mkpunk

Lucha notes:

Delta and Guerrero Maya Jr. won the Arena Coliseo tag titles last night.

Lucky Boy is the new Venum in AAA. So rename him Venum III.

Nino de Ebano is the new Ludxor in AAA. So rename him Ludxor II.

They debuted under their new gimmicks on last nights show. They haven't announced who is who but one is shorter than Aero Star and while Lucky Boy didn't have his height listed on luchawiki, Nino de Ebano is smaller than Aerostar and therefore Ludxor (as Ludxor has the L on his mask.) Click here for the pictures

This leads to a better question as well for cutting down tag teams:

What should be the line to constitute a new tag team being added to the game?

Random "MAKE BRYAN DANIELSON [NOT! Daniel Bryan!] AND THE GIANT [NOT! The Big Show!] A TAG TEAM, THEY TEAMED ON THE RAW" teams going in for no good reason is bloating up the tag team ranks- but on the flipside, what's a good baseline to say "okay, THIS TEAM" deserves to be in the game?

We know being a tag team on an episode of Raw shouldn't immediately make two people a team. But the same problem of booking realistically to the WWE leads to an equal problem finding the line. The most natural line is things like "Well, if the two teams were the tag team champions at one point, they should be in"- since WWE will regularly throw together heavyweights for a tag title win or use the "These two guys hate each other/are fighting at the next pay-per-view...BUT THEY'RE ALSO THE TAG CHAMPS TOGETHER! How can they co-exist?" angle, then you have problems like "MAKE THE PROTOTYPE [NOT! John Cena!] AND MIKE FROM THE REAL WORLD [NOT! The Miz!] A TAG TEAM, THEY WON THE TAG TITLES IN WHAT'S BEEN ACCEPTED AS A BOTCHED PINFALL KICKOUT AND HAD THE MATCH REWORKED TO LOSE A FEW MINUTES LATER!"

With these in mind, to help cut the tag teams down, we should also decide what the line is for us to consider a tag team a TAG TEAM, then go from there. I know there's a few teams mentioned for the WWE list- and even teams I put on the list for TNA and ROH- that I would personally recognize as a valid tag team, but followed one of the rules said- so it's necessary to define it and then start cutting the list down.

I think we're above reductio ad absurdum here. Not everyone suggesting these teams are elitist smart marks who only refer to wrestlers by their indy names and type in all caps. I think you can give a little more respect than that and not build these strawman arguments.

Anyway, I don't see a problem with putting a team in if they win the tag team titles, even if it's a short reign or to further a feud. They still won the tag team titles and will be recognized as a team, unlike say, a random pairing used JUST to further a feud without any titles attached or official recognition as a team.

As for your second example, look at a team such as HBK and Austin or Austin and Dude Love. These teams were put in the game in most older scenarios, and I can't see a reason why they shouldn't be. They had tag team title reigns, and even if it was part of a larger storyline, they are at least recognized as a team in history because of holding the tag gold.

To straw-man that, one could say that Kane and Mankind and Austin and Taker should be tag teams even though they were mainly paired together for the storyline to build to SummerSlam 98. I think Kane and Mankind maybe teamed four/five times during that period and never again after that.

Imo, the rule of thumb for tag teams should be at least two months of regular teaming. Yes, this would lead to Rock and Sock being on the block but unlike HBK and Austin, Austin and The Dudester, Kane and Mankind, and Taker and Austin, that team had a last impact. Not too different from say Rated RKO. I mean seriously the Primo and Hawkins and Haas and Knox teams never really team on TV but were in the game (if anything it was on Superstars) and they lasted only a few weeks tops due to firings or regimmicks.

Thanks Bill, I understand the new set-up. I am guessing worker adds will be really done during the full and beginner months.

Renee Young is doing NXT commentary now with William Regal.

Add El Local and El Local I as an alter ego for Ricardo Rodriguez.

Add El Local II as an alter ego for Tyson Kidd

Add a tag team for Los Locales with R-Rod and Kidd with 2 exp.

I would raise El Torito's overness to 68 and his charisma to 70. He doesn't speak BUT he has that uspoken charisma. Change his primary finisher to Bullton (top rope) and Bullacanrana (top rope standing.)

Naoki Tanisaki should be renamed to Tomahawk T.T.

(He did rename himself to T-HAWK in Dragon Gate but when it comes to DGUSA, that has not been changed to thatand still is listed as Tomahawk T.T. on their guest page.)

For whenever Steve Pain is added (I gave his stats last month) I would add a new stable called Anarquia with Juventud Guerrera, Eterno and Steve Pain.

Machine Rocker should have Rolling German Suplex as His finishers.

La Mascara and Rush are now the CMLL Tag Team Champions (Bucanero and Tonga relinquished due to injury.)

I would delete CMLL's Occidente titles, they are rarely promoted (except with the spot shows.)

Mini Murder Clown should have blood relationships with Argos, Argenis, Dr. Karonte Jr., Magnus CMLL and Sin Cara. He is the brother of Argos, Argenis, Karonte, and Cara, and cousin of Magnus.

Perhaps remove LLUSA as a playable promotion in the game? It has only ran a few shows this year.

Here is a list of some of the teams that we should take a look at.

- 1-2-3 Kid and Sparkplugg

- 1-2-3 Roll On

- 2 Insane

- AC Express

- Air Devils

- AJ and CM Punk

- AJ Lee and Primo

- Aksana and Goldust

- Akuma's Army

- Alicia Fox and Maxine

- Allen and Nemeth

- American Family I and II

- American Force

- Angel and Logan

- Apoc and Alexander

- Apoc and Lilas

- Apocalypse and H.Smith

- Apocalypse and Swift

- Aries and Danielson

- Armstrong and Smothers

- Austin and Dude Love

- Austin and Price

- Austin and Undertaker

- Austin and Zbyszko

- Barreta and Tatsu

- Batista and Mysterio

- Beef and Generico

- Bernard and Nakamura

- Beth and Rosa

- Big Daddy V and M.Henry

- Big Show and Mark Henry

- Big Show and Spike

- Blackman and Friedman

- Boogeyman and Kane

- Bourne and Henry

- Bourne and Mysterio

- Bradshaw and TAKA

- Brodus Clay and Santino

- Brookside and Cannonball

- Brookside and Williams

- Burchill and Regal

- Cabana and Spears

- Cactus Jack and Bradley

- Cactus Jack and Dreamer

- Cactus Jack and Payne

- Cactus Jack and Smothers

- Cactus Jack and Sullivan

- Cage and Rhino

- Callihan and Strong

- Cantino

- Carlito and Flair

- Carlito and Trish

- Cena and B2

- Cena and HBK

- Cena and Otunga

- Cena and Redd Dogg

- Christian and H. Slater

- Christian and Matt Hardy

- CJ Parker and Marlow

- CM Punk and Darren Young

- CM Punk and Kingston

- Colossal Connection

- Commonwealth Connection

- Costantino and Prototype

- Curtis and Paul

- Cutler and Ryback

- Dallas and McGillicutty

- Daniel Bryan and Sin Cara

- Daniel Bryan and the Miz

- Danielson and Strong

- David Otunga and R-Truth

- Davina and Shazza

- Davina Rose and Mia Yim

- Deacon and G-Rilla

- D-Generation Mex I and II

- DiBiase and Hennig

- Dungeon Of Doom

- Dynamic Dudes

- DZP

- Elgin and Callihan

- Evan Bourne and Primo

- Eve and R-Truth

- FCW All-Stars

- Finlay and Bradshaw

- Finlay and McDonald

- Foley and Meanie

- Fortunate Sons

- Gabriel and Hardy

- General Management of DSW

- Giant Effecticos

- Gold Bond Mafia III, IV, VII

- Goldberg and Bret Hart

- Goldust and Hornswoggle

- Goldust and Yoshi Tatsu

- Hardcore Soldiers

- Hate Breed

- Hawkins and Andrews

- Hawkins and Slater

- HBK and Austin

- Heartland Foundation

- Henry and Hornswoggle

- Henry and Rodney Mack

- Henry and The Godfather

- Henry and Yoshi Tatsu

- HHH and Chyna

- High Dosage

- High Flyers

- Holly and Gunn

- Hollywood Incorporated

- Hosaka and Miss April

- Idol and Boris

- Jackson and Khali

- Jackson and Kozlov

- Jackson and Regal

- JBL and Grizzly

- Jericho and Barrett

- Jericho and Chyna

- Jericho and Dandy

- Jericho and Freeze

- Jericho and Gedo

- Jersey Shore Crew

- Jeter and Stevens

- Jinder Mahal and Khali

- John Cena and the Miz

- Kaitlyn and Dolph Ziggler

- Kaval and McGillicutty

- Kelly Kelly and Naomi

- Kendrick and Moxley

- Kerwin and Nemeth

- Khali and Matt Hardy

- Kingston and McGillicutty

- Kozlov and Regal

- Langston and Raines

- Langston and Rogers

- Lawler and Yankem

- Leakee and Dalton

- Leakee and Camacho

- Lovitz and Neidhart

- Maddox and Pierce

- Maddox and Victor

- Magnum Modeling Agency

- Mahal and Novak

- Maria and Ziggler

- Mark Henry and MVP

- Marlow and Uso

- Mason Ryan and CM Punk

- Michaels and Mysterio

- Miller and Gabriel

- MillionDollar Corporation

- Minnesota Stretching Crew

- Movers and Shakers

- Mr. Ass and Chyna

- Necessary Roughness

- Nemeth and Big Rob

- Nemeth and Lewington

- Nemeth and Spears

- NWO Hollywood I and II

- O'Haire and A-Train

- One Night Stand II

- O'Neil and Sandow

- Operation: Shamrock

- O'Reilly and Reeves

- Orlov and Rusev

- Orton and Cactus Jack

- Owens and Woods

- Pure Juice

- Randy Orton and Sheamus

- Rated RKO

- Regal and Enos

- Regal and Eugene

- Regal and Levesque

- Regal and Tajiri

- Rhodes and Bagwell

- Rhodes and Dirty Dick

- Rhodes and Manu

- Rhodes and Snuka

- Rico and Orton

- Rock and Y2J

- Rock N Rap

- Rollins and Steamboat

- Rotundo and Adams

- Rotundo and Logan

- Rowan and Bronson

- Royal Studs

- Royal Violence

- RVD and Hardcore

- Ryback and Sheamus

- Ryzing and Saturn

- S. Sheffield and W. Regal

- Santino and Tamina

- Sawyer and Kavana

- Secret Service

- Seth Skyfire and CM Punk

- Show-Gunns

- Sikh and Destroy

- Slocum and Kidd

- Smith and RVD

- Spirit Squad III & V

- Stevens and U-Gene

- Sting and The Giant

- Styles and Sydal

- Taker and Jones

- Teacher's Pets

- The Ascension III

- The British Militia

- The Miz and Cappotelli

- The New Dawn

- The Russians OVW

- The Skyscrapers

- Trish and Lita

- Typhoon and Lawler

- Undertaker and Rock

- Vader and Mankind

Jeeeeez. Maybe I'd say keep Teacher's Pets because they were an actual short-lived tag team that people might have recollection of. Most of the rest of these being there are shocking.

The Teacher's Pets were pretty short lived and I think made one PPV. The same can be said with The Pitbulls.

I would say Rated RKO should be kept more so than Teacher's Pets, they lasted from October 06 to about April 07 and had a brief reunion several times over the next few years.

As for D-Generation MEX, it's a problem with Mexico (more so than say Dragon Gate) where they do more partnerships in six-man tags say Ultimo Guerrero and Niebla Roja of Guerreros Laguerno team with Averno or so. The issue is these "tag teams" have teamed but not necessarily in tag matches. I'd push for some of these teams to be deleted as well.

EDIT:

I would remove 4 Live Kru 1 & 2, 3 Count 2 & 3,

Aagan Iisou 1-8

Akuma's Army

Animal Planets 1-8

Cadetes Del Espacio 1-18

DoFIXER 1-6

Familia de Tijuana 1-8

G. de la Atlantida 1-5

Grupo Alpha 1-3

Grupo Bravo 1-2

Grupo Delta 1-3

Guerreros del Infierno 2-6

Hell Demons 1-7

Italian Connection 2-14

Kolwoon 1-18

La Corporacion 1-13

La Milicia -22

All of the Los Guapos variations.

Championship Wrestling from Hollywood News:

Raise the prestige of the Hollywood Hertiage title to 35.

Raise the prestige of the Hollywood Hertiage Tag Team titles to 30 and set PPRay (Peter Avalon & Ray Rosas) as the champions.

Add a title called the MAV TV title and set it to 30 prestige with Joey Ryan as champion.

Add a title called the Santino Bros Wrestling and set it at 20 prestige with Robby Phoenix as champion.

Remove Adam Pearce from the Family Stone stable.

Add Angel Lopez to CWFH

Birthmonth: July

Age: 23

Nationality: American

Weight: Heavyweight

Wages: $5,000

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Heel

Position: Opener

Gimmick: Loner (member of The Nobodies)

Stats: 53/22/18/47/50/222/50/85/85

Primary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Add Add BC Killer to CWFH

Nationality: American

Weight: Heavyweight

Wages: $5,000

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Heel

Position: Opener

Gimmick: Monster

Stats: 58/25/17/47/50/18/50/85/85

Ticked: Menacing

Primary Finisher: Emerald Fusion (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: Body Disposal (Impact)

Add Brian Weston to CWFH

Birthmonth: April

Age: 29

Nationality; American

Weight: Lightweight

Wage: $5,000

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Heel

Position: Opener

Gimmick: Loner (Member of the Nobodies)

Stats: 35/58/34/30/58/27/53/85/85

Primary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Alter Ego: Ryan Weston

Add Che Cabrerra to CWFH

Birthmonth: Unknown

Age: 24? (graduated high school in 06)

Nationality; American

Weight: Heavyweight

Wage: $5,000

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Heel

Position: Lower Midcard

Gimmick: Armed Forces

Stats: 42/55/48/30/58/27/58/85/85

Primary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Alter Ego: Andres Cabrera

Rename Joey Kaos Munoz to Voodoo Kaos

Add Joey Ryan to CWFH

Add Josh Rozay to CWFH

Birthmonth: January

Age: 26

Nationality: American

Weight: lightweight

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Heel

Position: Opener

Manager: Stu Stone

Gimmick: Cocky

Stats: 32/60/48/33/62/26/55/75/80

Primary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Remove Kahagas

Add Kayam to CWFH

Add Leo Blaze to CWFH

Birthmonth: August

Age: 28

Nationality: American

Weight: lightweight

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Heel

Position: Lower Midcard

Manager: Stu Stone

Gimmick: Cocky

Stats: 32/66/45/33/62/30/55/75/80

Primary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Add Pinky to CWFH

Nationality: American

Weight: Heavyweight

Wages: $5,000

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Heel

Position: Opener

Gimmick: Loner (member of The Nobodies)

Stats: 53/20/17/47/50/222/50/85/85

Primary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Ricky Mandel's secondary finisher should be a submission hold.

Add Robby Phoenix to CWFH

Nationality; American

Weight: Lightweight

Wage: $5,000

Employer: CWFH

Alignment: Face

Position: Opener

Gimmick: Blue Chipper

Stats: 37/68/34/30/58/27/53/85/85

Trainer Ticked

Primary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Secondary Finisher: DDT (Impact)

Add Sasha Darevko to CWF-H.

That's a very valid point, however, does there need to be 3,000 wrestlers available for one backyard to global promotion?

3000 is probably excessive, but it still needs to be a decent number even if just to allow for a bit of rostering to your own style rather than just 'the ten guys I can afford'. Not to mention you need those 20/30/40 over guys as you work up the pyramid.

I think applying logic to this cull would be more effort than its worth really, sounds worse than when I have to manually remove all the terrible mid 00s indie album tracks from my iTunes.

Well, for one startup logic point:

Using the "Ryan Wood" example- he's not a Non-Wrestler in the game [ so this example should be reprieved at the moment], but he's in at 10 over. 10 overness is a fair cutoff line to start with.

Using under 10 over Non-Wrestlers in-game, you get 69 wrestlers:

Anthony Franco, Axl Law, Big John O'Malley, Bino Gambino, BPA Barry, Brandon Hill, Brandon Prophet, Brian the Guppie, Brittany Summers, Caffeine Bean, Chance Romance, Cheex, Christine LeMaster, Corey Blaze, Destiny, Destiny WSU, Dino Winwood, DJ Skittlez, Dr. Hurtz, Duke Durrango, Echelon, Eric Extreme, Fire Angel, Frank Cullen, Fugo Fugo Yumeji, Fuuka, Fuyuki Takahashi, Gemini, Hiroshi Nagao, Ice Cold, Jacklyn Hyde, Jane Blond, Jay Charismo, Jenelle Sinclair, Jennifer Bancalum, Jimmy Turner, John Howarth, John Johnson, Jolly Roger, Katsuhiko Nagata, Kazunobu Nakamura, Kriss Sprules, Kristy Kiss, Lupin Matsutani, Mack Johnson, Mason Hunter, Melissa Stripes, Mike Sato, Morty Lipschitz, Naomi Susan, Raj Ghosh, Razor Rivera, Rob Dimension, Rush Margera, Ruy Batello, Shayla, Shinsuke Z Yamagasa, Smash Bradley, Sofy, Steve the Teacher, Takashi Uwano, Tara Bush, Tatsushi Yamaguchi, The Disciplinarian, Tommy Combat, Tommy Knoxville, Tyler Mane, Vince Vicallo, Wayne.

Cutting down the list to find the most necessary names there:

Eliminating the big ones, the ones currently working for a promotion in the game, you reprieve: Corey Blaze [ECWA], John Johnson [AW], Katsuhiko Nagata [New Japan] and Morty Lipschitz [CWFH].

Eliminate the people who have Announcer ticked [the most reasonable Non-Wrestlers to keep so they can be color commentators], you reprieve Brian the Guppie and Mack Johnson.

Eliminate the people who had recognizable runs for some major, recognizable promotion at some point, you reprieve: Anthony Franco/Smash Bradley [ROH], Cheex [TNA], DJ Skittlez/Jolly Roger [CHIKARA], Ice Cold/Jacklyn Hyde/Jane Blond/The Disciplinarian [WOW], Jay Charismo [iWS], and Tyler Mane [WCW]

Eliminate the person most of EWB would whine if we don't get a chance to have him clobbered in the game, we keep Kriss Sprules

And if you say, "Well, we need commissioners/backstage interviewers for BY2G? Fair enough. Using a fair cutoff point of 60 charisma [reasonable for a good Non-Wrestling role] in, you can reprieve: Axl Law, BPA Barry, Brandon Prophet, Brittany Summers, Lupin Matsutani, Razor Rivera, Rush Margera, Sofy, Tara Bush, and Vince Vicallo.

Take those reprieves out of the way, you're still left with 41 non-wrestling under 10-over people:

Big John O'Malley, Brandon Hill, Bino Gambino, Caffeine Bean, Chance Romance, Christine LeMaster, Destiny, Destiny WSU, Dino Winwood, Dr. Hurtz, Duke Durrango, Echelon, Eric Extreme, Fire Angel, Frank Cullen, Fugo Fugo Yumeji, Fuuka, Fuyuki Takahashi, Gemini, Hiroshi Nagao, Jenelle Sinclair, Jennifer Bancalum, Jimmy Turner, John Howarth, Kazunobu Nakamura, Kristy Kiss, Mason Hunter, Melissa Stripes, Mike Sato, Naomi Susan, Raj Ghosh, Rob Dimension, Ruy Batello, Shayla, Shinsuke Z Yamagasa, Steve the Teacher, Takashi Uwano, Tatsushi Yamaguchi, Tommy Combat, Tommy Knoxville, Wayne.

Wouldn't that be a fair start?

Dino Winwood was the PWG commissioner in about 2006/7 and was the manager of Aerial Express before they broke up. Not sure what he does now.

I don't think many people really care about the Mexican or Japanese guys (I would include Australian and European but I know there are a good number who play the games.) Hell many people don't even use American indy guys outside of ROH, DGUSA and maybe PWG guys.

Been hearing things about TNA being up for sale, idk if this can be affected in game but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway just in case.

I don't think it can really be changed unless we put no owner in charge and let the game pick one. Personally I don't believe the rumor, but even if it was true, I would wait until after it was sold to make any change.

Nikki Roxx I saw is announcing her retirement after her December 6th match for Lucky Promotions Wrestling Show. Guess its a little early to make her a non-worker, but something to keep track of for future reference.

I have a question about the game? How should this AJ Styles storyline work in EWR? He is taking bookings for other promotions (AAA for one), and defending the TNA title. I know he will be back in TNA at some point, but should we give him an open contract? I can't remember, is it possible to be unsackable in one company and have an open contract (work for other feds)? If so I think that would be a good temporary solution until he returns full time to TNA.

It's like WWE when they would send out say Albert to an indy in the 90's/early 2000's. They do one show or so for an indy and then go elsewhere. Keep him under a written deal.

I'm not sure about playability problems - it's been years since I last played EWR at all - but it can take an age to load if there's too much data in there, and when half that data is expendable, then why keep it?

Which brings me to something else that really needs addressing; relationships. It's another thing that constantly gets added, or at least suggested, to EWR stats updates with very little regard to the actual gameplay mechanics. Just because Wrestler X said he liked Wrestler Y in an interview doesn't warrant a friendship relationship, and not everybody who's ever appeared on Art Of Wrestling should have a friendship relationship with Colt Cabana. It should entirely come down to what these relationships affect in the game, and how feasible they are.

Not to mention that, in running monthly updates, there's always the chance of running up a backlog of "relationships" that are completely false. A dirtsheet mentions that two guys don't like each other, it's added to the database. Six months later, it's a complete non-issue, and was probably never true in the first place, yet the relationship is still there.

Perfect case in point Homicide and Dan Maff. Maff and Cide had a true legit falling out in March 2005 and basically blackballed him with any promoter who worked with Homicide. Maff and Cide eventually got on speaking terms (longer than six months) when Cide couldn't work JAPW as often due to TNA commitments and brought back Maff into JAPW. However this wasn't public knowledge for along time (thanks to the recent event at an ICW show where they had a Mega Powers Handshake moment.)

Some of the relationships fall and aren't as good as they once was and some stay strong. CM Punk for instance is pretty loyal and didn't need to say put over Chris Hero, Raven and Samoa Joe on his Best in the World dvd but he did. Why because he is true to his friends. He insisted Joey Mercury and Luke Gallows being in the SES for the same reason rather than some random guys for the same reason. Mike Quackenbush is another case who is loyal to his students (taking from the Japanese logic.) Now say Sami Zayn (for example) is not as loyal to his all of friends.

To me the problem is you can run any side of this spectrum so for every Quackenbush there is a true loyalty, there is another trainer who isn't.

The hell does that mean?

Basically unlike Punk who is annoyed when friends get fired, Zayn's like oh well, it's no big deal. Of course, I don't know if it's true or not.

Wait I thought Zayn is Canadian. Generico is in Mexico with Nacho Libre.

I'm not sure about playability problems - it's been years since I last played EWR at all - but it can take an age to load if there's too much data in there, and when half that data is expendable, then why keep it?

Which brings me to something else that really needs addressing; relationships. It's another thing that constantly gets added, or at least suggested, to EWR stats updates with very little regard to the actual gameplay mechanics. Just because Wrestler X said he liked Wrestler Y in an interview doesn't warrant a friendship relationship, and not everybody who's ever appeared on Art Of Wrestling should have a friendship relationship with Colt Cabana. It should entirely come down to what these relationships affect in the game, and how feasible they are.

Not to mention that, in running monthly updates, there's always the chance of running up a backlog of "relationships" that are completely false. A dirtsheet mentions that two guys don't like each other, it's added to the database. Six months later, it's a complete non-issue, and was probably never true in the first place, yet the relationship is still there.

Perfect case in point Homicide and Dan Maff. Maff and Cide had a true legit falling out in March 2005 and basically blackballed him with any promoter who worked with Homicide. Maff and Cide eventually got on speaking terms (longer than six months) when Cide couldn't work JAPW as often due to TNA commitments and brought back Maff into JAPW. However this wasn't public knowledge for along time (thanks to the recent event at an ICW show where they had a Mega Powers Handshake moment.)

Some of the relationships fall and aren't as good as they once was and some stay strong. CM Punk for instance is pretty loyal and didn't need to say put over Chris Hero, Raven and Samoa Joe on his Best in the World dvd but he did. Why because he is true to his friends. He insisted Joey Mercury and Luke Gallows being in the SES for the same reason rather than some random guys for the same reason. Mike Quackenbush is another case who is loyal to his students (taking from the Japanese logic.) Now say Sami Zayn (for example) is not as loyal to his all of friends.

To me the problem is you can run any side of this spectrum so for every Quackenbush there is a true loyalty, there is another trainer who isn't.

Remove Pornstar Juan, Joey Fitzmorris and Steve, both are already in the data under other names. Remove Iron Sheep, it was a 1 time gimmick.

This list have all announced their retirement or cannot wrestle due to injury.

Sunny War Cloud

Pierre Carl Ouelette

Moohamed

Max Boyer (came back but got reinjured, may come back again though)

Kenny the Bastard (Will likely never walk again, let alone wrestle)

21st Century Fox

Jayson Cypress

Holly Hilton

Elsa Bangz (at minimum remove Love relation with Beef Wellington, he is married).

The following I do not believe have wrestled in years and may need to be removed

Brian the Guppie (I would 100% remove him).

Vane

Viking

The Hacker

The Arsenal

Pat Hamilton

Josianne the Pussycat

Hardcore Ninja #1

Hardcore Ninja #2

Exess

Dave Tripps

Danyah

Bang Bang Pete

James Champagne

Osirus

Ryan Wood

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Squared Circle Wrestling is a strange one, since it needs a massive overhaul or to be swapped out completely. If it is to be kept...

Remove: Bang Bang Pete, Crazzy Steve, Derek Wylde, El Tornado, Jake O'Reilly, James Champagne, Jayson Cypress, Pepper Parks, RJ City, Robbie McAllister, Turcan Celik, Sebastian Suave

Add: Louis Lyndon, Flip Kendrick, El Sombra/Marcus Marquez and Black Serpent

This would change the roster size from 37 to 25 if my count is right. A lot of guys they use would not have enough contracts or need to be created.

The only worker I see should be removed entirely Kenny The Bastard due to the nature of his injury (I don't think the others would not be in the same boat and fine as non-workers but I could be wrong) and the double entries you mentioned if they have the other entry already in the game. This is because they "could return in some form" (think of Lance Storm returning part-time in 2012.)

Edit: update for Osaka Pro (credit to Osaka Hurricane):

Remove Hideyoshi, Kaijin Habu Okoto, Kugga, Masamune, MiracleMan

Add Quiet Storm to Osaka Pro

Add Mii Hibiscus and Miyuki Matsuyama as alter egos for Apple Miyuki

Add Shingen and Genaki as an alter ego for Hideyoshi (rename him to Shingen)

Add Orochi as an alter ego for MIYAWAKI

Rename Kaijin Habu Okoto to HUB

Move Magnitude Kishiwada from Dragon Gate to Big Japan for his touring commitment

Add friendship between Magnitude Kishiwada and Gamma

I remember someone used to be able to hex edit or modify the names of the Japanese touring promotions somehow. I can't remember exactly, but I'm fairly sure someone edited their names to fit a different game. So, I'm wondering if anyone would know how to do that here so you can change the names? IIRC, you could only edit the names to the same number of characters as the original names (For example, you couldn't change Pride FC to Shootfighting as it has more characters).

Just a thought... or the notepad thing might work, and it'd probably be easier to edit in case of changes.

I had a copy of this at one point and I remember Toryumon was Dragon Gate and one of the promotions was K-Dojo.

I think the Hex idea works but I am not sure how anyone can do it.

I noticed this while looking at DGUSA,

YAMATO should be a heel. He is still cocky though.

Genki Horiguchi is now the Brave Gate Champion.

Masato Yoshino is now the Dream Gate Champion.

This thread in a nutshell:

In all seriousness: SUWA should have MAYBACH Taniguchi Jr. as an alter ego and Haijme Ohara should have MAYBACH SUWA Jr. as an alter ego.

Also, slightly embarrassed that it seems like whenever I post in here it precipitates a flame-war >_>

I think you just called out something others didn't notice about the cagematch based updates. I don't agree with it being the be all, end all but it is better than nothing. The shooter war was going on before you put your two cents in because some people thought football should count.

I think Wrestling New Classic could work for the defunct BattleArts,

• Akira
• Gillett (rename to Yo-Hey)
• Makoto
• Osamu Nishimura
• Ray (Lin Byron)
• Star Buck
• Syuri
• Tajiri
• Yoshiaki Yago

No idea for FMW (besides BJW,hardcore has disappeared)

Maybe DDT could work for the defunct WMF

• Anotnio Honda
• Daisuke Sasaki
• Danshoku Dino
• El Samurai
• Harashima
• Kenny Omega
• Kudo
• Makoto Oishi
• Masa Takanashi
• Masao Inoue
• Michael Nakazawa
• Mikami
• Sanshiro Takagi
• Tanomusaku Toba
• Tomomitsu Matsunaga
• Touru Owashi
• Yuji Hino

Wrestle-1 could work for World-Japan

Contracted talent:

• Hiroshi Yamato
• KAI
• Kaz Hayashi
• Keiji Mutoh
• Kohei Sato (on loan from Zero 1)
• Masakatsu Funaki
• Masayuki Kono
• Minoru Fujita
• Ryouji Sai (on loan from Zero 1)
• Seiya Sanada
• Shuji Kondo
• Koji Kanemoto
• MAZADA
• NOSAWA Rongai
• Rene Dupree (left All Japan)
• Zodaic (Aaron Aguilera)

Other notes, Daisuke Harada, Haijme Ohara and SUWA should all be set to touring commitments to NOAH.

But in all seriousness, this "argument" (if you can even call it that... more like misunderstanding by the other people) reminds me of people who think higher selling means people "oversell" like how higher stiffness means people are "too stiff", even though the game clearly works with 100 selling being optimal selling. Just an example of a repeated misinterpretation/misconstruing of the in-game mechanics.

But yeah... only guys who would realistically compete for a UFC or Pride or Bellator type MMA promotion should have shooting ticked. Gotcha. What is Pride FC in the game now as far as a touring commitment? What promotion is it being used for? Sorry if this has been answered already.

Pride, WMF, World Japan and BattleArts aren't being used because the computer will still go and set the rosters to their typical situation as oppose to if World Japan was Wrestle-One (IMO not a bad idea but still.)

My opinion on where this thread has ended up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yvnLCxo-m8

Both Bro Mans overness should be raised.

Paul Heyman charisma should be 100.

The Wyatts(Rowan and Harper) can have some stats raised since the WWE officials are high on their wrestling skills.

What stats would be affected. IMO Harper is pretty fine as is.

Are The Bro Mans' REALLY that over? I get raising Jessie higher but that's all.

Here is the truth on Cagematch. What they do, is they take data from promotions roster pages and straight copy and paste it. Which is fine, they provide a lot of infomation. However, the fact of the matter is that this information gets outdated.

Take even me for example, they took my information from a website that hasn't been active in over 2 years. It lists my finisher as a move I haven't won a match with in over 2 years. Eddie Osborne did used to weigh 211 lbs, now he is probably closer to 250 at last I saw him a few months ago. Of course I am not trying to make a big deal out of 1 guys weight, I am trying to point out as a whole that relying on cagematch is not the best idea, especially when it comes to someone you are not the slightest bit familiar with. And telling me I'm wrong because the internet says just further proves it since my source is being in the same room as them.

If we are trying to make the data more accurate, maybe changes shouldn't be suggested because you google searched someone you don't know.

Cagematch isn't the be all, end all by any means but sometimes it is the only place we can get info we can get on guys. (Though they still don't have a profile for Thunder who has been in CMLL for almost a year now.

Like say Brian Lee (Japan) he was a Toryumon 2006 era guy. (The Mexico only group that went to Canada's UWA in 2007.) He hasn't appeared in any results since the UWA. He also has a luchawiki entry.

And seriously dude, as pointed out the Shooting mechanic does absoltely zero in game. As in, you could have everybody checked or nobody checked and it won't ever make a single difference in the game ever. Despite what you believe or do not believe counts as shooting, none of it matters to EWR post Pride FC closing, therefore is pointless to even suggest or talk about.

Also, by your standards, check Shooting for Player Uno because we were taught how to shoot wrestle and he can beat me in it 9 times out of 10.

Pride maybe "closed" (so was World Japan and now BattleArts) but it is still a promotion for the game (if we had the code for it, perhaps we could have fixed it by now.) I think all we can do is strip those rosters and let the game fill in the non global committed wrestlers who fit the criteria. I think the Pride guys, UFC guys, Strikeforce guys, Bellator guys (ect), the New Japan guys who dabbled in it, and other properly MMA trained guys like Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly.

Thank you, all I wanted was a clear answer about BattleArts. I wasn't getting it. I appreciate it. Sorry if I was being an idiot. I agree many who were listed in the UFC were straw men who have no business being considered. A Daniel Bryan however was considering to be a grappler after his wrestling career is over http://www.chicagonow.com/mma-disputed/2012/04/from-vegan-to-mma-daniel-bryan/. CM Punk however would consider an MMA fight or two http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1041359-wwe-champion-cm-punk-talks-ufc-connection-interest-in-a-fight-and-much-more.

2.) It's because it's meant soley to control who gets offered a contract to fight with Pride, a MMA promotion for MMA fighters, not pro-wrestlers --> hence it's meant for martial artists only. The 'shooting tick' exists solely so the game engine knows who could realistically end up there, precisely to avoid the absurd situation of having Eric Bischoff fighting Tito Ortiz in a legit MMA fight.

So yeah, I disagree that there is a greater than 0% chance Eric Bischoff will ever fight in the UFC, I mean come on - the guy is like 55 at least? And it's probably been how long since his Karate background was relevant? 30 years? Like you can't be serious? New Jack? Hardcore Holly?

I chose those people specifically because they are absurd and should never be considered. If you think any of thoese people are likely to end up on a UFC card anytime in the future, I have to question whether or not you watch the UFC or know what MMA is? When was the last time UFC signed a 50+ year old who probably learned Karate at a local school when he was like a teenager? Or an unfit former garbage wrestler with no MMA training whatsoever?

One person's "absurd" is not. The original UFC format was taking the best fighters from one discipline against another. Dan Severn could fight Royce Gracie to see if a martial artist or a wrestler is a better athlete.

K-1 and PRIDE were more refined (due to the issues early UFC faced with being "barbaric" as US Senator of Arizona John McCain put it) but there were still kickboxers who would fight with other disciplines. I am not saying every worker should have shooting ability ticked but it shouldn't be a short few who have participated in UFC and PRIDE. Why not include toughman in there? Toughman was virtually the same as Brawl For All.

This seems like you're just trolling me now...

And you seem to be continually ducking my question about BattleArts no matter how many times I ask does it rely on shooting technique like Pride does. Unless there is a Japanese Touring group criteria document that I am missing, I have never heard how say Toryumon (now Dragon Gate) gets one guy and another promotion say BattleArts gets another while PRIDE gets someone else entirely.

Does BattleArts actually not base it off of shooting? If it does guys who wrestled for UWF, UWF-I, New Japan in 04 and that should be included as well as those with MMA training and hooking. (EDIT: The BattleArts/"Worked" MMA style was never addressed other than it is not a "shoot.")

I still don't get why it is called shooting ability if it is meant for solely for martial arts. I mean everyone in wrestling accepts shoot as legit. That is why those like Mike Barton and Hardcore Holly who participated in Brawl For All have it as well as boxers (Konnan, Marc Mero, Baron Corbin), amateur wrestlers, Hart Dungeon trainees and those like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan who trained with legit MMA training camps. (Now obviously we cannot change the tick as the coding to the game was lost years ago but there is a language issue because shooting can include hooking and not just going into a legit fight.)

Out of the workers from matches 1-7, I can only expect Hardcore Holly and maybe New Jack and Eric Bischoff to legitmately be possibilities on the UFC card. Hardcore because he is a legitamate tough guy and Eric Bischoff because he thinks he's tough (plus his Karate experience.) As for New Jack, he is legit tough and just plain crazy enough to (if he can get past testing.)

Remove Masada from DG-USA, I don;t remember the last time he actually appeared for them.

The same with Reby Sky.

DGUSA/EVOLVE updates:

Remove Alex Reynolds (last appeared in June 2012)

Add Biff Busick Lower Midcard Face? (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove Brian Kendrick (only appeared on the January and Mania shows)

Remove Cheech (last appeared in June 2012)

Remove Flip Kendrick (last appeared in September 2011)

Add Harlem Bravado Lower Midcard Tweener (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove John Silver (last appeared in June 2012)

Add Lancelot Bravado Lower Midcard Tweener (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove Louis Lyndon (last appeared in September 2011)

Add Mark Angelosetti Lower Midcard Cocky Heel (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove Mike Cruz (last appeared in June 2012)

Remove Pinkie Sanchez (last appeared in September 2012)

Remove Player Dos (last appeared for the Mania shows)

Remove Player Uno (last appeared for the Mania shows)

Add a stable with Akira Tozawa, Masato Yoshino, Ricochet, SHINGO and Uhaa Nation Named Monster Express

Guys like Punk, Bryan and Richards though trained in grappling though. Punk trained with Rener Gracie (which is the sweatshirt he wears to the ring.) Bryan trained with Xtreme Couture before signing his WWE deal in 2009. Richards is trained in Ju-Jitsu. All three COULD do a form of MMA. Have they liked the men you mentioned, no.

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

I think the situation is pretty clear - ultimately this is not about peoples level or type of training - it's about whether or not they would be likely to turn up in Pride FC (if the company was still around), so lets say the UFC, as a substitute.

That's it, I think it just confuses the matter to bring up other things like so-and-so did this Gracie workshop, knowing MMA techniques is very different to being at the level required to be signed by Pride [the 'shoot' stat in a nut-shell]... and being signed by Pride (UFC?) is the only thing we need to care about when making this determination. That is literally the only relevant criteria for this stat.

Can I see any of those guys competing in the Pride (or UFC) in future? No.

Do I think even if given that it's unlikely, that they would 'qualify' to compete in the UFC in some hypothetical universe? No. Knowing MMA techniques is a different universe to being signed by Pride FC to compete in a real fight. These people dedicated years to training not a few hours, or as a hobby.

As I stated in my last post, 'MMA inspired' training isn't sufficient - otherwise virtually anyone could have 'shoot' ticked, it's not about how many BJJ workshops you attended under a Gracie, have you competed in Pride? Would Pride sign you in future? No? No tick.

You have the wrong idea if you think it's about level of training, shooting ability etc.

'Shoot' = Would Pride FC sign them to fight?

'Shoot' /=/ Can this person 'shoot'?

I understand that there a hundreds of guys with the box ticked already, and looking at this list only quickly you can see that people in the past have applied the second definition, and not the first (thinking it was a measure of MMA knowledge rather than understanding its purpose in game). There are too many people on that list to mention here that obviously would never work for Pride or be offered a contract to fight there, these people should be obvious. Basically the way the stat has been used in the past runs against its intention in the game, it came to be used in a certain way, but that doesn't mean we should keep using it incorrectly.

I mean, Pride FC doesn't even sign female fighters, and there are dozens of women on that list - it's pretty clear the stat has been used wrong and people don't understand its purpose or what should qualify someone to have it. Just because a lot of people have it that shouldn't, doesn't mean we should continue to hand it out on false grounds.

I could see guys like Kyle O'Reilly, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan and Davey Richards going to a promotion like BATTLEARTS, UWF or UWF-I which are more wrestling inspired "shoot" fighting.

Shoot in the game is for shoot fight experience which could include shoot training due to groups like Battlearts (not sure if they go off shooting ability ticked.

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

2 Cold Scorpio

Aaron Aguilera

Adam Brown

Adam Watt

Adrian Serrano

Adrianna

AJ Styles

Akebono (sumo)

Akiiko Ito

Akira Maeda

Al Snow

Alberto Del Rio

Alex Pain

Alexander Kozlov (Sambo)

Alexander Otsuka

Alexis Bliss

Amara Suloev

American Kickboxer II

Amy Dumas (Ju-Jitsu)

Amy Lee

Andy Leavine

Andy Sumner (Sambo)

Angel Orsini

Angela Fong

Annie Social

Anthony Henry

April Davids

Arashi

Atsushi Aoki

Atsushi Sawada

Ayako Sato

Akyut

Bas Rutten (I know he has shot somewhere)

Bas Van Kunder

Batista

Bete Noire

Beth Phoenix (amateur)

Big Vito

Bill Goldberg

Bitsadze Tariel

Blade Mathews

Blue Wolf (was in NJPW during the F1inspired era)

Bob Backlund (amaetur shooter)

Bob Sapp

Bobby Fish (amaetur MMA fighter)

Bobby Lashley

Booker T

Brandon Gatson

Brandon Groom

Brandon Hill

Brandon Parker

Bravehart

Bray Wyatt

Brent Albright

Brian Black

Brian Gamble (kickboxer)

Brian Johnston

Brock Lesnar

Brock Singleton

Brute Issei

Bryan Alvarez

Buff Bagwell

BUSHI

Butterbean

Cal Bishop (amateur)

Caprice Coleman

Captain New Japan

Carl Contini

Cat Power

Chad Baxter

Charlie Haas (amateur)

Chasyn Rance

Checkmate

Chilly Willy

Chris Colen

Chris Dickinson

Chris Ewing

CM Punk

Cody Rhodes (amateur)

Crossbones

Curt Daniels

Daichi Hashimoto

Daisuke Ikeda

Dalis La Caribena (kickboxer)

Dan Bobish

Dan Severn

Dana Lee

D'Angelo Dinero (boxer)

Danger

Daniel Bryan

Daniel Puder

Dann Bondauce (boxer)

Danny Inferno

Danshoku Dino

Davey Richards (Ju-Jitso)

David Starr

Deano

Denton Blackwell (amateur)

Destroyer

Dino Carter

Disco Fury

Dolph Ziggler (amateur)

Don Frye

Doovan Ruddick

Douglas Willaims

Drew Haskins

Drew Johnson

Dustin Corino

Earl Huff

Egan Inoue

Elix Skipper

Enson Inoue

Eric Bischoff (karate)

Eric Mastrocola

Erik Hammer

Erin Bray

Ernest Miller (karate)

Ethan Page

Evan Bourne (amateur)

Evan Gelistico

Evan Karagias

Eve Torres (teaches Gracie Ju-Jitso)

Fady Madani

Famous B

Fang Suzuki

Finlay

Flex Freeman (amateur)

Frank Trigg

Fuego (I would remove this)

Fuuka

Gary Goodridge

Gary Jay

Genba Hirayanagi

Genichiro Tenryu

Geza Kalman Jr.

Gigante Silva

Glacier

GOKU-DO (Pat Tanaka)

Great Sasuke

Guivi Sissaouri

Hade Vansen

Hailey Hatred

Haku

Hannibal (amateur)

Hardcore Holly

Harry Smith (trained in MMA)

Hawaiian Lion

Hawk Younkins

Heath Slater

Heddi Karaoui (kickboxer)

Heidenreich

Henry Godwinn

Hikaru

Hirooki Goto

Hiroshi Hase

Hiroshi Tanahasi

Hiroshi Yamato

Hirotaka Yokoi

Histeria III (MMA guy)

Ian Decay

Ice Man

Imani Lee

Ivanna B. Eighten

Ivelisse Velez (kickboxer?)

J Bronson (boxer/amateur?)

Jack Bull

Jaden

Jaka

Jake O'Reilly

James Ewing

James Maritato (UWF-I)

James Storm

James Wallace

Jane Blond

Jason Jordan (amateur)

J-Biggs

Jaqueline Moore (kickboxer)

JD Maverick

Jeff Lewis Neal

Jemma Palmer

Jenny jodin

Jeremiah Riggs (part of one of the Ultimate Fighter seasons and fought with Bellator)

Jeremy Young

Jerry Flynn (kickboxer)

Jesse Neal

Jessica Hatch

Jewells Malone

Jinsei Shinzaki

Jody Fleisch

John Alessio

John Balsamo

John Bradshaw Layfield

John Dixson

Johnny Phere

Joker

Jon Rekon

Jon Ryan

Jonathan Coachman

Josh Barnett

josianne The Pussycat

Joy Giovanni

Juice Jennings

Jun Akiyama

Jushin Liger

Justice Smith

Justin Sane

Jutaro Nakao

Kafu

KAI

Kane

Karsten Kretschmer

Kassius Ono

Katey Harvey

Katsuhiko Nagata

Katsuhiko Nakamjima (some form of martial arts)

Katusuyori Shibata

Kazunari Murakami

Kazuhi Sakuraba

KazuyukiFujita

KC Spinelli

Kiichi Oba

Keiji Mutoh

Ken Shamrock

Kendall Skye

Kendo Kashin

Kenn Doane

Kenneth Cameron

Kenou (kickboxer)

Kenshin Chikano (kickboxer)

Kensuke Sasaki

Kevin Northcutt

Kevin Sullivan

Kid Kash (MmA)

Kiyoshi tamura

Kohei Sato

Koji Kanemoto

Koji Kitao (sumo)

Konnan (boxer)

Kurt Angle (amateur)

KUSHIDA

Kyle Maverick

Kyle O'Reilly

Kyle Semenoff

Kyoko Inoue

Kyoko Kimura

Lady Diamond Dee

Lamar Braxton Porter

Larry Zbyszko

Lash LeRoux

Latash Marzolla

LeilaniKai

Lince Dorado

Lionheart BCW

Lisa Fury

Low Ki (worked a very strike heavy offense)

Lucky tHURTeen

Lucy Clayden

Lyguila

Madison Eagles

Madusa (kickboxer)

Magnificent Mimi

Manabu Hara

Manabu Nakanishi

Marc Mero (boxer)

Mark Coleman

Marshall Von Erich

Marty Jannetty

Maryse Ouellet

Masa Takanashi

Masaaki Mochizuki (strike heavy offense)

Masaktsu Funaki

Masamitsu Kochi

Masanobu Fuchi

Masahi Aoyagi (UWF-I)

Masato (who?)

Masayuki Kono

Masayuki Naruse

Mason Ryan

Matt Barela

Matt haffari

Maven Bentley

Maxx Payne

Maybach Taniguchi

Megumi Yabushita

Meiko Satomura

Metal Master (shoot wrestler Chad Collyer)

MiaYim

Michiko Omukai

Michiyoshi Ohara

Mick Foley (amateur)

Mickael Zaki

Mike Barton (boxer)

Mike Kehner

Mike Quackenbush

Mike Sharona

Mike Tolar

Mileena D-Bomb

Minoru Suzuki

Minoru Tanaka

Minowaman

Mirko Filipovic

Misterioso

Mitsuhiro Matsunaga

Mitsuya Nagai

Mizuki Endo

Mo Sexton

Mojo Rawley

Mortimer Plumtree

Mr. Anderson

Mr. Strongko

MTX

Muhammed Lawal

Munenori Sawa

Murat Bosporus

Murilo Bustamante

Namajague

Naomici Marufuji

Naoya Ogawa

Natalya Neidhart

Nathan Jones

Neil Faith

New Jack

New York Knockout Nikki

Nick Logan

Nick Mitchell

Nick Nelson

Nikita Fink

Nobujko Takada

Nobutaka Araya

Nosferatu

Nyla Rose

ODB

Oliver Grey

Oliver John

Oman Tortuga

Omar Akbar

One Man Gang

Orlando Jordan

Pat Buck

Patrick G.E.I.L. Schulz

Paul Lombardi

Paul London (amateur)

Paul Roma

Perry Saturn

Pete Kaasnova

Pierre Carl Ouelette

Pimp Fatha (boxer/kickboxer)

Pippa L'Vinn

Poison Appollo

Prince Devitt

Princess Of Power

Quinson Valentino

Quintin "Rampage" Jackson

Race Steele

Rachel Summerlyn

Randy OrtonRaze

Reno

Reuben De Jong

Rhys Youngblood

Rich Ortiz

Richie Steamboat (amateur wrestler)

Rick Mathis

Rick Steiner (amateur)

Rick Vain

Rico Bushido

Riki Choshu

Rob Van Dam

Roddy Piper (boxer)

Rodney Mack

Ron Harris

Ron Mathis

Ron Waterman

Rosa Mendes

Ross Von Erich

Rowdy Red

Rush Margera

Russian Bruiser Anya (MMA)

Ryan Genesis

Ryoji Sai

Ryuji Goto

Ryuji Hijikata

RyushiYanagisawa

Ryusuke Taguchi

Saar Bokstein

Sadyst

Sam Greco

Sam Shields

Sami Callihan

Samoa Joe (should be)

Santino Marella (martial arts gym)

Sara Del Rey

Sara Jay

Sarah Stock

Sasha Banks

Sasori

Satoru Sayama

Satoshi Kajiwara

Savanah Riley

Savio Vega

Sawyer Fulton

Scott Steiner (amateur)

Sean McCully

Sean O'Haire

SeiyaSnada

Sensei

Seth Shai

Sexxxy Eddy

Shad Gaspard (boxer)

Shane Helms

Shane Strickland

Shaun Tempers

Shawn Riddik

Shawn Stasiak

Shelton Benjamin (amateur)

Shin Ku

Shinobu Kanadori

Shinsuke Nakamura

Sid abulous

Silvie Silver

Simply Luscious

Sinn Bodhi

Siren Monroe

Skandalo

Snake Brody

Solo

Sonny Onno (kickboxer)

Sonoko Kato

Spence Slater

Spencer Khrone

Steve Blackman

Steve Lewington

Sumie Sakai

Super Boy

Super Strong Machine

Super Tiger II

Supreme Lee Great

Susan Mortan

SUSHI

Suwama

Sybil Starr

Sylvester leFort

Sylvester Terkay

Syuri (kickboxer)

TAC

Tado Yasuda

TaDarius Thomas (capoeria)

Taichi Ishikari

Taiyo Kea

Tajiri (marital arts)

TAKA Michinoku

Takkao Inoue

Takashi Echigo

Takashi Iizuka

Takashi Sugiura

Takehiro Murahama

Takeshi Rikio

Taku Anzawa

Takuma Sano (Naoki Sano)

Tama Tonga

Tamon Honda (amateur)

Tank

Tank Abbott

Tanny Mouse

Tanomusaku Toba

Tara

TARU

Tarn Terrell

Tatushito Takaiwa

Tatsuo Nakano

Tatsuhi Yamaguchi

Tatsutoshi Goto

Taz (should be)

The Amazing Darkstone

The Barbarian

The Great Khali

The Great Tetsujin

The iron Shiek

The Nighthawk

The Stro

The Zebra Kid

Tiana Ringer

Tiger Ali Singh

Tiger Mask IV

Tim Donst

Tito Ortiz

TOA

Togi Makabe

Tom Howard

Tommy Cobat

Tommy End

Tommy Force

Tommy Tayloy

Tomohiko Hashimoto

Tony Atlas

Tony Jones

Tony Kozina

Toru Yano

Toshiaki Kawada

Tracy Smothers

Travis Tyler (amateur)

Tristin Hayze

Troy Bond

Truitt Fields

Tsubasa Kuragaki

Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

Tyrone Evans (boxer)

Ulf Herman

Ultimate Fighter Caruso

Undertaker (MMA enthusiast)

Villano III

Virgil (boxer)

Volk Han

Vordell Walker

Wade Barrett (boxer)

Warpath

Wataru Sakata

Wes Brisco (amateur)

Wesna Busic

William Regal

Xavier

Xavier Woods

X-Cal

Yoji Anjoh

Yoshi Tatsu

Yoshiaki Yago

Yoshiaki Yatsu

YOSHI-HASHI

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yuji Hino

Yuji Nagata (shoot fought in New Japan)

Yujiro Takahashi (amateur)

Yumiko Hotta

Yutaka Yoshi

Zumbi

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

To be honest, even then you have missed a bunch of people with really obvious MMA experience.

I could have missed more without double checking. It was late when I did that list last night.

Saying that we need to look at who UFC or Pride would sign are the only ones who should have it ticked makes no sense... In 2004, NOBODY would or could have predicted Brock Lesnar signing with UFC, let alone becoming champ. I mean he has not had a bazillion training hours, he just happens to be a big guy trained in Amateur Wrestling that used his size to his advantage. Same goes with Bobby Lashley, Batista... Hell Pride signed Akebono, a man who again doesn't have the training you seem to be putting on a pedastal.

Do I think the people who have stats need to be looked at? Yea, for sure... I'm pretty certain that Annie Social has it ticked for Oil Wrestling... I could be wrong, but I don't think shes trained to shoot.

That being said, anyone with legit fighting training/experience should have it ticked; thats MMA, Boxing, Amateur Wrestling, Kickboxing, BJJ, etc.

Trish Stratus was/is training in Muay Thai, had an amateur fight and at one point contemplated moving into MMA. Tell me UFC wouldnt sign her if she asked. Amazing Kong also trained for MMA while in Japan. As far as I'm concerned, they should have it ticked.

NOT football, american or otherwise. Thats dumb.

I think this is the best argument for what SHOULD be included for shooting ability. Though I would add the Harts due to their obvious experience in Dungeon.

There's also the former BattleArts who is a more worked version of PRIDE. I am not sure if they require shooting as well. New Japan also did PRIDE/F-1 inspired wrestling too. Whether it was the 2004 stuff with Sapp and Barnett as well as the UWF invasion.

The issue is we have had guys like Daniel Bryan, Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly who also have dabbled in MMA inspired training as well who could do MMA but they have not entered into a fight.

RE: The Bati Bati style or UWF-style, yes a lot of those guys would definitely have 'shoot' ticked as they have competed in legitimate MMA fights that were not supposed to be worked. The list of Japanese guys who need the tick is much longer for the reasons you stated, and just due to the different culture of puroresu, and its storied relationship with MMA.

Some Japanese wrestlers who have competed in Pride for example:

Alexander Otsuka

Hirotaka Yokoi

Katsushisa Fuji

Kazunari Murakami

Kazushi Sakuraba

Kazuyuki Fujita

Kiyoshi Tamura

Michiyoshi Ohara

Naoki Sano

Naoya Ogawa

Nobuhiko Takada

Tadao Yasuda

Wataru Sakata

Kendo Kashin

Enson Inoue

Yoshiaki Yatsu

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yoji Ano

Takashi Sugiura

------------------------------

None of the american guys you mentioned there should have 'shoot' ticked though.

As I was trying to establish in my previous post (to paraphrase Brock Lesnar) there is a meaningful difference between doing a BJJ class at your local gym (or the Inoki Gym in the case of American Dragon), and training to compete in MMA, or otherwise training at the skill and intensity level required to compete in MMA. The majority of wrestlers in the game world do not meet this criteria, and in general very few non-Japanese workers will.

If it's still not clear enough who qualifies for this 'tick' then consider this question in regards to the worker you have in mind... could you see them competing in the UFC?

If no, they shouldn't get a tick.

Again there are some rare exceptions for guys like Kurt Angle, who are extremely high level practitioners in a related sport; but these people really are rare. To suggest that someone should get the 'shoot' tick because they have done 'MMA inspired' training is like saying anyone who studies Karate, or BJJ in their spare time is likely to get signed to fight for Pride FC... that's not just unrealistic, it's preposterous.

Pride FC was a big big organisation in it's time, equivalent to the UFC, to tour with Pride FC should be an exclusive and rare trait in any worker in the database (as it is in real life). I don't see the point in trying to sneak in as many workers with that trait as possible, it's not a game feature that is designed to be controversial. In the vast majority of cases the 'tick' should be on people who have already competed in MMA (or Pride), the guys with no history of MMA fighting should be a small minority of the cohort with the 'tick'.

Guys like Punk, Bryan and Richards though trained in grappling though. Punk trained with Rener Gracie (which is the sweatshirt he wears to the ring.) Bryan trained with Xtreme Couture before signing his WWE deal in 2009. Richards is trained in Ju-Jitsu. All three COULD do a form of MMA. Have they liked the men you mentioned, no.

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

2 Cold Scorpio

Aaron Aguilera

Adam Brown

Adam Watt

Adrian Serrano

Adrianna

AJ Styles

Akebono (sumo)

Akiiko Ito

Akira Maeda

Al Snow

Alberto Del Rio

Alex Pain

Alexander Kozlov (Sambo)

Alexander Otsuka

Alexis Bliss

Amara Suloev

American Kickboxer II

Amy Dumas (Ju-Jitsu)

Amy Lee

Andy Leavine

Andy Sumner (Sambo)

Angel Orsini

Angela Fong

Annie Social

Anthony Henry

April Davids

Arashi

Atsushi Aoki

Atsushi Sawada

Ayako Sato

Akyut

Bas Rutten (I know he has shot somewhere)

Bas Van Kunder

Batista

Bete Noire

Beth Phoenix (amateur)

Big Vito

Bill Goldberg

Bitsadze Tariel

Blade Mathews

Blue Wolf (was in NJPW during the F1inspired era)

Bob Backlund (amaetur shooter)

Bob Sapp

Bobby Fish (amaetur MMA fighter)

Bobby Lashley

Booker T

Brandon Gatson

Brandon Groom

Brandon Hill

Brandon Parker

Bravehart

Bray Wyatt

Brent Albright

Brian Black

Brian Gamble (kickboxer)

Brian Johnston

Brock Lesnar

Brock Singleton

Brute Issei

Bryan Alvarez

Buff Bagwell

BUSHI

Butterbean

Cal Bishop (amateur)

Caprice Coleman

Captain New Japan

Carl Contini

Cat Power

Chad Baxter

Charlie Haas (amateur)

Chasyn Rance

Checkmate

Chilly Willy

Chris Colen

Chris Dickinson

Chris Ewing

CM Punk

Cody Rhodes (amateur)

Crossbones

Curt Daniels

Daichi Hashimoto

Daisuke Ikeda

Dalis La Caribena (kickboxer)

Dan Bobish

Dan Severn

Dana Lee

D'Angelo Dinero (boxer)

Danger

Daniel Bryan

Daniel Puder

Dann Bondauce (boxer)

Danny Inferno

Danshoku Dino

Davey Richards (Ju-Jitso)

David Starr

Deano

Denton Blackwell (amateur)

Destroyer

Dino Carter

Disco Fury

Dolph Ziggler (amateur)

Don Frye

Doovan Ruddick

Douglas Willaims

Drew Haskins

Drew Johnson

Dustin Corino

Earl Huff

Egan Inoue

Elix Skipper

Enson Inoue

Eric Bischoff (karate)

Eric Mastrocola

Erik Hammer

Erin Bray

Ernest Miller (karate)

Ethan Page

Evan Bourne (amateur)

Evan Gelistico

Evan Karagias

Eve Torres (teaches Gracie Ju-Jitso)

Fady Madani

Famous B

Fang Suzuki

Finlay

Flex Freeman (amateur)

Frank Trigg

Fuego (I would remove this)

Fuuka

Gary Goodridge

Gary Jay

Genba Hirayanagi

Genichiro Tenryu

Geza Kalman Jr.

Gigante Silva

Glacier

GOKU-DO (Pat Tanaka)

Great Sasuke

Guivi Sissaouri

Hade Vansen

Hailey Hatred

Haku

Hannibal (amateur)

Hardcore Holly

Harry Smith (trained in MMA)

Hawaiian Lion

Hawk Younkins

Heath Slater

Heddi Karaoui (kickboxer)

Heidenreich

Henry Godwinn

Hikaru

Hirooki Goto

Hiroshi Hase

Hiroshi Tanahasi

Hiroshi Yamato

Hirotaka Yokoi

Histeria III (MMA guy)

Ian Decay

Ice Man

Imani Lee

Ivanna B. Eighten

Ivelisse Velez (kickboxer?)

J Bronson (boxer/amateur?)

Jack Bull

Jaden

Jaka

Jake O'Reilly

James Ewing

James Maritato (UWF-I)

James Storm

James Wallace

Jane Blond

Jason Jordan (amateur)

J-Biggs

Jaqueline Moore (kickboxer)

JD Maverick

Jeff Lewis Neal

Jemma Palmer

Jenny jodin

Jeremiah Riggs (part of one of the Ultimate Fighter seasons and fought with Bellator)

Jeremy Young

Jerry Flynn (kickboxer)

Jesse Neal

Jessica Hatch

Jewells Malone

Jinsei Shinzaki

Jody Fleisch

John Alessio

John Balsamo

John Bradshaw Layfield

John Dixson

Johnny Phere

Joker

Jon Rekon

Jon Ryan

Jonathan Coachman

Josh Barnett

josianne The Pussycat

Joy Giovanni

Juice Jennings

Jun Akiyama

Jushin Liger

Justice Smith

Justin Sane

Jutaro Nakao

Kafu

KAI

Kane

Karsten Kretschmer

Kassius Ono

Katey Harvey

Katsuhiko Nagata

Katsuhiko Nakamjima (some form of martial arts)

Katusuyori Shibata

Kazunari Murakami

Kazuhi Sakuraba

KazuyukiFujita

KC Spinelli

Kiichi Oba

Keiji Mutoh

Ken Shamrock

Kendall Skye

Kendo Kashin

Kenn Doane

Kenneth Cameron

Kenou (kickboxer)

Kenshin Chikano (kickboxer)

Kensuke Sasaki

Kevin Northcutt

Kevin Sullivan

Kid Kash (MmA)

Kiyoshi tamura

Kohei Sato

Koji Kanemoto

Koji Kitao (sumo)

Konnan (boxer)

Kurt Angle (amateur)

KUSHIDA

Kyle Maverick

Kyle O'Reilly

Kyle Semenoff

Kyoko Inoue

Kyoko Kimura

Lady Diamond Dee

Lamar Braxton Porter

Larry Zbyszko

Lash LeRoux

Latash Marzolla

LeilaniKai

Lince Dorado

Lionheart BCW

Lisa Fury

Low Ki (worked a very strike heavy offense)

Lucky tHURTeen

Lucy Clayden

Lyguila

Madison Eagles

Madusa (kickboxer)

Magnificent Mimi

Manabu Hara

Manabu Nakanishi

Marc Mero (boxer)

Mark Coleman

Marshall Von Erich

Marty Jannetty

Maryse Ouellet

Masa Takanashi

Masaaki Mochizuki (strike heavy offense)

Masaktsu Funaki

Masamitsu Kochi

Masanobu Fuchi

Masahi Aoyagi (UWF-I)

Masato (who?)

Masayuki Kono

Masayuki Naruse

Mason Ryan

Matt Barela

Matt haffari

Maven Bentley

Maxx Payne

Maybach Taniguchi

Megumi Yabushita

Meiko Satomura

Metal Master (shoot wrestler Chad Collyer)

MiaYim

Michiko Omukai

Michiyoshi Ohara

Mick Foley (amateur)

Mickael Zaki

Mike Barton (boxer)

Mike Kehner

Mike Quackenbush

Mike Sharona

Mike Tolar

Mileena D-Bomb

Minoru Suzuki

Minoru Tanaka

Minowaman

Mirko Filipovic

Misterioso

Mitsuhiro Matsunaga

Mitsuya Nagai

Mizuki Endo

Mo Sexton

Mojo Rawley

Mortimer Plumtree

Mr. Anderson

Mr. Strongko

MTX

Muhammed Lawal

Munenori Sawa

Murat Bosporus

Murilo Bustamante

Namajague

Naomici Marufuji

Naoya Ogawa

Natalya Neidhart

Nathan Jones

Neil Faith

New Jack

New York Knockout Nikki

Nick Logan

Nick Mitchell

Nick Nelson

Nikita Fink

Nobujko Takada

Nobutaka Araya

Nosferatu

Nyla Rose

ODB

Oliver Grey

Oliver John

Oman Tortuga

Omar Akbar

One Man Gang

Orlando Jordan

Pat Buck

Patrick G.E.I.L. Schulz

Paul Lombardi

Paul London (amateur)

Paul Roma

Perry Saturn

Pete Kaasnova

Pierre Carl Ouelette

Pimp Fatha (boxer/kickboxer)

Pippa L'Vinn

Poison Appollo

Prince Devitt

Princess Of Power

Quinson Valentino

Quintin "Rampage" Jackson

Race Steele

Rachel Summerlyn

Randy OrtonRaze

Reno

Reuben De Jong

Rhys Youngblood

Rich Ortiz

Richie Steamboat (amateur wrestler)

Rick Mathis

Rick Steiner (amateur)

Rick Vain

Rico Bushido

Riki Choshu

Rob Van Dam

Roddy Piper (boxer)

Rodney Mack

Ron Harris

Ron Mathis

Ron Waterman

Rosa Mendes

Ross Von Erich

Rowdy Red

Rush Margera

Russian Bruiser Anya (MMA)

Ryan Genesis

Ryoji Sai

Ryuji Goto

Ryuji Hijikata

RyushiYanagisawa

Ryusuke Taguchi

Saar Bokstein

Sadyst

Sam Greco

Sam Shields

Sami Callihan

Samoa Joe (should be)

Santino Marella (martial arts gym)

Sara Del Rey

Sara Jay

Sarah Stock

Sasha Banks

Sasori

Satoru Sayama

Satoshi Kajiwara

Savanah Riley

Savio Vega

Sawyer Fulton

Scott Steiner (amateur)

Sean McCully

Sean O'Haire

SeiyaSnada

Sensei

Seth Shai

Sexxxy Eddy

Shad Gaspard (boxer)

Shane Helms

Shane Strickland

Shaun Tempers

Shawn Riddik

Shawn Stasiak

Shelton Benjamin (amateur)

Shin Ku

Shinobu Kanadori

Shinsuke Nakamura

Sid abulous

Silvie Silver

Simply Luscious

Sinn Bodhi

Siren Monroe

Skandalo

Snake Brody

Solo

Sonny Onno (kickboxer)

Sonoko Kato

Spence Slater

Spencer Khrone

Steve Blackman

Steve Lewington

Sumie Sakai

Super Boy

Super Strong Machine

Super Tiger II

Supreme Lee Great

Susan Mortan

SUSHI

Suwama

Sybil Starr

Sylvester leFort

Sylvester Terkay

Syuri (kickboxer)

TAC

Tado Yasuda

TaDarius Thomas (capoeria)

Taichi Ishikari

Taiyo Kea

Tajiri (marital arts)

TAKA Michinoku

Takkao Inoue

Takashi Echigo

Takashi Iizuka

Takashi Sugiura

Takehiro Murahama

Takeshi Rikio

Taku Anzawa

Takuma Sano (Naoki Sano)

Tama Tonga

Tamon Honda (amateur)

Tank

Tank Abbott

Tanny Mouse

Tanomusaku Toba

Tara

TARU

Tarn Terrell

Tatushito Takaiwa

Tatsuo Nakano

Tatsuhi Yamaguchi

Tatsutoshi Goto

Taz (should be)

The Amazing Darkstone

The Barbarian

The Great Khali

The Great Tetsujin

The iron Shiek

The Nighthawk

The Stro

The Zebra Kid

Tiana Ringer

Tiger Ali Singh

Tiger Mask IV

Tim Donst

Tito Ortiz

TOA

Togi Makabe

Tom Howard

Tommy Cobat

Tommy End

Tommy Force

Tommy Tayloy

Tomohiko Hashimoto

Tony Atlas

Tony Jones

Tony Kozina

Toru Yano

Toshiaki Kawada

Tracy Smothers

Travis Tyler (amateur)

Tristin Hayze

Troy Bond

Truitt Fields

Tsubasa Kuragaki

Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

Tyrone Evans (boxer)

Ulf Herman

Ultimate Fighter Caruso

Undertaker (MMA enthusiast)

Villano III

Virgil (boxer)

Volk Han

Vordell Walker

Wade Barrett (boxer)

Warpath

Wataru Sakata

Wes Brisco (amateur)

Wesna Busic

William Regal

Xavier

Xavier Woods

X-Cal

Yoji Anjoh

Yoshi Tatsu

Yoshiaki Yago

Yoshiaki Yatsu

YOSHI-HASHI

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yuji Hino

Yuji Nagata (shoot fought in New Japan)

Yujiro Takahashi (amateur)

Yumiko Hotta

Yutaka Yoshi

Zumbi

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.