The EWB Book Club

[Dingle]

So, are we actually gonna get around to discussing this?

[Bigal]

I was hoping so >_>

[Dingle]

Well, someone start a topic of discussion and I'll join in.

And lets not mention silver crosses, breasts and masturbation. That was a weird fantasy. Although the wooden cross thing made sense.

[Guest Ringmaster]

Let's do this university discussion style then.

Did you like/hate the book and why so?

Go Jouzy

[Dingle]

I like it because it's quite a deep account of someone needing to cling to being someone so badly that they create this entire world and dream that they are actually going back in time and becoming the Saviour of the world.

[Guest Ringmaster]

I was surprised by the book actually. I very, very rarely read sci-fi because usually it's written in a very adventuresque narrative tone that absolutely destroy my entertainment of the book, but this was written in a modernist kind of way, which I found terrific. He actually dabbled in post-modernism too, with the strange paragraph structure.

It's actually why I liked it I'd say. That and the story wasn't the average time-travel or sci-fi crap where you have some guy just wander about and have some insipid adventure, it legitimately had a purpose and it was thought-provoking to some extent.

Though I will admit, it did feel a bit like Moorcock wrote the book simply to be controversial. All that rape wasn't needed. It probably really made Catholics unhappy, especially the whole "It's a lie" thing at the end.

But all in all, cool book.

[Bigal]

I'd imagine the whole shagging Mary thing was much more offensive to Catholics than anything else >_>

[Mick]

I recently read Sandworms of Dune, the supposed finale of Frank Herbert's Dune saga.

For those unfamiliar, I'll elaborate.

Frank Herbert wrote 6 Dune stories; Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God-Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, and Chapterhouse: Dune. He died shortly after finishing Chapterhouse.

In the mid 90s, his son, Brian, found a bank where Frank had kept the notes and outline to what was simply known as Dune 7. Brian and noted sci-fi author Kevin J. Anderson got together and began making the outline into a novel. Ah, but wait....first they decided to write six Dune novels serving as prequels to the original dune; the first three taking place roughly 40 to 15 years before the first novel and the last 3 taking place 10,000 years before hand, with a new novel being released each year. Finally, they announced that Dune 7 would be released as two books; Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune.

I read Hunters of Dune and really enjoyed it. They brought forth some interesting ideas, and they didn't really on the material that they had included in the prequels. It was a decent book, and from some of the things I recalled from the previous novels, it really felt like they were doing the story the way Frank Herbert intended.

Then came Sandworms of Dune.....and what a disaster it was.

The plot began strong with what Hunters was, and then just became a tremendous, bad rollercoaster filled with way too imaginative ideas.

Take for example the character of Baron Harkonnen, the main villian in the original Dune and a secondary villian in Children of Dune. Now, the Baron is gay, he's a paedo, but Frank Herbert only gives subtle hints at this. The way he's written in Sandworms is more like that of one of those skinhead prisoners waiting for you in the shower. Not good.

So....if you like Dune....if you really want to know how it ends....read the book, and check it out from a library. The book is a huge dissapointment, I'd rather watch a documentary on how they make cheese then to ever subject myself to Sandworms of Dune again. I'm furious at how Brian and Kevin J. Anderson have just ridden Dune to money, I wish to christ that they had stuck with just plain Dune 7 instead of giving people that have been waiting 21 years this shit.

On top of that, the fucks are writing 3 more prequels....*sigh*

Just my thoughts.

[Bigal]

...How...why...?

[Guest Ringmaster]

Teacher, teacher, Mick didn't do his homework!

[Mick]

Teacher, teacher, Mick didn't do his homework!

She's well aware of that, David.

She was helping me......study.....

[Dingle]

tut, Mick would ruin it >_>.

Anyways, Mary being shagged didn't bother me at all. I thought it was quite funny, but obvious to see mary depcited as a whore, ironically compared to her image in the bible. Also, at the crucifixion, I assume the woman he thought was monica was Mary Magdaline or whatever she's called.

However, I have to bring up quite a good point, something I believe NBT discussed elsewhere. Karl was forced to become the saviour of the world, but at the cost of no one ever knowing what he did. He would go down in history as Jesus, but when it came to present day he would ht the boy he always was. And whilst the paradoxes confuse me and stuff, it is quite the sacrifice to give up his life in such a way that no one would ever REALLY know that it happened.

[Guest Ringmaster]

I don't really think he cared if anyone knew, this was more a case of wanting to keep up the illusion that Jesus was the messiah. He knew nothing besides the notion of a real Jesus that he just had to slip into the role. If people realized the nature of his sacrifice, then they would have realized the huge sham that was religion.

What I find interesting though, is that based on the strange time-travel continuum that he's created, he's pretty much condemned to go back in time endlessly, get crucified, then get born some 1950 years in the future. It's like there's a legitimate resurrection somewhere in there, though its only purpose is to keep up a lie.

[Dingle]

Meh, that "resurrection" idea would not work because the bible was set in stone before 1950 wasn't it ?

[Guest Ringmaster]

What's the thing after the resurrection then? The one where people are waiting for Jesus to come back nowadays? That's the one I meant

[Dingle]

Oh right, a modern day ressurection. I'll let you off with that then >_>.

Oh and touching on the sex thing, it seems as though Karl Glogauer is acting in the way he did, simply because he is this "unlikely messiah" and never really would ever be expected to do anything of the sorts. He is sleeping around, he has made nothing of his life and no one really respects him.

I was mentioning the crucifixion being the ultimate sacrifice and how he would never be known for it, because throughout the book he is always looking for attention for what he does. He always wanted someones attention, as shown by a continued part; when Karl turns the gas on and lies in front of the fire. He just wants attention and it's why it's so strange to see the complete opposite with the sacrifice of his life just to make sure Christianity actually occured.

Also, I find it weird that Bigal doesn't discuss this book moreso.

[Guest Ringmaster]

Plus, Karl is a huge, huge loser. He gets picked on, and everyone hates him. In his mind, crucification probably makes him a hero and the thought that someone would finally look up to him (well, they wouldn't know it was him, but they'd be worshiping something he did) probably helped him go through with it.

Edited August 30, 2007 by Ringmaster

[Dingle]

Oh and I just remembered, there is a good foreshadowing of the crucifixion at the beginning of the book. The boys tie him up and he can't manage it, well he can, but he pretends to be unconscious and well, he probably couldn't handle being put in that position. But when he is older, and realises that it HAS to be done, he overcomes his fear of being the center of attention (Which I mean in a very loose way, because whilst he craves it, he also seems to be afraid of it, like a lot of people are.) and he doesn't say too much whilst being crucified.