might not even take me three posts.

Incidentally, though, I think 'Father's Day's is a much better attempt at an emotional song by Frank. The vocal delivery is much better, the lyrics are a little more subtle (yet still range from the wry to the distraught via the pissed-off), and it's clearly a very personal thing for him to be singing about (maybe 'The Queen is Dead' is too, but I wouldn't have guessed from the song itself). I also think he made the right move by changing the title from 'My Dad's a Cunt'. I wouldn't list it as an 'affecting' song for me personally, but for someone for whom the lyrics resonate a bit more, I could easily see it being spot-on.

For me, the thing about LLTQ is that it tries to juxtapose emotional wroughtness with folk jauntiness, and leaves itself in some kind of no man's land. Also, the lyrcis really are quite bad and scan terribly.

Yeah, they're incredibly sneaky cunts generally.

Sorry to bump a somewhat old thread, but I forgot about this one, and only just noticed Dragsy, YI and Skumfrog's posts, and thought I'd better cuntily clarify some of my cunty opinions.

I don't think anyone has ever come across as more of a cunt when discussing music. So because I'm a white middle/working-class guy, I can't go out and start rapping, because I'm not black and from the streets?

It's not to do with ethnicity or 'credibility' (in terms of social class), but more to do with how 'sincere' the appropriation is, and whether or not it adds anything new to the genre. What's the point in J-Ska existing if all it does is amount to jukebox-y cover versions of some Japanese kids' favourite ska tunes? (By the way, I should point out that I know basically fuck all about J-Ska, and was framing my comment in an 'if this is what it's like...' manner, which I thought I made pretty clear).

Music crossing over previously-existing cultural and 'ethnic' boundaries can be a fantastic thing. For example, 70s Punk made an obvious attempt to incorporate reggae into its sound, and many Punk bands did cover versions of reggae songs both due to the latter genre's association with political resistance and counter-culture and as a sign of good-will from a (mostly) white musical movement towards a (mostly) Black cultural movement. Sure, this wasn't a principle that was accepted across punk (cf Johnny Rotten and "the niggers don't have to like us"; M.E.S. in a sense -- although he's a personal fan of reggae he usually keeps it quite distinct from his own work; Oi! and, most obviously, Rock Against Communism) and the actual quality of the musical output was sometimes questionable (a lot of 'Sandinista!'; Gang of Four's skull-shuddering Marley cover). But that doesn't matter: the spirit of the movement was correct, in that it unified two complementary strands of political, anti-authoritarian music together with genuinely anti-racist motivations in mind.

In an 'equal but opposite' vein, Bad Brains drew on traditionally 'white' forms of music, combined that with reggae and made something incredible.

But to view genres as just a bunch of stylistic options that an artist can draw on freely without any cultural implications is too simplistic. If a movement of middle class whites attempted to adopt stylistic elements of 'rap', but contented themselved with subject matter relating to how well their GlaxoSmithKline shares were doing or how long they have to wait to get seen at the dentists' surgery, they'd be explicitly challenging and seeking to redress the historical functon of the genre known as 'rap'. There's no denying that: it would amount to a repudiation of rap's history as a channel for Black working class experience.

This is not, incidentally a Black-white thing. Rap is already an area in which there is significant division between Black artists. Look at the way ithe genre's associations with Black Power and Left-wing politics have morphed into a glorification of Black masculinity, misogyny and personal wealth gain. This, too, has been the subject of debate and dissention within the genre, and within Black cultural criticism generally. On the other hand, like him or not, Mike Skinner has at least had some success in re-phrasing rap/hip-hop in a way that makes a significant musical departure, and redefines it as a conduit for White working class experience. I don't know a tremendous amount about his work, but I at least find it interesting.

People always want to reduce this into a discussion about what they "can't" or "aren't allowed" to do: that's incredibly weak, since no-one is advocating censorship of anything. But genres, especially those that are or have been politicised, are contested territories, and attempts to re-define them in a way that appears to strike against the history of the relevant genre will be met with a backlash.

For an extreme example of this, look at 'Rock Against Communism'. It's a musical movement that drew on many of the same influences as punk, and, like punk, served an expressly political purpose. But it explicitly sought to re-orient punk away from Leftist politics and anti-racism, and towards White Power and right-wing working class politics in general. This isn't about what people "can't do", but is it any surprise that R.A.C. is fiercely disowned by punks, and generally treated as a separate movement?

I really, really, do not like that thinking. Music is a universal thing, what you're basically saying is that it should be segregated to specific people and specific areas, which I just flat out don't agree with.

No, that's not what I'm saying. My argument is that musical movements which seek merely to recreate other musical movements without substantially changing their musical/political/aesthetic content are usually ersatz, pointless and boring.

Revivalism is always something that makes me roll my eyes. I mentioned in another thread recently a band that I've come across who claim to be doing 'Oi! revival' or somesuch. The problem here is that the band (like a lot of bands that immerse themselves 'bad faith'-style in the cultural reference points of the things they're 'recreating') are just 'performing' the genre so that people who remember it can nod their heads in recognition. If someone reheated the leftovers of my lunch and served them to me for dinner, I'd nod in recognition, but I wouldn't want to eat it. Revival movements are useless because they're musically boring (unless they substantially change the content of that which they're 'reviving') and politically irrelevant (unless etc). This 'Oi!' band apparently have a song called 'Still Fighting Thatcher'. Fine, but wouldn't it be much better for them to be 'Now Fighting Brown / Blair / Bush / Sarkozy / Samuel Huntington'? Metaphorically speaking.

It reminds me of the recent trend amongst Fucking Student Wankers of refering to all of their fucking nights out as 'raves'; covering their pasty fringed faces in glowsticks and listening to C.S.S. (caricatured more narrowly as 'Nu Rave', I suppose). It's just so fucking tedious and insincere and objectively bears no mark of the experiences of these cunts. It's just ersatz, bad-faith, vaguely ironic for-the-sake-of-it revivalism. In both cases, it is to a large degree the self-consciousness that's irksome.

Yeah, they're Japanese kids who've heard some ska, they like it, there's some good bands (Ska Para who I posted), who gives a fuck. You're basically out there saying these kids shouldn't be playing the music they love, because they don't 'fit' with what the ideals of ska was the best part of 50 year ago.

The bolded part is actually the exact opposite of what I'm saying. The question I asked was:

Does [J-Ska] blend traditional elements of Japanese music with ska itself in a continuation of the dialectical process?

That's what I'm interested in: whether or not J-Ska innovates; whether or not it shows a genuine debt to and appreciation of its roots (and hence deserves association with 'Ska' in the first place) and yet builds on this with musical and aesthetic modifications that reflect the Japanese experience. My argument isn't that they should be attempting to perfectly recreate 'Toots and the Maytals' albums; that's the opposite of what I want. Wouldn't it be fantastic for a Japanese band to communicate the experiences of Nippon youth via such a (supposedly) disparate and un-Japanese genre as ska? I think it would; and I'd love to hear something like that.

What I don't want, however, is a Japanese juke-box that just plays 'Ghost Town' over and over again but in funny accents; or a kind of Japanese pop that offers cursory references to a by-gone musical tradition without apprehending or being sincerely interested in it.

But on the other, it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth seeing upper-middle-class white men sing the blues, as an obvious example, or any of the multitude of white reggae fans with seemingly no cultural connection to the genre other than "dude, Bob Marley smoked weed".

Yes. If cultural movements cite, as a reason for their existence, some kind of 'legacy', then they at least need to understand and appreciate why the things they're influenced by worked. For me, all I ask is that people are genuine. How can, to use examples that are already in play, a middle-class white sing a song about Black struggle for freedom (as found in reggae) with any real sincerity? How strong was Sandi Thom's desire to be 'a punk rocker with flowers in her hair' REALLY? I bet she wouldn't even go to Glastonbury if there was more than a light drizzle.

The "reggae = cannabis" thing is an interesting example of this. Thinking of two recent white bands, one American and one British, who sort-of incorporate reggae into their style (Capdown and 311), both have made much of their pro-legalisation stances. Pro-legalisation is a worthy (if marginal) cause, but implicitly drawing the conclusion that reggae is part of the cultural arm of Black pro-marijuana activities re-inforces the (incredibly right-wing) tendency to see Rastafarianism as essentially a 'front' for drug pushing.

However, music can pretty much only grow through the combination of aspects from different genres, and I think deep-down my problem is with any band that just recycle what's been done before them, rather than trying to add a new aspect to the sound.

Agreed, and the operative word is the one I bolded. Straight-up revivalism, or revivalism that takes the name (but not the virtues) of the music it's influenced by doesn't extend or build upon anything.

Ha, yeah, I agree that Pitchfork certainly has its problems. Most of the reviewers do seem to be of a particular strain of hipster, and you can hazard a good guess at what kind of opinions you'll see expressed about an album before reading the review. Fuck me, did they actually use the 'not our kind of indie' line? That's like the Sun starting a story with "well, of course, we're a bunch of coke-snorting middle-class journo wankers who have trained extensively to fit our stories to the demands and pre-conceptions of the reactionary, white working class, despite knowing much better ourselves, but..."

I do like that a lot of the reviews are at least extensive and well-written (sometimes over-written), though. If you disagree with a review, it tends to be quite easy to pick out why and engage with the thing. Unlike a lot of the popular / print music media which is too reductive to be worth bothering with.

One thing which worries me though -- I kind of assumed that being a bunch of people on the internet, they'd at least have more opportunity to be objective (than, say, the NME). There's a greater degree of seperation between the writers and the 'scene' (I assumed). But apparently they have a quiet policy of 'updating' reviews; apparently 'reconsidering' certain works and offering them new grades. And these 'reappraisals' just so happen to fit in with the way the wind is blowing about the artist/album in question. Hmm.

To be fair, "World Waits" (and the follow up EP) are very much continuing on from where "The Rising Tide" left off, but not particularly in a 'bad' way. His vocal work is great.

Enigk's vocal work is always great, though (except when he does that weird 'jaunty narrator' thing on 'Two Promises'... weird). How about the Fire Theft? I've heard their stuff is quite 'The Rising Tide'-ish, which puts me off. Judging from your sig, you aren't a big Pitchfork fan, but their review of TRT is quite judicious in places (although I disagree with some of the reviewer's take about what SDRE had been 'about' in their first three albums).

Oh, and some stuff I forgot in my original response:

Many, many songs by Keren Ann:

Part of this is due to the level of mystification that occurs when you're listening to an artist who writes her lyrics in a foreign language -- especially French, I suppose. But the simple, so-fucking-easy-I-can-play-it riff on 'On Est Loin', coupled with her fantastically pretty vocals are impossible not to find endearing. 'Peut-Etre' is in much the same vein, and the delivery on "je te dirais, 'je ti'aime'" is one of my favourite musical things ever... just so incredibly tender. There's also the wistful, blustery sax solo on 'By the Cathedral' and the long, meandering mumbles of 'Nolita' ("it's late -- think it's gonna rain / think i'm going to bury you / think i'm going to bury you / or myself"). Some of her stuff falls over the wrong side of twee ('Spanish Song Bird', 'Jardin d'Hiver'), and I suppose you could present her as a dumbed-down Nico (or subtled-up Dido), but I think her stuff manages to be genuinely affecting despite being more simplistic than that weird racist German woman.

'Chance' by Big Country:

Big, sad chorus. Guitars that sound like bagpipes! Touching story. Not a very 'cool' choice, but I'd stick by it.

"In Love This Way" by Descendents:

One of the best songs about unrequited love I've ever heard, and completely out of left field as a jangly pop song from erstwhile comedy pop-punk merchants. Better than equivalent songs by a lot of bands with more 'legit' cred. The Smiths would've been happy to write this song.

Then again, I find 'Up the Junction' to be an emotionally-charged experience, so what the fuck do I know? Actually, I'll say a bit more about this. What's great about 'Up the Junction' is the way that it mostly remains just a 'nice song', but the "the devil came and took me / from bar to street to bookie" line hints at a slightly 'darker' element behind the story, and then the song quickly ends. It reminds me of a conversation between your elders about some slightly odd event in the dark depths of the family history; the moment at which someone makes an illusion that's a bit too literal, and everyone goes quiet.

I don't mind 'Tearing in My Heart' at all: really, on 'The Rising Tide', I'll take what I can get. It just felt a bit 'put on' to me: here's 'the emotional song' (it's about Dan Hoerner's dead sister don'tcherknow!), to go with 'the political song' ('Snibe'), 'the heavy song' (Killed by an Angel) and 'the natural imagery song' ('Rain Song'). Not bad, or anything, I just prefer the moments of pure emotion in SDRE songs that sound underplayed or aren't lingered over -- the drone of longing that opens 'Theo B' ("what a dream, you still loved me...") or the complete 'calm... storm' dynamic at work in 'Rodeo Jones'.

Thanks a lot for the Enigk solo recommendation, though, I'll check it out when I get five minutes. I've always been unsure about whether or not to dip into his post-SDRE stuff. I was worried it might all continue in the vein of TRT, or otherwise just be full of caterwauling about that goddamned God.

Also, Frank Turner - Long Live The Queen

It's the lyrics. They get me every fucking time.

My God. That may be the worst song I've ever heard. Good Lord, Frank. Where did it all go wrong? BAH-BAH-BAHBAHBAH This girl's dying of cancer / No longer anymore will she be a dancer / BAH-BAH-BAHBAHBAH I used to front Million Dead / now I piss about doing bollocks like this instead.

Reminds me of a Chris Morris parody, but god knows what of.

Some suggestions off the top of my head:

'Levi Stubbs Tears' by Billy Bragg.

Incredibly touching lyrics, haunting saxophone bit in the outro. The delivery on the "when the world falls apart / some things stay in place" bit is spine-tingly when heard live (and pretty excellent on record too). Sad story. Presumably if Frank had written it, the lyrics would go "Fucking hell, this bloke killed his wife / And that was the end of her cunting life" and none of it would scan properly.

'Grendel' by Sunny Day Real Estate.

Jeremy Enigk's voice is perfect for songs like these, and SDRE manage the 'quiet/loud/quiet' thing without it seeming cheap. "I WAAAANTED TO BEEEE THEEEEEEEEM"... he just sounds so believably wrought. The other SDRE songs that qualify here are 'The Prophet' for its slow but constant build, weird (if slightly hammy) vocal sample, and the fantastic lyrics/vocal delivery at the end and 'Seven', which for me just IS 2 a.m. walks around the city in winter.

'The Other Side of Mt. Heart Attack' by Liars.

Incredibly fragile and precious. It's like a sonic child, an effect which is helped by the simplicitly of the lyrics.

EDIT: Really, though, I don't think any song leaves me 'dumbfounded': that implies a transcendental / ineffable reaction. Even when I respond to a song on an emotional level, I know why that's happening.

Oh, right. I didn't realise that about the Crucifucks... I just heard them and presumed they were West Coast; never actually did my research. Oops.

And, yeah, Darby Crash's vocals are tremendous, and his lyrics should probably get more credit. 'The Other Newest One' is one of the best songs about sex I've ever heard, and he's a clear cut above yer standard Hardcore frontman.

Don't think VP mentioned them, but The Germs are quite good in places. Their one studio full-length 'GI' is mostly excellent; the rest of their discography is mostly dreck. They capture the shambolicness of Punk better than most other well-known Hardcore stuff, and have the advantage of being a West Coast band whose vocalist at no time slipped into just doing Jello Biafra impressions (cf TSOL, the Crucifucks).

Despite that, TSOL are worth checking out. Just about. I'm not massively familiar with them, but my favourite songs of theirs are 'Abolish Government' and 'Fuck You, Tough Guy', which both feature really nice riffs. Couldn't recommend an album, though.

If you're into the "tee-hee, look out how OFFENSIVE we're being" strain of early Hardcore, then you could check out Angry Samoans. No matter how hard their ironic Nazism shtick might make me roll my eyes, I can't completely hate a band with an album called 'The 90s Suck and So Do You'.

There's a pretty good compilation of DC Hardcore called 'Flex Your Head', which features some bands already mentioned (Minor Threat, DC Youth Brigade, Government Issue) as well as some not (Artificial Peace, State of Alert, Untouchables). There are also a few tracks from MacKaye's first band, Teen Idles.

As far as current day stuff goes, the British scene in that area seems to consist of mostly Post-Hardcore -- longer songs, more obvious indie and 'rock' influences. I'd still recommend Million Dead (the best British political band of the 00s) though, for sure. You might want to check out some bands from Household Name Records which is the seat of the London hardcore/skacore/etc scene. No idea what's going on in North America, other than Propaghandi.

EDIT: Actually, looks like most of the old HHN bands that I'm familiar with have moved on or died. So I'm not sure about that. They also seem to have signed some sort of bad-faith Oi! revival band. With a song called 'Still Fighting Thatcher'. Did original Oi! bands have songs called stuff like 'Fighting Thatcher' (or feel the need to tell everyone they were an Oi! band every five minutes)? I'd guess probably not.

don't worry, his thetans will be reborn soon

speedin back to life like a jett

EDIT:- The 'players as managers' thing is kind of interesting. I tend to think that the two jobs involve almost completely different skillsets:

I think you can spot potential managers when they're playing, Rafa Benitez has spoken before about the possibilities of Xabi Alonso and Jamie Carragher becoming managers. They're not flashy or quick players, but their reading of the game is excellent, which I think would be the same for most current managers who used to be players.

I think there's a degree of that: managers can probably spot which of their players have good tactical nous and leadership ability whilst they're stull players. But stilll, you often hear ex-players get tipped as 'the sort who'd succeed in management' who then completely fail. (Sorry I can't provide some good examples of this, I'm in a bit of a rush. I'll see what I can do later.) And it's a bit early to class Keane, Adams, Coleman and Southgate as sucessful mnagaers yet. Adams has been fairly poor in the two jobs he's had so far (very small sample), and the other three have had ups and downs. You only need to look at Stuart Pearce to see how quickly a popular ex-player can go from managerial flavour of the month to... well, Pearce has a good record as U-21 manager, but it's not really comparable with club management.

Jack Charlton is one I was going to mention, although Rijkaard completely slipped my mind. I've been looking at England's most capped players, and of players with 50 or more caps, it's conceivable that Glenn Hoddle might be the best manager. Haven't looked properly yet, though.

It's a fair point about Ferguson, but it is worth keeping in mind the different environment in which he played. The average team in the '64-'65 Scottish First Division (i.e. SPL equivalent) scored 1.78 goals per game. Last season in the SPL, the average team scored only 1.45 goals per game -- a significant difference over the course of a season.

I doubt there's ever been a time that 31 goals has been a poor (or even average) return for a striker in that league, but you have to make a bit of adjustment for time periods -- his season in '65 isn't equivalent to a 31 goal performance this year, for instance. And it's interesting to note that Ferguson's 31 league goals that year didn't make him the outright top scorer. More broadly, he was never capped by Scotland, for what that's worth. Though, obviously, the latter point can't all be laid at his door: the quality of competition comes into that to a large extent.

He probably was considerably better than mediocre, though. Apparently, the fee Rangers paid for him to St. Johnstone was a record between Scottish clubs at the time. Players fail to live up to transfer fees all the time, of course -- but it's indicative of how he was regarded by contemporaries, and that has to count for something when there's so little to go on.

Just out of interest...

Of the 22 players who were in the '96 squad, still playing professionally are Gary Neville, Sol Campbell, Phil Neville, Robbie Fowler and (nominally -- hasn't made an appearance this season) Ian Walker.

From the squad who went to France '98, the players still active are Campbell, Gary Neville, David Beckham, Paul Scholes, Michael Owen and Rio Ferdinand.

It's surprising to me that Ferdinand was an England international as long ago as '98. And I would never have been able to name Steve Howey as the 22nd man in that Euro '96 squad (the other vaguely odd-looking choice is Steve Stone, but I remember his involvement quite clearly for some reason).

EDIT:- The 'players as managers' thing is kind of interesting. I tend to think that the two jobs involve almost completely different skillsets: the main problem for a non-player going into management would, initially at least, be the difficulty in 'earning respect' of his players and fellow staff more than anything, I think.

Great players who became great managers? The first one that comes to mind for me is Franz Beckenbauer. Two World Cup Final appearances as a manager, including one win. A French title, a Bundesliga and a UEFA Cup. Somewhat short managerial career (12 years; much of it coming sparsely as a national team manager), but success everywhere he went. I don't think his ability as a player is much in doubt, but still: 103 caps for Germany; twice European Footballer of the Year (as a sweeper, no less); captain of a World Cup winning side etc etc.

Agnostic Front -- 62.

Basically, this is just the 'Raw Unleashed' double-CD which contains... a lot of stuff. To be honest, I'm not hugely knowledgeable about the band, so I couldn't guess at where the material is from. Sounds to me like a lot of outtakes / rough cuts, but that might just be indicative of their general production standards. Possibly a compilation of early releases.

At the Drive-in -- 53.

Almost complete works. All three full-lengths ('Acrobatic Tenement', 'In Casino Out', 'Relationship of Command') and three of their four EPs ('Alfaro Vive Carajo' 'El Gran Gorgo', 'Vaya'). The first E.P., 'Hell Paso', is very hard to track down from what I understand.

Big Black -- 48.

Okay, doesn't quite reach the '50' benchmark, but I'm including it because it's basically their complete works. The two full-lengths ('Atomizer' and 'Songs About Fucking'), all the EPs ('Lungs', 'Bulldozer', 'Racer X', 'Headache'), the 'He's a Whore' single and a live version of 'Kerosene' (possibly from 'Sound of Impact', not sure). All I'm missing are the two live albums and a few measly singles.

Billy Bragg -- 66.

This covers all of the early releases ('Life's a Riot with Spy vs. Spy', 'Brewing up with Billy Bragg', 'Talking with the Taxman About Poetry', 'Workers Playtime', 'The Internationale'), substantial amounts of the two albums after that ('Don't Try This at Home' and 'William Bloke') and a few tracks from 'England, Half English'. These are the original versions of the albums, though, mind: none of yer fancy 2006 re-issues with bonus tracks, studio outtakes, alternate versions and whatnot.

Black Flag -- 62.

Including the compilation of early stuff 'The First Four Years', the first two full-length studio albums 'Damaged' and 'My War', the final studio album 'In My Head' about half of the earlystuff compilation 'Everything Went Black', and a few other bits and pieces.

Buzzocks -- 58.

This might not actually make 50 once I take out tracks I've double-counted, but ne'mind. Covers the first and third albums ('Another Music in a Different Kitchen' and 'A Different Kind of Tension'), the very handy compilation of seven inches 'Singles Going Steady', and the rather more treading-old-ground singles compilation 'Many Parts'.

The Clash -- 141.

Includes all the albums that aren't 'Cut the Crap', basically. Also comprises the 'London Calling' re-issue with a second CD of rareties. This figure would increase if I made allowance for the fact that I also own (via my Dad) 'Combat Rock' and 'The Clash' on CASSETTE TAPE!

The Constantines -- 42.

Not quite 50, but notable for the fact that I've never listened to it, and don't really know who the Constantines are. This means nothing to me, but included are the first three studio albums and the first two E.P.s.

The Damned -- 155.

Not even much of a Damned fan, really. This includes the first six studio albums ('Damned, Damned, Damned', 'Music for Pleasure', 'Machine Gun Etiquette', 'The Black Album', 'Strawberries' and 'Phantasmagoria') and 'Grave Disorder' (the ninth). A live album called 'Not the Captain's Birthday Party', a rarities collection, what I assume are two compilations ('The Light at the End of the Tunnel' and 'Final Damnation') and a couple of BBC sessions. Does the idea of the Damned having a 'ninth studio album' make anyone else feel slightly queasy, incidentally?

Dead Kennedys -- 107.

Ah, this is more like it. Contains all four studio albums ('Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables', 'Plastic Surgery Disasters', 'Frankenchrist', 'Bedtime for Democracy'), the E.P. ('In God We Trust, Inc.'), the early stuff / rarities compilation 'Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death', the single of 'Holiday in Cambodia' and the live album 'Mutiny on the Bay'. I'm sure I used to have the other live album ('Skateboard Party'), but I think I deleted it due to its appaling sound quality in an effort to conserve hard drive space (probably should've just deleted some 'Damned' albums...).

Descendents -- 116.

This contains the pre-Milo E.P. 'Fat', all of the studio albums ('Milo Goes to College', 'I Don't Want to Grow Up', 'Enjoy!', 'All', 'Everything Sucks', 'Cool to be You'), the live album 'Liveage', the late E.P. ''Merican', and a couple of odd songs; one from the rarities compilation 'Somery' and one from the other live album, 'Hallraker'.

DEVO -- 263.

Right. This contains all of the studio albums ('Q: Are We Not Men? A: We are Devo!', 'Duty Now for the Future', 'Freedom of Choice', 'New Traditionalists', 'Oh No! It's Devo!', 'Shout', 'Total Devo', 'Smooth Noodle Maps'); the singles for 'Baby Doll', 'Post Postmodern Man' and 'Disco Dancer'; three live albums (the 00s re-issue of 'DEVO-LIVE', 'Devo Live: The Mongoloid Years', 'Now it Can be Told: Devo Live at the Palace'); the ridiculous instrumentals collection ('EZ Listening Disc'); and the two gargantuan collections of demos, outtakes and rarities ('Hardcore Devo: Vols. 1 &2' from the early years, 'Recombo DNA' from the major labels era).

The Fall -- 314.

Much of this consists of the massive, 97-track collection of Peel Sessions, and the two-disc set of early material 'Psykick Dance Hall'. Still, my collection of studio full-lengths has grown steadily to include 'Live at the Witch Trials', 'Grotesque After the Gramme', 'Perverted by Language', 'The Wonderful and Frightening World of the Fall', 'This Nation's Saving Grace', 'Bend Sinister', 'The Frenz Experiment', 'I am Kurious Oranj', 'The Light User Syndrome', 'Fall Heads Roll', 'Reformation Post TLC' and 'Imperial Wax Solvent'.

Fugazi -- 91.

Includes all of the studio albums ('Repeater', 'Steady Diet of Nothing', 'In on the Kill Taker', 'Red Medicene' and 'The Argument'), the collection of early E.P.s '13 Songs', the later E.P. '3 Songs' and some odds and ends from the 'Instrument' soundtrack and the 'Furniture + 2' E.P.

Gang of Four -- 53.

Including the first three studio albums ('Entertainment!', 'Solid Gold' and 'Songs of the Free'), the 'Another Day, Another Dollar' E.P., the 'cashing in on our legacy rather than letting Bloc Party do it' collection 'Return the Gift', and a few songs from the wilderness albums.

Half Man, Half Biscuit -- 197.

All of the studio albums, except for the newest one ('Back in the DHSS', 'ACD/Back Again in the DHSS', 'MacIntyre, Treadmoor and Davitt', 'This Leaden Pall', 'Some Call it Godcore', 'Voyage to the Bottom of the Road', 'Four Lads Who Shook the Wirral', 'Look Dad, No Tunes', 'Trouble Over Bridgewater', 'Cammell Laird Social Club', 'Achtung Bono'); various E.P.s ('Dickie Davies' Eyes', 'The Trumpton Riots', 'Let's Not', 'No Regrets', 'Eno Collaboration', 'Editor's Recommendation', 'Saucy Haulage Ballads') and a massive rarities/sessions compilation.

Husker Du -- 83.

All the full-lengths except for the debut ('Zen Arcade', 'New Day Rising', 'Flip Your Wig', 'Candy Apple Grey', 'Warehouse: Songs and Stories') and a live version of the Greg Norton-penned 'Everytime'. For some reason.

The Jam -- 62.

Three studio albums ('In the City', 'Setting Sons', 'Sound Affects'); the 'best-of-by-any-other-name' 'The Sound of the Jam', and a few assorted kerlassic tracks.

Johnny Foreigner -- 42.

Don't quite make the cut, but this is pretty much every song they've recorded so far. The sixteen-track 'demos' collection 'I Like You Mostly Late as Never', two songs that pre-date that, the 'Arcs Across the City E.P.', a couple of songs that got lost in the shuffle, a b-side, and the debut full-length ('Waited up 'til it was Light'). Support yer local scene and that.

Joy Division -- 117.

Hard to disentangle because so much of their stuff has been released in different forms. I'm probably double, triple and quadruple counting tracks, here, but it still amounts to a lot. This covers the two studio albums ('Unknown Pleasures' and 'Closer'), various compilations ('Still', 'Substance', 'Warsaw'), sessions (Peel sessions and 'The Complete BBC Recordings'), an EP ('The Ideal for Living), a single ('Atmosphere') and various live recordings. I don't really like Joy Division very much, honestly.

Keren Ann -- 55.

All of the studio albums, basically ('La Biographie de Luka Phillipsen', 'La Disparition', 'Not Going Anywhere', 'Nolita' and 'Keren Ann').

Less Than Jake -- 85.

The first four studio albums ('Pezcore', 'Losing Streak', 'Hello Rockview', 'Borders and Boundaries') and the compilation of early stuff 'Losers, Kings and Things We Don't Understand'. Yes, I like Less Than Jake. I will defend them if asked.

Million Dead -- 51.

Includes both studio albums ('A Song to Ruin', 'Harmony No Harmony'), a fuckload of early tracks, a couple of live recordings, some sessions, the 'I Gave My Eyes to Stevie Wonder' single, the 'Living the Dream' single, studio outtakes, unfinished songs. All kinds of stuff...

Minutemen -- 88.

The 45-track opus 'Double Nickels on the Dime' gets me off to a good start, and I also have two other studio full-lengths ('The Punch-Line' and 'Three Way Tie for Last'), as well as odds and ends from other albums and compilations.

My Bloody Valentine -- 57.

Includes the two full-lengths ('Isn't Anything' and 'Loveless'), and all but the first two E.P.s ('The New Record...', 'Sunny Sundae Smile', 'Strawberry Wine', 'Ecastacy', 'You Made Me Realise', 'Feed Me With Your Kiss', 'Glider', 'Tremolo'). Most of those are the re-issues with extra tracks, but my version of 'Feed Me With Your Kiss' is just the A-side/B-side single; no gubbins.

Nirvana -- 100.

The three studio full-lengths ('Bleach', 'Nevermind', 'In Utero), 'Unplugged', the rarities compilation 'Insecticide' and singles for 'Smells Like Teen Spirit', 'Come as You Are', 'Lithium', 'All Apologies' / 'Rape Me' and 'In Bloom'.

Pixies -- 65.

The 'Come on Pilgrim' E.P. and all of the studio full-lengths ('Surfer Rosa', 'Doolittle', 'Bossanova', 'Trompe le Monde').

The Pretty Things -- 99.

Includes a 54-track double CD of BBC sessions; their kerlassic rock opera 'S.F. Sorrow'; the 're-imagined' 80s version of the same ('Ressurection'); and a handful of good tracks from their later period.

Sham 69 -- 57.

Three-disc, 48-track 'Complete Collection', plus bits and pieces.

The Smiths -- 62.

All four studio full-lengths ('The Smiths', 'Meat is Murder', 'The Queen is Dead', 'Strangeways, Here We Come'), plus the 'Hatful of Hollow' compilation and other odds and ends.

Sunny Day Real Estate -- 52.

The four studio albums ('Diary', 'Sunny Day Real Estate', 'How it Feels to be Something on' and 'The Rising Tide') and the live album ('Live'). Have a few b-sides to track down.

The Velvet Underground -- 76.

All five studio albums ('The Velvet Underground & Nico', 'White Light / White Heat', 'The Velvet Underground', 'Loaded', 'Squeeze') and the '1969: The Velvet Underground Live' album.

The Wonderstuff -- 75.

The early studio albums ('The Eight Legged Groove Machine', 'Hup!', 'Never Loved Elvis' and 'Construction for the Modern Idiot'), the 'Hot Love Now!' E.P., and the 'Live in Manchester' album.

XTC -- 62.

Four seemingly-collected-at-random LPs ('Drums and Wires', 'The English Settlement', 'Skylarking', 'Drums and Wires') and a couple more odd tracks.

I don't like anything I couldn't defend. Because otherwise... why would I like it?

I watched the J-Ska video. The problem is that it all just feels so ersatz. I mean, ska originally arose as a Caribbeanisation of American jazz: it has a distinct history and character of its own despite drawing on at least two obvious sets of influences. Is J-Ska like that? Does it blend traditional elements of Japanese music with ska itself in a continuation of the dialectical process? Or is it just a bunch of Japanese kids who have heard some Specials LPs?

I hope you didn't misunderstand me. The Clash are my favourite group of all time and Rudi is just a spectacular song. London Calling as an album is great but Rudi is just the greatest thing there is.

No, no, sorry, CSAMH, should've made myself clearer. It was just that all the Clash praise in this thread encouraged me to listen to LC again, and I really enjoyed it. Which got me thinking about criticisms of the Clash I've heard in the past, and the fact that those criticisms are exceptionally weak and rubbish. It was a tangential point rather than a direct response to stuff in the thread.

Can you only raise 'taxes' by 1%? No scope for re-distribution of wealth via radically tiered taxation? WHAT A LIMITED DISCOURSE!!!!

EDIT: Oh, and AD, did Switzerland not bother with anything so formal as an election, then? Can you literally just get 'ousted'?

When I made the Art History comparison, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek... I don't imagine you all sitting around with massive hard-ons sharing pictures of displaced Vietnamese refugees or anything like that.

I know what you're saying about the entwined nature of political and military history, but I do think it's possible to tread the line. I'd like to think that the module I'm currently studying has given me a good understanding of the social, cultural, economic and political issues surrounding the Spanish Civil War, without necessarily needing to show me where the Xs and Os lined up during the Ebro offensive. Certainly, I wouldn't call my understanding of the topic 'hollow', anyway. Although there's always the possibility I'm overestimating myself. EDIT: In short, I suppose the line is one between wars as cultural events and wars as military events. Not that the latter isn't important to study; but it's a different discipline, to a large extent.

EDIT EDIT: Then again, I'm usually in favor of interdisciplinary History, and most attempts at demarcation seem like stuffy harumphing at bottom. Everyone should do what they like, and hopefully the pile we get at the end will serve well enough as the sum of human knowledge.

Oh wait, that was the Enlightenment, wasn't it? And look how that turned out...

Sorry, what were we talking about, again? 'Peep Show', wasn't it?

Oh, right, I see.

What does interest you about military elements of history, incidentally? Don't worry, I'm not going to contort any response you give into evidence that you ACTUALLY ARE David Irving. It's just that I'm a History student, am interested in a lot of 20th century political history, but generally stop reading once the wars start because I just don't find it interesting. Is it an appreciation of tactics thing? Like, you begin to appreciate a good counteroffensive in the same way an Art History student would nod approvingly at Picasso's 'Guernica' (or something)? That I could sort of understand.

I've never got into HoI, not just because of my disinterest in military aspects of history, but because I have fuck all patience. And because I always think 'cor! I wonder what it was like to be Luxembourg in WW2!' and just get devoured once 1939 rolls around. I should really sit down and do all the tutorials and then start a proper game as a major power.

Oh, man, I've been reading French diplomatic communiques all day and would really love a good political sim right now. Time to fire up 'Conflict: Middle East', I reckon.

EDIT: (Replied before your edit).

I can't really see why ideology and/or general morality links in with it, to be honest. Should I never, ever, ever play as the Empire in a Star Wars game because they're bastards? Am I really saying that I am a personal fan of what they represent just because I've picked the antagonist's role? In a game, the fact that the chosen side/country were utter bastards IRL hardly matters when what you're really doing is being given the freedom to take a different side in a strategic scenario. If we were to dress it up in fiction like "No...this isn't Soviet Russia v Nazi Germany v Great Britain...it's, um, Falseland v Magicia v Narnia" would be horribly patronising; while alternatively avoiding historical scenarios altogether ala "No! You may not play this game for the strategic landscape is similar to this actual event in some ways!" would be even worse.

I don't think it's immoral to play as a particular side in any game: obviously things that people do in games can never have any sort of effect on anything in the real world. I'm also not saying that playing as, say, the Nazis suggests that someone is a 'personal fan' of Nazism. There are lots of reasons why someone might choose to play as the Nazis. As I've said, some people might just have a strong interest in counter-factual history.

But I do think there is an undercurrent of getting a 'giddy thrill' from playing as the Nazis for some people. The very neutralization of actions that occurs when playing a game allows people to do things that they wouldn't normally endorse. I think that, for a certain type of person with an interest in military history, there is a 'verboten' element to playing as the Nazis from which they gain excitement. Fascism as an ideology is extremely alluring aesthetically, and that becomes particularly acute when backed up by the economic and military resources possessed by a nation like Germany. Living out dreams of complete control; continental hegemony; the 'simplification' of politics via the criminalization of opposition; reification of a purified ideology and so on has obvious attraction in a video game world. But it doesn't hold attraction for everyone, and it makes me wonder about people who enjoy that element of HoI. I'm not suggesting that they're all closet Nazis who would take up arms in a Nick Griffin-sponsored coup; it just an interesting and slightly ugly example of their 'Will to Power', I suppose. And the potential applications for that in the real world (if any) are intriguing to me.

That last paragraph was a horrible mess. I need more time to think about this, really, but bollocks to it. Basically, I'm suspicious about the fetishisation / kitschification / ironic appropriation of Nazist / Fascist ephemera. Not because I think that people who engage in that sort of thing are necessarily politically unsound (though they might be); more because it's just an ugly sort of quality. (Ugh... still not very well stated). And I don't think that everyone playing HoI as Hitler's Germany is guilty of that fetishisation.

I wouldn't prefer games to use fake histories or scenarios, for the record.

(I always associate an interest in military history with Young Conservatives and/or slavering Nazi fetishists),

:@

...Sorry, couldn't let that pass. >_>

Sorry, Stoke, not sure what you mean. That it's an inaccurate generalisation? I'm sure that's true; it's just an association that I make that extrapolates from a few bad experiences.

Though, I do often think there's more to be read into the way people play stuff like 'Hearts of Iron' than is self-evident. Feeling giddy at the prospect of leading the Wehrmacht to victory might not be evidence of actual latent rightism, but I think it at least signifies strains of slightly worrying machismo in a lot of cases. Obviously all generalisations fall down, and I know that some people are just interested in grand-scale counterfactuals or (for some reason I will never understand) hold a genuine and benign interest in... I dunno... what gauge of MP5s the Russians used at Stalingrad. (I fully expect that last sentence to be complete nonsense).

EDIT: Dunno how many people will appreciate this reference, but I'm always reminded when discussing this of that 'Peep Show' episode (the 'my Nazi mate' one). Mark enjoys playing as Hitler's Germany in war games on the PC, but then starts to feel a bit uncomfortable at the prospect of a 'real life' WW2 recreation in which he plays a Stormtrooper. But they're both, essentially, just different sorts of performance: one private; one public.

I've meandered off the point somewhat now, but oh well...

Why do so many musos dismiss the Clash? I have a feeling that it's partly a result of them supposedly being 'unmelodic' (which might be true of the first album, but certainly doesn't apply to 'London Calling' or 'Sandinista!').

I think a lot of it is an image thing. They're seen as being part of that self-consciously macho/'hard' strain of '77 punk without having the credentials to back it up (Strummer being a doctor's son from Surrey and so on) but, again, they moved away from that presentation of themselves by the second album and certainly by the third. And can anyone be blamed for getting swept up by the aesthetics that went along with punk?

I've also heard them get criticised for being too politically 'naive', or as blithely endorsing political violence ('sten guns over Knightsbridge' and what not). But songs like 'Tommy Gun' explicitly moved them away from that stance, and a lot of the political songs on 'London Calling' are just standard Leftist fare ('Clampdown', 'Spanish Bombs') and do betray more maturity. And just because an idea is 'naive', that doesn't mean it's invalid or not worth airing.

How can anyone not love 'London Calling' (the album), at least? It has fantastic pop songs like 'Train in Vain' and 'Spanish Bombs', loads of excellent 'post-punk'-type songs that demonstrate just an excellent adeptness for songwriting ('Lost in the Supermarket', 'London Calling', 'Hateful', 'The Card Cheat'), nice little curios like 'Koka Kola' and probably the best attempt to marry punk and reggae that was ever recorded by an English punk band ('Revolution Rock').

MM reminded me of 'When I Come Around', which I think is the only Green Day song I really like. It's pretty much just a perfect guitar-pop track. I quite like 'Basket Case', but I think the annoying-as-hell 'am I just stoooooooooooooned?' lyric/vocal delivery disqualify it.

Haha, my first thought upon seeing this thread title was of 'Lounge Act', which is my favourite song off 'Nevermind' too. It's just a perfect, short little blast that perfectly encapsulates the sound of the album as a whole. And I much prefer Cobain's screamed vocals (which are in full effect here, especially for the last chorus) to his meandering introspections on songs like 'Lithium'. The lyrics are good (although I do like Nirvana lyrics generally; which is often divisive). I think I'm generally a sucker for the 'quiet/LOUD/quiet' style of songwriting of which 'Lounge Act' is a pretty good example. The intro riff is good as well -- not 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' or 'Come as You are' good, obviously -- but it doesn't need to be. I think 'Lounge Act' just works perfectly for what it is, and has none of the stadium-ish excesses of 'Smells...' or lyrical annoyances and dead-weight patches that feature in 'Come as You are' (the two songs generally seen, along with 'Lithium', as the 'class' of the album).

From 'London Calling', I much prefer 'Spanish Bombs' to the title track. Then again, there are quite a few better songs than LC on the album ('Hateful', 'Jimmy Jazz', 'Rudie Can't Fail'). I think 'Spanish Bombs' is the best, though, and is one of the songs that belies the 'The Clash had no sense of melody' fallacy. It's just a really nice little song that could work as an acoustic folk number. The two guitar tracks work well together, the vocal melody is really excellent (particularly during the chorus), the lyrics are nice. Just an exceptionally lovely song.

I'm struggling now because there aren't many 'classic' bands that I listen to much, really. I'd take 'Several Girls Galore' over a lot of the stuff on 'Isn't Anything', and that song doesn't usually get live airings these days. MBV aren't really a band who trade on 'classic' songs, though. If they're known for any individual track, it might be 'You Made Me Realise', and I could argue that 'Drive it all Over Me' or 'Thorn' are better from that EP. But, really, they're too stylistically different to bother making the comparison. 'YMMR' is the messy, heavy feedback-y track; 'Drive it...' is Bilinda being all ethereal and gorgeous; 'Thorn' is a fairly orthodox 'Indie' track done exceptionally well. The confluence of those three songs is what makes the E.P. great.

Kind of a minor one, but I'd take 'Books About UFOs' easily over any of the 'famous' (relatively speaking) songs from 'New Day Rising' (I'm thinking mostly of the title track and '59 Times the Pain'). I prefer Hart's song-writing to Mould's generally, and the awesome little piano counter-melody on 'Books' gives it an almost 60s garage sort of feel, which is remarkable considering they were still pretty much in their 'melodic hardcore' phase at that point. Hart is a much better vocalist than Mould too, which helps.

I'd like to argue that 'Hangin' Round' is the best song from 'Transformer' but... it isn't, really.

Oooh, that reminds me, though -- 'Chelsea Girls', the title track from the Nico album (sort of), and the song that takes its name from an Andy Warhol film, is the worst song on that album. The lyrics are dreadful, it has a horrible faux-tragedic tone that involves Nico doing some really hammy vocals. The melody isn't memorable. It's the only song I skip when listening to the album.

Minor notes: 'The Other Side of Mount Heart Attack' is beautiful, and possibly the best song from 'Drum is not Dead', and never got a single release. And 'Wannabe Gangster' is the BEST SONG Wheatus ever did, and was only released as the third single and in a heavily edited form compared to the album version. Both of those examples are probably cases where songs get singled out as good, but too divergent from a band's overall style to be worth 'pushing'. (That's the only time you'll hear someone make an argument using Liars and Wheatus as the two supporting examples.)

Fuckshit, do you have Running With Scissors? There's less uninspired parody and more original composition stuff on there. I think. I only have two albums, the other being Poodle Hat, so...

Not that Weird Al is the second coming of Stephen Lynch or anything (well, er... the first coming, or something, I dunno). But he has his moments. Hardware Store, though? Isn't that just essentially a list of things in a hardware store, when it comes down to it?

Ah, cheers for the tip. I'll check the album out. I'm not a huge Yankovic fan (I dismissed him due to shit like 'White and Nerdy', 'Eat it', 'My Bologna' and the 'Onion' parody 'Livin' La Vida Mocha' that just seemed too accurate for me to take him seriously again), so I'm no expert.

'Hardware Store' is SO MUCH MORE than a list of things in a hardware store. The list is just incredible for how well delivered it is. It's the kind of thing that seems really obvious and basic, but thinking about it, I don't think I could write something like that myself. The rest of the lyrics are pretty good for Yankovic too (the first verse mostly), and the bass line is nice. I like the way that machinery and tools and... stuff... are incorporated as percussion without it feeling gimmicky. And there's some nice vocal harmony work in there too. It's a pretty simple song in a lot of ways (rhythm section is all pretty basic), there are just a load of nice touches.

Oh, and to add another one to the thread generally -- Keane, 'This is the Last Time'. Yeah, I know: ditchwater-dull radio-friendly Dadrock. But it sounds like something Sunny Day Real Estate might've written if they'd gone a bit pop and tried to break into the mainstream. It'd be really good if Tim Whatshisface could sing with a bit more balls and not be so Generic FM.

There's also

EDIT: I have a mate in a band in Nottingham, and they have one song that sounds basically just like a Kooks B-side or something; but I get it in my head for long periods. Fuck. All the rest of their stuff is just awful. This actually converges with another potential thread: "Songs That You Recognise Have Massive, Gaping Flaws, Yet You Find Yourself Struggling to Dislike."