KrisClassic

I think you make a very valid point, one I've used in terms of discussing music, but at the same time, there's no absolute objective measure. Good and bad are purely subjective, as are the scales we use when deciding. There's no one unanimous scale. Some people think how well you play your instrument is the key talent factor. Other singing voice. Another song writing. The only reason we "know" that King is a good writer is that's what the masses and critics say. Masses also said black people were subhuman, so I'm not a fan of mob rule, but I digress. We could look at his story mapping, his usage of language, so many other things. Same with the wrestlers. I look at the stat as how well he executes brawling type moves, and how many of them he has. He's got almost none these days, though the execution is fine. That warrants a low 70s in my book. You see it as something different. I don't think either method is inherently better than the rest, but yes, I'd argue the fact his moves are almost non existent these days (not that he had many to begin with, but he used to move much better in general, again, I digress) and that he's such a Larry Zbyszko, his over (people's knowledge of/reaction to him) and his charisma and selling (which I throw psychology under) help carry his matches, which are mostly laying around spot fests. But it's fine we disagree, I think both viewpoints, as I said are equally valid. The issue comes with you saying, if I read it right, "The compromise should be the absolute lowest I feel is acceptable". The problem is, this isn't about just you. You have a wide array of people saying 81 is insane for him. Their input is just as valid as yours, and not weighted, that averages out to a 71. Your opinion is not any more special than nay other poster's. Now, if you;'re saying, "okay, I give a little, I can reasonably state that 81 is okay enough, now you guys come up to the highest you think he can be, and we'll go from there", that's fine and I apologize, but it hasn't read that way. As the music forum's tagline goes "Some people like Paul McCartney, but there are over 100 musical acts preferred by EWB." This is the subset of people we have voicing opinions, just like on a board of teenage girls, Stephen King would get a low rating from them. It is what it is, what we have to work with. It's a pretty democratic process thanks to Bill, and sometimes things don't break the way we would like them to, it happens. I hope that made sense and didn't come off too douchey, I was just trying to strongly explain my point and why I'm a bit exasperated. I hear what you're saying. But it is hard for me to take some of the naysayers seriously when one of the people who suggested a brawl in the 60s admitted to not even watching Undertaker's recent matches. Like said earlier, the 60s people seem like they are just suggesting lower to take advantage of the averaging. I do, and that's fine, but that means I'm not allowed to have a debate on something? This is a forum based around a text-based professional wrestling game, and this is a topic about suggesting stats about said game. Implying that someoen else here is a loser is really a case of pot, kettle, black. CH, Gazz, grow up.

His psychology is superb. Second to none. There is simply no arguing that. There is no "psychology" stat in EWR, so we need to improvise. It definitely has parts of it in selling (which is why he has one of the best selling stats in the game) and it has a place in charisma (which he has on the higher end), but for Undertaker out of the wrestling style options (brawl/speed/technical) it makes its place felt most in the brawl side. Whether it is how his matches are linked together move to move, sell to sell, or even how the moves are actually performed, whether they be actual moves or strikes, he is second to none. Now, I see some people are saying that his matches are plodding or boring. To me that seems like a subject of taste, not of actual skill or merit. Stephen King is without doubt held as one of the greatest horror novelists of all time, but if someone didn't like horror stories, would that mean they consider Stephen King a bad writer? No, it just isn't their thing. Sure, Undertaker's way of wrestling/storytelling may not be everyone's thing, the same way death match wrestling or lucha libre isn't everyone's thing, but that doesn't mean he should have low brawl just because you don't like it. If someone doesn't like lucha they wouldn't suggest lowering Sin Cara's speed just on that premise. I feel it's the exact same situation for the Undertaker. His style to some may be niche (just as lucha or death match wrestling is), but he excels at it. If it were up to me he'd have a brawl in the high 80s in the least, but seeing as this isn't up to me and it is a place where we need to compromise, the lowest that I think is fair is 81.

It does when what the outcome was didn't represent the overall opinion. More people argued for a brawl in the 80s than one in the 70s or lower. It was exactly even last I recall. It was pretty much split down the middle, and a couple of people were calling for his numbers in the 60s so Bill compromised. The majority of people called for it in the mid 80s. One person called for it in the sixties. A better compromise would be 81 IMO.

Lower Local TV Station's Production standard to 40.

-Raise Shaggy 2 Dope and Violent J's attitude to 82. Raise Violent J's speed to 18 and technical to 9. Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like face, People's Boss, might be better gimmicks for them in JCW. Maybe check Menacing for both. -Lower Sabu's brawl to 71 and speed to 52. -Lower The Weedman's brawl to 56, speed to 67, and stiffness to 46. Raise his technical to 33, overness to 36, and charisma to 61. Change his secondary finisher to Superkick (Impact). -Make Shaggy 2 Dope the Color Commentator of JCW. Raise their advertising to 40, merchandising to 30, and public image to 48. -Raise the JCW Heavyweight Championship's image to 35. -Raise the JCW Tag Team Championship's image to 24. -Add the following events for JCW to the game: -Rename Osyris to Kongo Kong. Raise his brawl to 64, speed to 46, technical to 28, overness to 39, and charisma to 66. Add him to JCW, Mid Card, Heel, Savage. Change his secondary finisher to Super Bomb (Impact). -Raise 2 Tuff Tony's speed to 43, overness to 44, and charisma to 60. -Raise Corporal Robinson's speed to 13, technical to 36, overness to 37, and charisma to 60. Remove him from JCW. -Raise Bull Pain's overness to 42. -Make Vampiro a face for JCW. -Raise Mad Man Pondo's technical to 19 and overness to 43.

It does when what the outcome was didn't represent the overall opinion. More people argued for a brawl in the 80s than one in the 70s or lower.

Nope, you have another Data package. As for the sitting up argument, that isn't a selling issue, that is part of his character. He is right up there with Terry Funk as one of the best sellers of all-time.

-Check High Spots for 2 Tuff Tony. -Raise Ryback's overness to 73. -Lower Jack Swagger's overness to 74. -Raise Triple H's brawl to 82. -Undertaker's brawl is seriously at 77? That's ridiculous. AT THE LEAST in the early 80s. Raise his technical to 54 and selling to 100. -Uncheck SS Look for Natalya Neidhart. Raise her stiffness to 48. -Raise Rob Van Dam's selling to 91. -Raise The Miz's brawl to 73. -Add Gran Apolo to WWC. Main Event, Face, No Gimmick Needed. Change his name to Apollo. He is the WWC Universal Champion. Raise his brawl to 73, speed to 30, and technical to 54. Change his age to 37. -Raise Brent Dail's technical to 41.

-Make Ric Blade a non-wrestler. Lower his brawl to 56, speed to 63, and technical to 49. -Raise Dameon Slugga's speed to 18, technical to 27, and his charisma to 52. Lower his brawl to 64. -Change David Starr's secondary finisher to Dragon Sleeper (Sub). Raise his stiffness to 54. -Raise The Dynamic Sensation's speed to 64, technical to 50, and stiffness to 52. Change his finishers to FJM (Impact), secondary Dynamic Splash (Top Rope). -Change Mikey Valentino's primary finisher to Northern Lights Suplex (Impact). -Change Shane Strickland's primary finisher to 450 Splash (Top Rope) and his secondary to Superkick (impact). -Raise Dan Rodman's technical to 23, stiffness to 48, and charisma to 83. -Raise Tommy Suede's brawl to 62. Change his primary to 450 Splash (Top Rope) and his secondary to Kryptonite Krunch. -Change Latin Dragon's finishers to Phoenix Splash (Top Rope) and Psycho Driver (Impact). Change speaks to no. -Raise Larry Zbyszko's charisma to 82. -Lower Jeff Hardy's technical to 53. -Is there a reason Kurt Angle's speed is at 64? Having a good looking moonsault and being able to hit a botchy 450 isn't cause for that high of a rating. I'd drop him to 48-52. -Add the following WXW C4 Events: Yokozuna Memorial Show (October, Medium), and Wild Samoan Cup (April, Medium).

Lower Pepper Park's wages to 15,000.

Lower Swagger's behavior...by...a lot. I wouldn't lower it too drastically. What was your source for it? Even if it was credible, I wouldn't put it past high 70s/low 80s. I would lower his attitude as well, to t' mid/high 80s. -Raise Isis t' Amazon's overness to 38. -Raise Josh Barnett's speed to 29, technical to 82, selling to 62, and overness to 53. Lower his brawl to 74 and stiffness to 71. Change his gimmick to Legitimate Athlete. Change his primary finisher to Brainbuster (Impact) and his secondary to Sitout Powerbomb (Impact). Raise his behavior to 62. Make him an active wrestler. Lower his wages to 72,000. I think we should make Pride a substitute for Inoki Genome Federation. Like Pride, IGF combines pro wrestling and shoot-fighting. It would make for more accurate (and better) game play, in my opinion. Roster via Wiki. I know Josh Barnett should be on it as well, unsure if anyone else outside of what is mentioned there should be. I also think we should reconsider leaving Joseph Mercury in t' game. He hasn't wrestled in years and is a full-time trainer for WWE's developmental. -Raise Young Wolves Rising's experience to 15. -Raise Team Ambition's experience to 15.

Spoken by someone who truly knows nothing about death matches. No offense intended, as I was t' same way until I started checking out CZW. Sure, anyone can death match wrestle, just like anyone can wrestle a normal match, but it takes special skill to be able to pull it off well. As for saying Brain Damage can't have a good match without weapons, that is just an assumption. Unless you have an example of where he's had several bad match without weapons, that is. And we shouldn't base stats off of guesses. t' problem is this, I looked for a Brain Damage match on youtube and I could find is death match. That is t' one style he does and he is good with it maybe not 80's, perhaps 75-78 in my estimation from his matches with Beef and that from 2009 (gotta love t' content that makes YouTube and don't.) I personally don't get t' point of doing matches with log cabins of light tubes or weedwhackers in a vaccum like Tournament of Death but to each their own. Bully Ray however can do brawls, hardcore and could do deathmatch if thrown in. Brain Damage, who knows if he can. Because you nor I have seen him in such a match. Exactly, we don't know, so we shouldn't just assume. And having seen Brain Damage's broader base of work, he is probably t' best death match wrestler I have ever seen. Period. He easily deserves mid-to-high 80s. As for t' Brad Maddox thing, I think we should hold off. This may be a one-time thing, a short-time thing, or maybe even an angle. Let's give in a month or two then see. If he makes another appearance or two I would add him to t' main roster with a staff member gimmick. If after a month or two nothing changes, then add him to staff. Okay, maybe that is true, but my point is just because someone does death matches doesn't mean they should have high brawl. Brain Damage could be a special case and actually be good at it. But there are tons of guys that do death matches that are terrible and shouldn't even have an okay brawl stat. Much like diving off a balcony shouldn't automatically give you a high speed stat, going through light tubes shouldn't give you a good brawl stat. Doing something is one thing, being good at it is a completely other can of bees. You're absolutely right. There are PLENTY of death match guys in t' game who don't have a high brawl. I never said assign a high brawl stat to all death match guys just because they are death match guys. It's just like any other stat. If (all in my opinion, of course) I feel they deserve X stat, I suggest it. -Check Booker for Doc Daniels. Raise his selling to 57. -Raise David Starr's brawl to 66, technical to 68, overness to 28, and charisma to 67. (Apologies, but this kid gets better and better each time I see him. He reminds me of Adam Cole when he first started.) -Raise Bo Nekoda's speed to 45 and technical to 48. -Add t' Samoan Legacy (stable) to WXW C4: Samu (leader), Afa Jr, Lance Anoai, and LA Smooth. -Remove Solo from t' Credle Collective. Remove Shawn Credle as his manager. Turn him face, Bad Ass. Raise his overness to 11. (Apologies, he just turned last show, August 18th, after being kicked out of t' stable and beat down.) -Add a friendship between Snitsky and Afa Jr. -Change t' name of t' team t' Privates to t' Pri-Vets.

Spoken by someone who truly knows nothing about death matches. No offense intended, as I was t' same way until I started checking out CZW. Sure, anyone can death match wrestle, just like anyone can wrestle a normal match, but it takes special skill to be able to pull it off well. As for saying Brain Damage can't have a good match without weapons, that is just an assumption. Unless you have an example of where he's had several bad match without weapons, that is. And we shouldn't base stats off of guesses. t' problem is this, I looked for a Brain Damage match on youtube and I could find is death match. That is t' one style he does and he is good with it maybe not 80's, perhaps 75-78 in my estimation from his matches with Beef and that from 2009 (gotta love t' content that makes YouTube and don't.) I personally don't get t' point of doing matches with log cabins of light tubes or weedwhackers in a vaccum like Tournament of Death but to each their own. Bully Ray however can do brawls, hardcore and could do deathmatch if thrown in. Brain Damage, who knows if he can. Because you nor I have seen him in such a match. Exactly, we don't know, so we shouldn't just assume. And having seen Brain Damage's broader base of work, he is probably t' best death match wrestler I have ever seen. Period. He easily deserves mid-to-high 80s. As for t' Brad Maddox thing, I think we should hold off. This may be a one-time thing, a short-time thing, or maybe even an angle. Let's give in a month or two then see. If he makes another appearance or two I would add him to t' main roster with a staff member gimmick. If after a month or two nothing changes, then add him to staff.

Spoken by someone who truly knows nothing about death matches. No offense intended, as I was t' same way until I started checking out CZW. Sure, anyone can death match wrestle, just like anyone can wrestle a normal match, but it takes special skill to be able to pull it off well. As for saying Brain Damage can't have a good match without weapons, that is just an assumption. Unless you have an example of where he's had several bad match without weapons, that is. And we shouldn't base stats off of guesses. As for Fox, in t' past I would have agreed but in t' past year he's gotten much better. Not as good as Generico, but he is becoming one of t' top speed-based wrestlers on t' indy scene today.

Me calling you a mark isn't name calling, it is t' way I see it. t' bolded statement is what I am talking about. You've said before that t' stat doesn't include deathmatch guys for brawl, fast people for speed and maybe one for technical and that we should take both in consideration. Now when it comes to one of t' guys you say should have a high brawl stat, you flip-flop like a politician. To me (and at least one other) it looks like you changed your views because Bully Ray isn't an indy guy you see week in and week out. Brain Damage only works deathmatch style matche so he is higher than Bully Ray, you gotta be kidding me. Bully Ray is a full package. In thr hardy match it was not t' best but he has done good with other matches in a similar style which is why I (and others) are saying he should be kept in t' same spot. That is where thr mark comment came in, it seems you have a bias to guys in t' current philly area that you see week in and week out and anyone else that isn't you don't jack up them so they can have 5-star matches. I'm not flip flopping at all. If Brain Damage started working a different brawling style (instead of death match, say, sports entertainment style, or strong style), and he royally sucked, I would say lower his brawl a bit to find an average between t' two that he does. But all he does is death match wrestling, so I'm not going to just say lower his brawl because I assume he can't do anything else. Bully Ray, he may be good at hardcore wrestling (unsure, haven't seen him recently), but from what I saw on Impact vs. Jeff Hardy, it was incredibly basic and not at all impressive, not at all deserving one of t' top brawl stats in t' game. I'm not saying lower his brawl to t' 60s, but where he is at now is incredible overrated. 80-82 would suffice in my opinion.

Wait, what? Isn't this the exact same argument I made for other guys? Yeah he has said well rounded performances in July. I guess we found out that he is a total mark for the current crop of Philly based indies. Anyone who wrestles outside gets lowered. IMO Bully Ray is not overrated but Hardy would be too low at 72. I say 76 the least because when he is on he is great but he has had more off days since his WWE departure. First of all, no, it isn't the same at all. What I said was, if someone is exhibiting a certain brawling style and is good at it, their stat should reflect that. Brain Damage has high brawl because he is great at death matches. That's what he does, death matches. If he started doing sports entertainment style matches and was the drizzling shits, I'd be in support of lowering his stats. I'm unsure how Bully Ray does at hardcore matches in this day and age, but what he exhibited on Impact is in NO WAY of something deserving of 86. It was incredibly basic and not something of someone deserving one of the top brawls in the game. As for Hardy, I don't get why he deserves anything that high in speed. He is incredibly sloppy and just not that good. If we were to objectively compare his speed-based skill to other guys in that range, they would far outrank him. He really doesn't do anything to deserve that high of a speed. As for the remark about me being a "total mark", well that's pot, kettle, black, right? All wrestling fans are marks. The fact that you are trying to use that specifically as an insult (let alone trying to insult me at all) is pathetic and you need to grow up. You don't know how good Bully Ray is in hardcore matches anymore than you don't lower it. IMO, I would lower Brain Damage to be on par. Bully Ray is still a borderline great brawler. Seriously you are a mark for the tri-state guys with the amounts of super stats you have given to Rich Swann and others. Just look at the amount of taleng with 70s in their stats you have offered. I can think of Dustin Rayz also. I personally want to know if you just like to post stats for ghese guys no one can see and then hope no one calls your bluff. 90 percent of the guys you have given stats for I cannot watch regulary enough to follow. When I create stats, I always play conservative on stats even when it is luchadors or Dragon Gate guys to adjust for . I've watched a lot of matches and I try to be fair and don't say well because they are great high flyers the luchadores desrve high 7o's and 80's like you seem to do. Maybe it is immature to call you a mark but you haven't shown anyway you aren't with the aprrent bias you have. I don't see what lowering Brain Damage has to do with anything. Brain Damage is great at death matches. That is what he does. I'm unsure if he is good at other match styles, but he isn't doing them so it isn't an issue for us to judge because we have no way to. Bully Ray may (or may not) be good at hardcore matches, but he is terribly plain at other styles of brawling matches and we know that for a fact, we should lower his stats to account for that. I honestly don't get what your problem is. I watch a match. If they deserve a high rate, I give it. It has nothing to do with bias or anything like that. Can't watch them regularly? Not my problem. You are perfectly capable of buying a DVD. I suggest you grow up and stop making this a personal issue. Have individual problems with stats that you can readily say, "I've seen him and he doesn't deserve that", then fine. But there is absolutely no need to start name calling and start hurling accusations.

Wait, what? Isn't this the exact same argument I made for other guys? Yeah he has said well rounded performances in July. I guess we found out that he is a total mark for the current crop of Philly based indies. Anyone who wrestles outside gets lowered. IMO Bully Ray is not overrated but Hardy would be too low at 72. I say 76 the least because when he is on he is great but he has had more off days since his WWE departure. First of all, no, it isn't the same at all. What I said was, if someone is exhibiting a certain brawling style and is good at it, their stat should reflect that. Brain Damage has high brawl because he is great at death matches. That's what he does, death matches. If he started doing sports entertainment style matches and was the drizzling shits, I'd be in support of lowering his stats. I'm unsure how Bully Ray does at hardcore matches in this day and age, but what he exhibited on Impact is in NO WAY of something deserving of 86. It was incredibly basic and not something of someone deserving one of the top brawls in the game. As for Hardy, I don't get why he deserves anything that high in speed. He is incredibly sloppy and just not that good. If we were to objectively compare his speed-based skill to other guys in that range, they would far outrank him. He really doesn't do anything to deserve that high of a speed. As for the remark about me being a "total mark", well that's pot, kettle, black, right? All wrestling fans are marks. The fact that you are trying to use that specifically as an insult (let alone trying to insult me at all) is pathetic and you need to grow up.

Watching TNA tonight, I feel like Bully Ray is VERY overrated when it comes to brawl. From what he displayed in that match I wouldn't put him higher than a 73. Maybe in a more hardcore environment he can go, but I would lower his brawl to at least the early 80s. Raise his technical to 36. Lower his stiffness to 64. Lower his attitude to 74 and his behavior to 71. I also feel like Jeff Hardy's speed is incredibly overrated. No more than 73. -Raise Madison Rayne's stiffness to 37 and selling to 53.

I wouldn't lower it that much. Early 70s at lowest.

-Add Bo Nekoda to The Credle Collective stable in WXW C4. -Create a stable The Daniels Dynasty, for WXW C4. Leader: Doc Daniels. Other members are Tommy Suede and Eric Cobian (who should have Daniels as his manager).

-Add Nation of Intoxication II (Devon Moore and tHURTeen), 5 exp. They are the new CZW World Tag Team Champions. -Raise Joker's brawl to 79, technical to 68, stiffness to 82, and overness to 55. -Raise Blk Jeez's overness to 57. -Raise Matt Tremont's brawl to 73 and overness to 54. -Remove Scotty Vortekz from CZW (and from the Nation of Intoxication stable). -Check speaks to no for Latin Dragon. -Change Kimber Lee's CZW gimmick to Secretary and add her to the Campaign For A Better CZW stable. -Raise AR Fox's overness to 56. -Raise Shane Strickland's overness to 39. -Lower Rory Mondo's brawl to 58 and speed to 57. Raise his overness to 33. -Raise Latin Dragon's stiffness to 65 and overness to 35. Raise his age to 30. -Raise El Generico's brawl to 64.

The Street Fighter gimmick requires the promotion risk to be at least 50... You had WXWC4's risk at 46, MCW's is at 52, so it'll be fine there. The obvious options would be the use the arrogant gimmick in WXW-C4 or bump their risk over 50... Also, it wasn't mentioned in the notes, but Afa's daughter, Vale Anoai, is in the game as a production worker... Dunno if she's involved in WXW-C4 at all or not. -Bill Afa and Vale (as far as my knowledge) don't work in WXW C4, they work for WXW, the Florida branch, so I would leave them out of the promotion. Nearly forgot: remove Devon Moore from JAPW and add him to WXW, Upper Mid Card, Face, No Gimmick Needed.

-Raise Hade Vansen's technical to 48, overness to 32, and charisma to 74. -Raise Gunner's brawl to 71. -Raise Steve Blackman's charisma to 50. Check Menacing. Lower his wages to 43,000. -Raise Stephanie McMahon's stiffness to 33, selling to 64, and overness to 81. -Lower Shane McMahon's stiffness to 54. -Lower Linda McMahon's speed to 0, stiffness to 30, and selling to 56. For WXW C4, create an owner, The Anoai Family, age 40, talent 74, backstage 84. Check Unsackable. Just tested, Street Fighter doesn't work for Drolix, Chuck Lennox, and Marcus Streets in WXW C4, probably doesn't for them in MCW either. Arrogant works for all three, instead.

Definitely. -Add Brandon Scott to the game: -Add Gustin Uberstud to the game: With that, all of WXW's roster is in-game. NWA-F1 appears to be done, so unless there is any objection, that should be removed and replaced with WXW C4:

Niya is already in, under the name Ezavel Suena (Worker 4895) ... She's used the name recently in WSU. Ah, in that case update her stats to what I suggested along with finishers/alter egos/relationships, please. Rename her to Niya, as well. -Add Marcus Streets to the game: -Make Alex Anthony a lightweight. Lower his wages to 6,000. Raise his brawl to 42, speed to 54, and overness to 12. Change his secondary finisher to Cutter (impact). -Check Menacing for Shorty Smalls. Raise his technical to 39, stiffness to 38, and selling to 60.