KrisClassic

I think we should factor in the crowd size. The crowds that cult level promotions bring in-game is what Chikara, CZW, PWG, and DG-USA are bringing in, so they should be at cult level. -Raise Mike Sparks' talent to 71. -Lower Brett Lauderdale's talent to 52 and behavior to 63. -Lower Brandon Tolle's behavior to 73. -Raise Matt Bennett's talent to 75 and age to 28. -Lower Spanky 1-2-3's talent to 52. -Lower Jesse Owen's talent to 50. -Raise Rob Lick's age to 30. Lower his wages to 5,000. -Add Matt Deuerlein to the game: -Add Jared Artman to the game:

Because by and large they run out of the mid Atlantic area and aren't super well known. That's pretty spot on for a regional promotion. I definitely disagree with you there. CZW is one of the most well known indies in the company. (Even, if not a small bit behind Chikara). How often do they run outside of the tri-state/Delaware area? I still don't see a reason why they would be cult at the current time. They are known but I would not put them in the same breath when it comes to size and recognition as PWG, CHIKARA, DG-USA and ROH. Plus the CZW shows internationally were only two Italian shows OR a special attraction on another promotion like with Big Japan in Japan and I think wXw in Germany. The Big Japan and Italian shows were back when Zandig ran CZW in 2004 the latest. Is eight years ago is still REALLY relevant? They ran in the Mid-West 3-4 times this year, I believe. But CZW is drawing the same numbers crowd-wise as Chikara (and is just as well known), why should they not be cult?

I don't see why CZW should be lowered to regional. They frequently run in PA, NJ, DE, IN, OH, and have ran places such as MA, NC, Japan, Mexico, and Ireland in the past.

-After New Jack's rant on Tammy Sytch, change their relationship from dislike to hate. Change his relationship with Missy Hyatt to a dislike. -Raise Shockwave the Robot's brawl to 41, speed to 70, technical to 63, selling to 64, and charisma to 82. Tick Speaks to yes. -Raise Osamu Namiguchi's brawl to 48, overness to 19, and charisma to 51. -Raise Damien Sandow's brawl to 75. -Raise Road Warrior Animal's speed to 9.

It has nothing to do with what I "mark" for, it's about how the fans react to them. Game mechanics say if X person is getting a main event response and in a main event position, they should have Y overness. It's simple as.

Well said. The idea that WWE and its fans are the standard for overness levels takes away from when you play other companies. -Raise Mark Krieger's brawl to 62, stiffness to 43, overness to 13, and charisma to 73. Lower his speed to 53.

Responses in bold. Here is my points: Besides the EVOLVE and now few ROH shots Finlay has done, is he that over in his appearances? To me he has been a special attraction for both promotions thus far. Special attraction, yes, but still he is a big deal when used as one. Low Ki doesn't have the same buzz he did before he went to TNA in 2006 and more or less wrestles in Japan. I'll take that as valid. He is still being mega-pushed by DG-USA. I'd say 71 at least. The World's Greatest Tag Team have not really been over together since they broke up in 2007 for Benjamin's first jump to ECW. They are now in ROH. Rhino's star has cooled since his WWE run and had a slight resurgence with TNA but not enough to be where he currently is (and on-par with Sean Waltman) I'd at least put him on par with Davey Richards. Is Generico really on the same level with midcarders in WWE? No, but neither is Davey Richards. He is one of the most over guys on the indies now and should be in the early 70s. Quacks is based on CHIKARA alone which is the only promotion where he is a borderline main eventer. I do not see him that high. Borderline? He is one of the biggest stars in Chikara. If we base it on Chikara alone he deserves 67, which would put him in the main event slot (which he is, realistically). And since he is unsackable with Chikara, I think we should base his overness entirely on that. Callihan is a draw in CZW but how is he that much more than Drake Younger and AR Fox who are his greatest rivals? Easily, yes. Johnny Gargano is over but why wouldn't Chuck Taylor be more over than he would? Chuck Taylor has been around longer but Taylor has more momentum behind him, he is consisently being used in a bigger capacity. DJ Hyde I lowered based on who his contemporaries at 52 were. I'd leave DJ as is, raise Anthony Nese up to 58, Gary Wolfe up to 56, Jazz (with her recent resurgence on the indy scene in a high profile way) up to 55, and Teddy Hart up to 56. Not to be rude, but this sounds like it is coming from someone who doesn't properly understand or appreciate death match wrestling (and understandably so, given its reputation). Sure, sometimes it is about hitting guys over and over again with weapons with no rhyme or reason. The guys who do that have lower stats. A good death match wrestler puts psychology into his matches to make a compelling story. Brain Damage is a great death match wrestler, as is Danny Havoc (if you think he isn't about story, watch his recent barbed wire match vs. Drew Gulak, it was incredible). Other examples of guys who are GOOD death match wrestlers include Sami Callihan, Drake Younger, Masada, DJ Hyde, and Matt Tremont (he gets better with every match). Here's the thing with deathmatches. The psychology of a deathmatch is a fickle thing. I have watched several from CZW Tournament of the Death as well as FMW, WSX and lucha death matches. IMO the crash through tables, light tube log cabins and barbed wire boards that I've seen in CZW or even the lucha attempts at death matches is meh. Not knocking it but it is not as psychological as a Foley-Funk deathmatch from FMW or IWA (Japan.) Just because the death matches you've watched were bad doesn't mean all of them are. Again, I direct you to the recent Gulak vs. Havoc, or just about anything Sami Callihan's ever done. Like I said, that match didn't showcase his ability a whole lot. Unfortunately his matches with Sami from NWA-F1 aren't online, just the DVD to purchase it, but he really showcases his brawling skills there in wild arena-wide brawls. At the very least he should have late 60s to early 70s. No lower than 68 IMO. I am not denying that he COULD see it, but I have not seen the evidence to prove this. To me he is OK at it which I why I say he should be in the mid 50's and definitely not the 70's like you think. It's tough when very often promotions don't let him showcase his brawling ability because his fast paced, high flying style if so spectacular. I maintain that based on brawls I've seen him have in NWA F1 he should be in the sixties-seventies, but I'll let Bill make the ultimate call. -Check SS Look for Sam Shields. -Raise Danny E's brawl to 43, technical to 46, and selling to 67. -Raise Chris Steeler's brawl to 52 and charisma to 69. -Check Menacing for Chris Raaber. Raise his charisma to 59.

I agree with the majority of 720's list except the following: Finlay - Big deal on the indies, I'd say nearly on-par with Davey Richards. 73. Low Ki - He's on-par with Davey Richards or Homicide. 74. Shelton Benjamin - A big deal in ROH. 72. Charlie Haas - See above. 70. Rhino - Still well known. 73. El Generico - One of the biggest sensations on the indies today. 73. Mike Quackenbush - He's at 67 currently so he can be a main eventer is Chikara, which reflects his real-life overness (in Chikara) and card position. Since he is unsackable there, I so no reason why he should be lowered. 67. Sami Callihan - One of the biggest stars on the indy scene today. 64 is more than fair. Jeremy Borash - 63. Johnny Gargano - See Sami Callihan. 61. DJ Hyde - One of CZW's top heels, 52, where he currently at, is an understatement if anything. Not to be rude, but this sounds like it is coming from someone who doesn't properly understand or appreciate death match wrestling (and understandably so, given its reputation). Sure, sometimes it is about hitting guys over and over again with weapons with no rhyme or reason. The guys who do that have lower stats. A good death match wrestler puts psychology into his matches to make a compelling story. Brain Damage is a great death match wrestler, as is Danny Havoc (if you think he isn't about story, watch his recent barbed wire match vs. Drew Gulak, it was incredible). Other examples of guys who are GOOD death match wrestlers include Sami Callihan, Drake Younger, Masada, DJ Hyde, and Matt Tremont (he gets better with every match). Like I said, that match didn't showcase his ability a whole lot. Unfortunately his matches with Sami from NWA-F1 aren't online, just the DVD to purchase it, but he really showcases his brawling skills there in wild arena-wide brawls. At the very least he should have late 60s to early 70s. No lower than 68 IMO.

I can't find anything from those matches specifically online (aside from the DVD), I was referencing what I've seen at live shows. I found this on that showcases him brawling a small bit, but not a huge lot. I'll look for more tonight though when I get home from work.

I think Orton is one of the best talkers today and should be on-par at around 89-90. Ziggler I'd say is fine at 87ish. But that's just my opinion. As for something stated earlier, no question Sami deserves 84. He's tearing it up on the indies and internationally, in England, Germany, Japan, and Australia, as well. He's been doing especially incredible stuff in CZW lately with Drake Younger (and before that, Adam Cole). As for Swann, I hardly think it's fair to judge his brawl based on his work in a promotion where he doesn't brawl (like DG-USA). I've seen him brawling across buildings with Sami Callihan in NWA-F1 and he is really good. Just because he doesn't get the chance to showcase it as often doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

He's ripped and jacked like his cousin, Dave Batista. http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1176/5118747832_b6d2958a52_z.jpg Look at the picture, that explains it all. And yeah, the gimmick probably would be better as Family Guy From that picture I'd check SS Look. The others on the website he doesn't look it, though. But I'm cool with it either way. The website looks several years out of date, does he still work?

There are PLENTY of guys with 40s/50s in brawl, hundreds in the database. I try to focus on the guys who are decent and deserve the higher stats, though. There is a reason I'm not naming names - they're nobodies for a reason. The guys you've heard of on the indies, well, there is a reason you've heard of them, and a reason they're getting higher stats. As for Swann, I am basing his brawl off of his matches on smaller indies in the NJ/PA/NY area with Sami Callihan. They've had fantastic brawls, and that wasn't dues to just Sami carrying him. He deserves early 70s at least. Check out his feud with Sami from NWA-F1. TBH I wouldn't check SS Look on Jay Batista. Would Family Guy be more appropriate of a gimmick?

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense? That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid. As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment. -Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him. The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable. I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there. Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s. If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names. As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have. -Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25. -Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52. -Raise John Zandig's technical to 39. And you'd get no disagreement from me in terms of lowering the indy wrestler's stats. I firmly disagree that Ambrose would be held that highly simply because he wasn't before hand and hasn't done anything to change that. So basically you think it's more realistic to have pretty much any two people put together, who may have completely contrasting styles, represented by the same stat, put on a terrific match when that's more likely than not to be inaccurate? I firmly disagree that's the best solution we have. Finaly more often than not won't have 5 star matches. His and others stats should be representative of that. The missing occasional 5 star match is better than the constant 3 star affairs turned into 5 star ones. So anyone with high brawl that hasn't done a death match before should have their stat lowered? Just because two guys work different styles doesn't mean they can't have a good match. Masada is a great brawler, AR Fox is a great speed-based wrestler, but they had a fantastic match at CZW the other night. It doesn't need to be strong style/strong style death match/death match WWE style/WWE style to be good. Mixing it up can be just fine. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying we should include all aspects of a stat because the stat accounts for all aspects. It's simply logical and fair. I'm not saying different stats in terms of a matchup, I think that's very accurate. I don't think, say, Brain Damage and Finlay would put on as good of a brawl based match in general as say Steen and Richards. To be honest I think that would be an awesome match-up. This is how I look at it: 40s - okay. 50s - decent. 60s - good 70s - REALLY good. 80s - great. One of the top in wrestling. 90s - one of the best of all time.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense? That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid. As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment. -Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him. The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable. I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there. Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s. If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names. As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have. -Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25. -Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52. -Raise John Zandig's technical to 39. And you'd get no disagreement from me in terms of lowering the indy wrestler's stats. I firmly disagree that Ambrose would be held that highly simply because he wasn't before hand and hasn't done anything to change that. So basically you think it's more realistic to have pretty much any two people put together, who may have completely contrasting styles, represented by the same stat, put on a terrific match when that's more likely than not to be inaccurate? I firmly disagree that's the best solution we have. Finaly more often than not won't have 5 star matches. His and others stats should be representative of that. The missing occasional 5 star match is better than the constant 3 star affairs turned into 5 star ones. So anyone with high brawl that hasn't done a death match before should have their stat lowered? Just because two guys work different styles doesn't mean they can't have a good match. Masada is a great brawler, AR Fox is a great speed-based wrestler, but they had a fantastic match at CZW the other night. It doesn't need to be strong style/strong style death match/death match WWE style/WWE style to be good. Mixing it up can be just fine.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR. IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions. But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game. Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up. -Bill That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas. Why should he be lower than guys on the current NXT? It's not nationally distributed in any way, shape, or form. And it doesn't change the fact that Ambrose has a ridiculous amount of hype and momentum following him on the internet and by the independent fans that should not be ignored. BECAUSE AMBROSE WOULD GET THE SAME REACTION AS THEM ON WWE TV!!!! But TV isn't the end all, be all for overness. There is the independent scene and their reaction in other promotions to consider, too. As for the nine point buffer, the second you have someone in a card position they are not over enough for (main eventer in global with 90 instead of 91), it hurts their overness and the writers/road agents say they are being pushed too much. Moxley can and has main evented CZW/DG-USA/Evolve, why not put him at 66? Same with Hero.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR. IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions. But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game. Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up. -Bill That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas. Why should he be lower than guys on the current NXT? It's not nationally distributed in any way, shape, or form. And it doesn't change the fact that Ambrose has a ridiculous amount of hype and momentum following him on the internet and by the independent fans that should not be ignored.

Responses are in bold. Since when is ROH the end-all, be-all for indy wrestling? Moxley was a main eventer in two of the top indy promotions in America as far as exposure goes - CZW and DG-USA. Steamboat is a decent worker and has interest in him based off of who his father is, but he isn't a point of excitement that has captivated the IWC like Moxley. Kassius Ohno's overness should be at 66. Looking at it now, I'm shocked at how low it is. Aside from his overness from when he was on the indy scene, he has A LOT of momentum and popularity in FCW already (he is already one of the top guys there). Seth Rollins I'd say has lost steam over the past year just drifting in developmental, as has Bray Wyatt (who is slowly gaining it back with his latest gimmick). Bo Dallas is slowly gaining momentum as well The problem here is there are all of these guys are now in WWE developmental who are more over than guys on the main roster. Would there be pockets that these guys are over like the ECW guys in the northeast, yes. To have guys that are more over in a glorified developmental (the new NXT) than a majority of the Superstars Crew (Mike McG, Tyson, Hawkins, Ryder, The Uso, The Prime Times (currently) and even those like Epico and Primo who aren't getting reactions period) is ridiculousness. I recognize that yes, these guys are not hot commodities right now but seriously, guys that only the die-hard fans who are willing to watch any wrestling and are over are more over? While Epico and Primo cannot get pops in a 15,000 seat arena, I don't think Dalls, Steamer, Ohno, Rollins, Wyatt or Ambrose can do better than Epico and Primo at THIS point. Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that. I see there as being two components to overness - how well known someone is and how much current active interest/momentum someone has. It's why someone like Virgil, who virtually every fan knows about who he is or has at least heard of him in relation to Ted DiBiase, but he only at 44 because nobody actually cares. For the indies Davey Richards is as well known as you can get, however his momentum is starting to fall slightly, I'd say. For example, Kevin Steen isn't quite as well known - very well known for an indy worker, but not as much as Richards, but he has HUGE momentum going right now. As for Roddy, he is well known on the indy scene, but it hasn't been til recently that he is starting to make people actually care about him and gain momentum. Sure, he may have been a major player for awhile in ROH, but I feel a lot of that time he was drifting around and compared to the fans' responses to guys like Aries and Joe, he was near receiving apathy. Rambling aside, Moxley is incredibly well known on the indy scene. Easily enough to main event a cult-level promotion like CZW, PWG, DG-USA, or Chikara, where to be a main eventer you need to at least have an overness of 66). But indy-fame aside, he has an incredibly huge amount of momentum, a buzz similar to when Daniel Bryan and Punk were on the verge of joining the roster. I don't think the same buzz is on Moxley as is with Punk or Bryan. Punk and Bryan had entire promotions built around them. Punk was the MVP of Ring of Honor from mid 2003 until the end of the summer of Punk on the mic and in the ring. Right after that, Bryan took the mantle for the in-ring and then later became the best on the mic. He was their star until about 2007. Who else in ROH history had as many great matches and feuds as RoH champion? Joe is the only to come to mind. Punk and Bryan are two guys that had a big buzz going into WWE and I had heard it about Ambrose and then after April when the reports of him being in the dog house came out, it went away. As for Moxley, he lead an up-swing in CZW with the Switchblade Conspiracy I will give him that but I feel his DG-USA stuff was more or less because he was the only man left at the time and he was the spokesman for the top heel group. His promos were great, I've seen a few from the Jacobs feud but that is charisma and not overness. Moxley was the last American (other than CHIKARA) standing. The other American guys left because they got offered deals elsewhere whether it was WWE, TNA or RoH that conflicted with their ability to be on DGUSA shows. I still say that the promotion was built more around the Dragon Gate guys or even Ronin than it was Moxley. Moxley was just the spokesman for the main heel stable in DGUSA because none of them spoke English. Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut. Agree with the gimmick and the disposition but NOT with the overness as per points mention above. Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous. What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Since when is ROH the end-all, be-all for indy wrestling? Moxley was a main eventer in two of the top indy promotions in America as far as exposure goes - CZW and DG-USA. Steamboat is a decent worker and has interest in him based off of who his father is, but he isn't a point of excitement that has captivated the IWC like Moxley. Kassius Ohno's overness should be at 66. Looking at it now, I'm shocked at how low it is. Aside from his overness from when he was on the indy scene, he has A LOT of momentum and popularity in FCW already (he is already one of the top guys there). Seth Rollins I'd say has lost steam over the past year just drifting in developmental, as has Bray Wyatt (who is slowly gaining it back with his latest gimmick). Bo Dallas is slowly gaining momentum as well. I see there as being two components to overness - how well known someone is and how much current active interest/momentum someone has. It's why someone like Virgil, who virtually every fan knows about who he is or has at least heard of him in relation to Ted DiBiase, but he only at 44 because nobody actually cares. For the indies Davey Richards is as well known as you can get, however his momentum is starting to fall slightly, I'd say. For example, Kevin Steen isn't quite as well known - very well known for an indy worker, but not as much as Richards, but he has HUGE momentum going right now. As for Roddy, he is well known on the indy scene, but it hasn't been til recently that he is starting to make people actually care about him and gain momentum. Sure, he may have been a major player for awhile in ROH, but I feel a lot of that time he was drifting around and compared to the fans' responses to guys like Aries and Joe, he was near receiving apathy. Rambling aside, Moxley is incredibly well known on the indy scene. Easily enough to main event a cult-level promotion like CZW, PWG, DG-USA, or Chikara, where to be a main eventer you need to at least have an overness of 66). But indy-fame aside, he has an incredibly huge amount of momentum, a buzz similar to when Daniel Bryan and Punk were on the verge of joining the roster. I really don't see how that is material to the argument at all. Most likely, in my opinion, is because they are more interested in having him go straight to the main roster instead of diluting him through NXT. -Raise Kassius Ohno's overness to 66. Change his gimmick to Ice Man. Make him a heel. Edit: Kind of off-topic, is the "dog house" statement based on a report, or is that just speculation due to how long he has been on the road with WWE without being on TV? As far as I know he is regularly working dark matches still.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense? That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid. As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment. -Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him. The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable. I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there. Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s. If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names. As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have. -Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25. -Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52. -Raise John Zandig's technical to 39.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense? That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid. As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment. -Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him. The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable. I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense? That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid. As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment. -Raise Blk Jeez's overness to 57. Check Trainer. -Raise Joker's overness to 52. -Raise Adam Cole's brawl to 74 and charisma to 81. -Raise Robert Anthony's overness to 53. Make him a non-wrestler. -Raise Masada's selling to 74 and overness to 59. -Raise Drake Younger's speed to 53 and charisma to 76. Check SS Look. Raise his wages to 18,000. -Check High Spots and Menacing for Billy Gram. Raise his overness to 29. -Raise Dean Ambrose's brawl to 78, stiffness to 45, selling to 93, and overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him. -Check Announcer for Zack Sabre Jr. Raise his overness to 36. -Check Announcer for Devon Moore. Raise his overness to 50. -Lower William Regal's stiffness to 71. Raise his selling to 83. -Add a dislike between Billy Gram and Devon Moore (based on Moore’s shoot with Smart Mark). -Raise Ryan Tran's talent to 73. -Raise the Young Lion's Cup's image to 42. -Raise the Campeones de Parejas's image to 52. -Raise the Chikara Grand Champion's image to 60. -Raise the CZW World Junior Heavyweight Championship's image to 54. -Raise the CZW World Heavyweight Championship's image to 58.

So Doug Williams should be around say 92, Regal at 90, and Angle at 92 sounds about good to me. I apologize for not being clear, I meant the other way around: Williams should be at 90, Regal at 92, and Angle at 90. IMO Cena is one of the best sellers in the business, it is one of the main reasons he is the top guy - he knows how to get moves over and make them look devastating. I'd leave it at the least as is. If he knew how to sell things he would have sold a 20 minute beatdown by The Miz in that I Quit match better during his two minute comeback. Plus he doesn't sell whenever he has his comebacks on any RAWs. PPV are different but they are done once a month while he will be on RAW wrestling 4 to 5 times a month. I still stand by what I think and YES, I thought he did good last night. The problem is his body of work begs to differ. I still say that Williams and Angle should be better than Quacks but I don't want to sound like a broken record. Angle may have USED to be better, but I don't think in this day and age he is. Williams is close but I still think Quack has the edge. As for Cena, he knows how to sell effectively with his goal being to get the audience into it, the same way Hulk Hogan did in the 80s. I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too. -Add the stable "Ohio is For Killers" to CZW: Sami Callihan (leader), Dave Crist, and Jake Crist (turn heel). -Raise Dave Crist's charisma to 68. -Raise Kid America (who needs to be renamed to Mike Kehner)'s overness to 38. -Lower Matt Saigon's technical to 74. -Raise Kekoa's overness to 32. Check Fonz Factor. Change his ECWA gimmick to Cool.

So Doug Williams should be around say 92, Regal at 90, and Angle at 92 sounds about good to me. I apologize for not being clear, I meant the other way around: Williams should be at 90, Regal at 92, and Angle at 90. IMO Cena is one of the best sellers in the business, it is one of the main reasons he is the top guy - he knows how to get moves over and make them look devastating. I'd leave it at the least as is. -El Generico's overness should be at 71. -Grizzly Redwood's overness should stay the same, he is still over on the indy scene. All of CZW's shows run on iPPV, so make them all PPVs.

So you just say Punk but NOT the others. I am saying that IF you let Punk go, he can be on-par with Quacks and not doing his current WWE style with the WWE opponents. I also mentioned other great technicians like Angle, Bryan, Richards, Regal and Williams that I feel are either on-par with Quacks or better. I honestly think IF Quack's technical is raised they all should be too either be on-par OR better than him. I just used Punk as a single example. I'd say Doug Williams he is on-par/maybe a point higher, William Regal on-par/maybe a point lower, Kurt Angle better than (in this day and age), and Punk head and shoulders better than.

I really think Quack is head and shoulders above Punk for technical wrestling. IMO he's one of the best of the last decade. -AR Fox is the new CZW World Junior Heavyweight Champion. -Lower Balls Mahoney's attitude to 68 and behavior to 36. Based off of watching the preview of his latest shoot, not to mention all of the incidents he's been in as of late.