2008/2009 Hockey Thread v2.0

[Reddaye]

Tonight's Coaches Corner actually made me feel embarrassed. I usually don't mind Cherry's comments, and sometimes even agree with him...but his tirade about Ovechkin just made me shake my head.

Heaven forbid that we'd get a hockey player that has personality and is exciting. We really need more bland automatons...ugh.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Drifter_2000

[Toe]

Kubina, you fucking rock.

[Clawson]

I'm gonna hate myself for saying this but I would much prefer a miracle playoff position to a top-5 pick. And the scary thing is we've cut the deficet in half this past week.

[Plubby]

Everytime CuJo gets a win, I smile.

See?

[Toe]

I'm gonna hate myself for saying this but I would much prefer a miracle playoff position to a top-5 pick. And the scary thing is we've cut the deficet in half this past week.

I know EXACTLY how you feel.

[Gabriel]

I'm gonna hate myself for saying this but I would much prefer a miracle playoff position to a top-5 pick. And the scary thing is we've cut the deficet in half this past week.

I know EXACTLY how you feel.

I've been saying this all year.

You don't absolutely have to get worse to get better... and the people who have that mindset are just fucking crazy. First off, you're taking a hell of a risk, hoping the fans will support a team while you purposely gut it. Second, there's really no need.

Would a top 5 pick be nice in terms of building the club? Yes it would... but it's not the only way to build a better team. Smart free agent signings and trades can do just as much for a team as landing a John Tavares or Victor Hedman.

You got Luke Schenn last year, who's been christened as the guy to build the team around. You don't NEED another one. Schenn's been great this season... dump the guys who aren't part of the plan, make intelligent acquisitions, get more picks if that's what you want... but don't purposely gut the team so that they finish poorly. That's just fucking stupid.

[Plubby]

Leafs vs. Islanders. The good news is there will be one NHL-calibre goalie in the building tonight. The bad news is it will be Garth Snow.

Brian Burke's twitter

[Enter Blue Guy]

Forgive this massive post, it could really two or three posts... but that's not allowed.

My take on rebuilding through the draft.

The draft is a gamble that leans towards the purpose of making the worst teams better. To completely rely on the early rounds of the draft to rebuild your team is ridiculous. It's worked for some like Pittsburgh, Washington, and Chicago, but look at most teams that make yearly trips to the top lotto spots; Tampa Bay (rags to riches, then rags again overnight), Long Island, Atlanta, Phoenix, LA to name the most familiar yearly suspects. It is nice to see Florida do well this season or else you could throw them in there too. Columbus is still pretty virginal and they too are doing well this year. But they rest of them own property in the NHL basement.

You build a core and hopefully in 3-4 years you will be in the process of building around that core and taking the next step. Or in the case of a lot of these yearly bottom feeders, your core matures into young vets, but not really going anywhere so you start drafting your next wave of prospects and hopefully you can make it work next year. Or the year after that. Then what do you do when all your young stars all need contracts around the same time? Start all over again?

There are various reasons why the same teams shit the bed every year, it's not always just to get a desired young stud, in one of NYI many problems their star goalie spends half his career in a full body cast or something, but in a lot of cases franchises are so quick to look to the draft as a symbol of hope and maybe stop short of making other moves to improve in favor of stockpiling and holding out for draft day.

Obviously the draft is a mighty tool that can be great to take advantage of if you need to, but if I'm a GM, I put major emphasis on scouting and if by chance I end up in a position where I have a premium spot in line to grab a building block, I take what I need or I try to trade it off and get something I'm confident I can use in the future. If that's not possible, then you take a chance grab on something you hope will be beneficial in one way or another.

All that is easier said than anything else. I'm nothing more than a puckhead playing fantasy GM, not an actual GM feeling everyday pressures of turning a hemorrhaging team around. All I know is that I'd feel much more comfortable with a rebuilding franchise with a high value on scouting some of the less familiar young talent, that can make the sensible deals, and shows competence with team management, rather than selling it all for picks and over-farming your crop of prospect in draft after draft after draft.

So far Brian Burke is passing on being the GM of team on the mend.

NOW! On to the Maple Buds.

On defense;

I'd like to keep a core of Schenn(duh) and White, along with at the very least either one of Kaberle or Kubina.

I've said what I had to about Kaberle. At his price and contract length, he is very worth to keep around as a veteran, point producing leader. On the flip, if the chance arises and you can unload Kubina's 5 mil, take it.

With the $4 Million dollar man in Finger, you have to keep him. And in all honesty, he's had a pretty good second half of the season. Not even worth 2 of his 4 mil, but enough that I can make my peace with the deal and move on.

Van Ryn is a solid vet and has been a catalyst when he's been healthy, but he is a movable piece that can be replaced and is attracting attention from teams. He could easily be gone by the 4th.

I like Sifers, but he is lacking real NHL experience. He shows some nice promise, but still very green. He's at a point where you have either fit him into the lineup now and start to get something out of him or he may not be anything more than a call-up.

I'd like to believe Anton Stralman can be a powerplay anchor on this team, but he's also pretty green when it comes to even strength play. Again, a lack of meaningful NHL experience could be it, but if somebody wants Stralman, he's expendable.

Frogren's grit and intensity is refreshing, but he is very replaceable.

Offense;

This is tricky. Idealy, I'd clear everybody you can out of there sans Stajan, Grabovski, Kulemin, and Mitchell. Not the greatest young core to work with, but it's the best we've got to work with right now. You can't clear everybody out just for the sake of it. I say this without knowing what could come back in return for what we've gotten rid of.

Stajan could be a decent sized gambling chip, but I think with that you lose the depth, reliability, and experience, somebody who is a real young veteran leader. I think once this team gains some ground and stability, Matt will finally be in a position with enough confidence in himself and his teammates to fill out his role on the team. He's worked his ass off in years were the desire, talent, and now expectations have been low, it would nice to see what Matt could do in a more positive situation. The only problem is Matt needs that now if he is ever going to grow into a solid 2nd line center. I don't know if his development can wait for the Leafs.

Grabovski and Kulemin need fine tuning. They need veteran line mates to give them a shake and keep them focused. Too many unforced mistakes between two skilled offensive guys. Garbo in particular could be a whiz, but he spends to much time out there colliding with teammates and forcing the fucking DROP PASS. Kulemin just needs more experience period. Some more AHL time to get used to the more heads up North American game would've been nice. Either way, they need to gain some smarts more than anything. NOT Hagman! With Hagman, they'll get some pretty cycles going, but there isn't much substance there with the three of them. If Garbo wasn't such a spaz, maybe move him to the wing and put a steady minded, play first center in Stajan to calm them down and teach them the importance of hard work over style points.

John Mitchell needs to get the fuck off the forth line for the majority of the game. What he needs now is some offensive guidance, somebody who can spark him, get him thinking in the offensive zone. This is where I like Nik Hagman, maybe some of his creativity can rub off on Mitchell.

I'm caught in the middle with Dominic Moore. I said it before, if you can keep him for the league average, you need a center with grit and heart to keep this team motivated. He's a respectable point producer this season, which ups his stock for next season, but how am I supposed to buy into Moore doing this again next year? Or the year after that and after that. Right now he's a nice pick up if you can sign him for 1.5 or 2 mil, but I can't put that much faith he'll do it again next year, especially if parts are moved significantly again in the off season. I'd like to think is Burke is taking calls about Moore seriously, because the most value I can see in Moore right now is dealing him while he's hot.

As for goaltending... I flip back and forth on Vesa so much. He goes on streaks where he looks like he's got a bum knee and a hole in his blocker, but then he'll go out and string together 4 or 5 impressive performances. He's playing with a nagging groin, surrounded by low expectations, on team that doesn't always come to play and when they do, they can be easily straight up outplayed. He hasn't been a consistent superstar, but I think it's highly fucked that people don't give Vesa the benefit of the doubt for playing on the Leafs.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Enter Blue Guy

[Reddaye]

On the heels of Bluey's massive post I'll waste people's time and post a few of my own musings to help pass the time.

I suspect Moore is on his way out this Wednesday. Seems as though his agent is asking for top six money (rumors say 2-3 million a year, five year deal). I love Moore, aside from White he's easily my favorite player on the team, but the fact is I don't think he's worth more than 1.7 million a season. Paying a guy top six money that very likely in three-four years time won't be a top six player once we get fleshed out is the sort of problems Toronto has had in the past. Jeff Finger anyone?

If we can deal him for a good return (say a second rounder or something) I say we should jump at it. We don't have a second or third round pick this year and honestly we need to stock out cupboards ASAP. Our prospect stocks aren't nearly as good as they should be because of us pissing away draft picks during trades. I'm not saying we're going to get guys that can play now, but we need guys who can play in four years. Take a look at Columbus or Los Angeles if you want an example of teams that have used the draft intelligently to set themselves up for the future.

Bluey is absolutely right about our defensive core. Schenn, White, and Kabs or Kubs. Kaberle would net the best return if we were to trade him (and with Burke hanging around Boston I could see it happening), leaving us with Kubina as our veteran guy. One thing I love about Pavel is his ability to get the puck on net. The guy has a great shot, and has really shown it.

We desperately need some forwards to fit into the mix. Mitchell is easily a bottom six guy with proper development. Grabovski needs to have an electrical ankle bracelet that shocks him every time he makes a fucking drop pass. At twenty five years of age he has some bad habits that need to be worked out. Stajan is a solid second line guy that could use some more talented line mates to help improve his own game. I'd like to keep Hagman around, although with a no trade clause moving him might be hard anyways.

Aside from that we need some grit, size, and toughness. We have no real checking line whatsoever. Brad May is a temporary fix, and honestly I wouldn't be shocked to see Mayers shopped off at some point. Our team lacks size and toughness up front and I'm hoping Burke will help fix that. I don't want to end up looking like Montreal do half the time.

EDIT: I also want to mention that I love Kubina's heart. People have whined and complained that he won't waive his NTC. Now I'm hearing people around the internet complain that he's PLAYING WELL. It's nice to see a guy who has some passion for the team and wants to succeed. It boggles my mind when I see people bitch about players playing good hockey for our team.

In summary: some people are idiots.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Drifter_2000

[Cactus Drags]

Just fucking shoot me now. The Rangers? Fucking seriously? 6?

[Gabriel]

First, it was great to see Jarome Iginla pass Fleury as the all-time leading scorer for the Calgary Flames. Awesome moment to witness.

That said, they played like a Junior A team in their own zone tonight, and deserved to lose that game. Hopefully we can bounce back on this road trip and put some more ground between us and the Canucks.

With all of the injuries recently, I was thinking it might be a good idea to acquire some depth... but I think we're fine on the back end, and I had no idea Peters and Van Der Gulik were this NHL ready. Those two guys have been awesome. If we don't make any deadline acquisitions, I will be happy with the team we have moving forward.

Hopefully though, the stories about Gary Roberts to Calgary are true. If we can get him without giving up a roster player, I'd love to have him on the team.

[nufan]

dont know if it has been said here yet

but just a big congrats to Marty Brodeur for getting his 100th NHL shutout, second in a row after coming back from an elbow injury

huge achievement for a man that will go down as one of the best goalkeepers ever in the NHL

[Toe]

Main page of TSN says Brian Burke is shooting down a rumour that the Bruins offered him their 1st and 3rd round picks plus a prospect for Tomas Kaberle.

[jrtdot]

Main page of TSN says Brian Burke is shooting down a rumour that the Bruins offered him their 1st and 3rd round picks plus a prospect for Tomas Kaberle.

honestly, if this goes down, I'd possibly take the deal, I mean if the Buds want picks they get it with this trade, also gives the Leafs a chance for someone to come up from the Marlies like Sifers or Stralman

[Toe]

Joe Colborne is 6-5 and 200 lbs, so he could fit into the Burke mold. He is playing college hockey right now. Hockey's Future ranks him above Blake Wheeler and Zach Hamill on the list of Bruin's prospects.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Toe

[Enter Blue Guy]

That would be an incredible deal. Word is Boston ranks his value higher than those two as well, so it would be a tough deal for them to pull the trigger on. But a coveted prospect on top of a 1st and 3rd would be great return.

I'm glad this bit of a news got public. Not to say the rest of the GM's wouldn't know about deals involving their players of interest, but it's out there with a public price tag on Tomas and the trade value only goes up if any other teams want to bite.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Enter Blue Guy

[Reddaye]

I personally wouldn't pull the trigger on the Colborne, 1st, and 3rd rounder for Kaberle. The word around town is that Kaberle may in fact be the hottest player on the market due to his skill and price. With Boston, and Philly being two of the bigger teams wanting his services. I'd rather get a package like Upshall, Van Riemsdyk and a 1st from Philly, which is a rumored deal.

Hopefully Burke sits back a little and maybe tries to get a bit of a bidding war going between a few teams for him. Maybe it will pay off big, or maybe it won't. That's a gamble that could be worth taking IMO. Kaberle is useful to us even if he stays, although it would be nice to get something to help the rebuild for him.

Supposedly Columbus is really pushing to pick up Antropov, but aren't willing to give a first rounder for him. They'll only give a first rounder if we throw in a player like Ian White. To this I say: fuck you Columbus, Ian White and Antropov together is worth more than a first rounder IMO.

Also Jamal Mayers has requested a trade if Burke can make one happen. Detroit are supposedly interested, which could give us a good chance to get ourselves a fourth round pick this year (we don't have a 2nd or 4th round pick this year).

All rumors of course.

EDIT: News from the horse's mouth earlier today:

At one point it was believed up to five Leafs would be heading out of town. But general manager Brian Burke yesterday all but pulled Tomas Kaberle and Ian White off the market.

"I don't expect either defenceman to move," said Burke. "I've gotten offers for Ian White which we've turned down. We're really happy with him, and unless we're blown away we plan to keep him.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Drifter_2000

[Enter Blue Guy]

I think Burke is serious in a way that if no deal materializes, there is no loss in keeping Tomas, but at the same time this has to be a tactic to up the value. Put teams in a desperation frenzy were hopefully Burke is most likely to get his monstrous return. I don't buy it at all that Kaberle is off the market, he's just tossed all deals off the table that aren't going to make him drop his socks.

You can't be a GM of a rebuilding franchise and flat out not have your best bet for a big return off the trade market. It's not like they are going to build around Kabby or anything. I'm sure Burke will be waiting until the very last second of the deadline with his finger on the trigger waiting for a mega deal.

I believe it more with White. He's just now getting a real chance with the Leafs and he's exceeded all expectations.

Also, the rumors of Ryan Smyth to Calgary have the makings of a legendary hockey soap opera. Could you imagine if Edmonton and Calgary end up meeting in the playoffs and Ryan Smyth is in red and black?

Edited March 2, 2009 by Enter Blue Guy

[Gabriel]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the rumors of Smyth to Calgary.

I'm pretty sure we don't have the cap room to bring him on without moving a roster player, and Darryl Sutter's all but said that nobody who dresses as a Calgary Flame is moving.

Sutter is a minimalist. If he can add to the team without detracting from it, he will... but he's not going to move anybody on the roster.

[Reddaye]

- Burke was just on Leafs Lunch and told them that he was offered a late second rounder for White last week but turned it down.

- He'll know if Moore is planning to resign by tonight, and that their respective offers are a million dollars apart. He won't pay a third line plumber "just south" of three million dollars, especially with the incoming cap drop.

- Essentially his stance is that either you'll overpay for his players that will help you in the playoffs, or he won't be making any deal. He'll hold onto his players until the summer, or next year, or whenever it is GMs will overpay to get them.

- Denies any talks with Boston over Kaberle.

- He currently has an offer on the table that involves two Leaf players being shipped out for a player and a prospect, but will likely reject the offer. Going to look into this.

Basically I wouldn't expect a very busy deadline Leafs fans. Burke is doing the smart thing and not just trading for the sake of trading. Our cupboards are bare and we don't have many high end pieces we can move. We need to get the best possible return for what we have on offer.