Trekkies!

[ClaRK! Kent]

So, I've always liked Star Trek, watched it since I was a kid (TNG was on the telly when I was about 4 or 5) and generally been a fan, although I don't think I'd class myself as a Trekkie because I don't know what a warp plasma manifold is, and I don't understand what a deflector dish does (apart from function as deux ex machina) etc. As I got older, I didn't watch Trek as much, although I watched all of the movies and enjoyed them, with the exception of Nemesis and The Final Frontier, which were pants.

Anyway, recently I've had some free time, and I've been watching lots of old episodes again. TNG, DS9, Enterprise, Voyager, etc (Enterprise gets a lot of bad press but probably only deserves half of it, and mostly only if you're massively concerned by continuity flaws) and I've also been reading about it, because I'm like that with TV shows I'm interested in, I always feel that the episode is only half of the info or something. Basically, I've read from a lot of sources that Voyager gets a lot of stick from Trekkies and fans for some reason, and I'd like to know why - of all the series, it's probably my overall favourite of the bunch (although TNG provides my favourite individual episodes, it must be said, and DS9 is also fairly awesome) and unlike most things where I have a kind of 'I-see-your-point-but-I-disagree' attitude, I literally cannot understand why people don't like Voyager.

Okay, sure, season 4 was very Seven of Nine-centric, to the detriment of other characters, but this was rectified later on with each of the main cast getting a 'hero episode' at least once during the last few seasons, and in fairness Seven had 3 years' worth of character development to catch up on very quickly, not to mention that the entire format of the original series in the 1960s was based around Kirk and Spock, with McCoy and Scotty occasionally popping up to be interesting. Chekov barely developed in 2 years, and Sulu didn't do anything interesting until he got promoted to Captain, so I don't see how the 'oh, it became all about Seven' argument stands - especially if you want to talk about her operating as a "walking deus ex machina" as I saw her described in one article, because she was nowhere near as bad as Data on TNG for that, and a much more interesting character to boot.

So yeah - why do people, Trekkies, etc dislike Voyager? Seriously, it's fucking awesome television and only nitpicking or "oh well, TNG had Patrick Stewart in it"-style bashing seem to have any real basis from what I've seen.

Asplain.

EDIT: Also, it had easily the best theme tune so... yeah. That helped.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Sephiroth Clone

[Toe]

Voyager was okay. Not great, not horrible, just okay. It has some really bad episodes balanced by some interesting ones (like when the Hirogen capture the ship), but some of the characters are almost unbearable and I don't care if Seven used to be a drone, how can a ship smaller then the Enterprise-D take on the Borg so often and be so successful?!

I just believe DS9 and TNG are better. I don't compare any of them to the original because TV was different back then. I haven't watched all of Enterprise, but I hate some of the storylines - I don't care about continuity errors, I just want plots that I can enjoy.

[K]

Voyager was Star Treks version of the WCW/WWF Invasion.

It was supposed to be fucking awesome, it was everything we wanted from Star Trek, but they pussied out and went somewhere else with it.

Let me pitch it to you, the way it was pitched to us.

Right, we've got this new idea for a Science Fiction show, we're going to take this group of rebels, who have been fighting 'The Man' for years, throw them into the deepest darkest regions of the galaxy, with no way to return... then, we're going to throw the good guys out there as well. So you've got these two ships and two crews who have been programmed to take each other out, stuck together out in the most hostile environment you can imagine. Trying to get home. Absolutely the only way the two of them can survive, is by them working together. Imagine the tension. No-one would trust anyone, it would be so edgy you could butter your toast with it. We could have backstabbings, switching of allegiances, mis/distrust, the whole shabang. It's gonna be darker than the back of your closet. Maybe cap the whole thing off with the biggest coup d'état you've ever seen in your life. Oh, and since we're so far away from absolutely anything the audience can relate to, we pretty much have a free pass to do whatever we want.

Oh Hey, one more thing. Did I mention that we're gonna slap the mother fucking Star Trek logo on this bitch and cash in, ka-ching, we're gonna make a billion dollars I swear down.

So now, we have this fucking awesome Sci-fi show, in the Star Trek universe, you know what we're gonna do then? We're gonna bring back the Borg. Remember them? The most cold blooded killers in the universe. These guys are the Terminator, Robocop and Adolfo De Jesus Constanzo all rolled into one. A single Borg ship took out 39 of star fleets best vessels and killed 11,300 a few years ago on TNG, this new crew is fucked. I'm not even joking, we are going to give this ship a beating. Best part is? They're so far from home, they're gonna have to get nasty to stock their ship. Think outside the Star Fleet book, break a few rules along the way. See how those pretty boy Starfleet nerds do when they're thrown into the desert with just a knife and their wits. Mother fuckers better realise.

Damn I'm good, I need a goddamn pay rise

And you see, that sounds awesome.

Only that's not what we got.

After a few episodes, the writers seemed to forget that the crew wasn't supposed to trust each other. There were about two episodes where the Marquis and Star Fleet bumped heads and that was it. (One of which was Learning Curves which sucked a dick) They forgot that the ship couldn't get new shuttles and new photon torpedoes, and they used them at will. They forgot that the Borg were almost invincible and Voyager took them out like fish in a barrel. They forgot about the rule breakings and backstabbings and Janeway did exactly what Picard would have done in every single situation. (Actually, I honestly believe that Picard was edgier than Janeway) They forgot all the cool shit that made Voyager special, and it became generic space show and eventually just turned into the Janeway and Seven, let's explorer humanity show. Boring.

I'll admit, Voyager had some cool episodes, and some great ideas. Year of Hell (Shouldn't have hit reset though), Scorpion, Message in a Bottle, Prototype, Scientific Method (Took two shit TNG episodes and made it good) I could go on and on, but there was just so much utter, utter, utter shit and filler and wasted opportunities that so many people, including myself got disheartened and went back to DS9, which to be honest is pretty much the epitome, not only of Star Trek, but Science Fiction in general (And they weren't even on a fucking space ship!)

A few random thoughts for the end.

The Chute had a lot of potential and should have been longer and darker and more violent.

Macrocosm should have been a two parter.

The Swarm should have been a major villain and not a one time thing.

Year of Hell should not have reset (I understand that it would have had to be re-written.. it should have been)

Hunters/Prey/Killing Game = Awesome.

In summary, Voyager should have been the Shield of Science Fiction. Edgy, On the Cusp, Dark, a little Uncomfortable, doing whatever it takes to survive. Instead, it was just another background science fiction show.

Tuvok, I understand

You are a Vulcan man.

You have just gone without

For seven years about.

Paris, please find a way

To load a hypospray.

I will give you the sign.

Just aim for his behind.

Hormones are raging,

Synapses blazing.

It's all so veeeery

Illogical.

Illogical.

[GhostMachine]

I'm actually a Voyager fan; my least favorite series (not counting ENTERPRISE, which is a given) is DS9.

The biggest problem with Voyager is that Janeway was even more or a deus ex machina than Kirk, if that's even possible. The series finale - which absolutely sucked in more ways I than I can count; Future Janeway helping them get back sooner pretty much changes the time line and alters everything we saw in the future of that finale, and we wait all that time for them get back to Earth, and all we see is the ship landing and that's it?!?! - is a perfect example of that.

The Maquis crewmembers butting heads with everyone would have gotten old fast, and its not like the Maquis are major evil bad guys who should have been thrown in the brig and forgotten about; they were more or less rebels fighting against the Cardassians because the Federation let them colonize places they should have.

Granted, if they ever did a Trek movie using characters from various series as the crew on a new ship or at least uniting for a mission, I think the only people from Voyager I'd want to see involved would be the Doctor and Harry Kim, *maybe* Seven of Nine, with anyone else just making a brief appearance. (You'd think at some point, after being on Earth\in normal Federation space, that Seven of Nine would probably NOT be going by that name anymore)

For the record:

Trekker = normal Star Trek fan. ie, someone who just enjoys the shows and movies. Knows their stuff but isn't a walking encyclopedia of all things Trek. Unlike......

Trekkie = obsessed geek fan who can tell you the name and # of every episode, name every Starfleet ship including their designation, etc, speaks fluent Klingon and likely dresses up at conventions. (ie, see the classic William Shatner `get a life' SNL sketch)

Edited July 27, 2008 by GhostMachine

[ClaRK! Kent]

Surely they can replicate photon torpedoes? And they did build a new shuttle twice during the run of the series (although the Delta Flyer mk. II's random appearance one episode after the mk. I had been destroyed with no exposition was a bit odd) so I think it's implied that they start running out of shit.

Not to mention that the whole point of the Borg in Voyager was that they'd been brought in because everyone hated the Kazon and stuff, they were an attempt to spike ratings and such. I can kind of understand why Voyager kept being able to take them out - it's like the way the Klingons were treated in TNG and DS9 as opposed to the original series. Still a threat if they were angry, still a 'red alert on sight' deal, but once you've survived enough encounters, gathered enough data, and worked out enough of their strategy, then they become a bit less threatening and a bit less incincible because you know how they operate. Janeway's strength, against the Borg, is that she always came up with some batshit insane plan involving letting herself be assimilated or nicking a trans-warp coil, and the Borg couldn't predict her actions as they were driven by instinct and emotion.

I'd agree with Keith that there were a lot of wasted opportunities, lots of episodes that could have been better than they were (basically anything devoted to Tuvok with the exception of Flashback) and I suppose the Seven of Nine-centric episodes did mean you got a bit less Chakotay, Kim etc, but then again this was no different to any of the other Treks. Data completely overtook TNG (to the point where Patrick Stewart was considering leaving in Best of Both Worlds) and you barely got an episode for Crusher, Troi or Geordi after the first 3 years. Even DS9, which was built on the ensemble cast, started giving way less time to Kira, O'Brien etc when the last three years all became all about Sisko, Bashir being in section 31, the obligatory "lol, Ferengi" episode, and every other storyline being about Odo.

So yeah, Voyager wasn't perfect, and perhaps it had its flaws, but DS9 and TNG had them too, so I don't get why Voyager gets the hate and people fall over themselves to fellate DS9.

[Xand]

I enjoyed watching Voyager. I loved Robert Picardo as the Doctor (and basically including him in the majority of the episodes was always a good plan) but as Keith said - they really missed out on a lot of potential and they had some annoying and boring characters like Neelix, Kes (who's voice actually has the same effect as nails on a blackboard) and Chakotay (zzzzzz - I though leaders of militant rebellions were supposed to be dynamic and charasmatic?). They really didn't just take the plunge and go for a more serialised approach. They started to take these on as the show developed; and there were some great episodes (The Hirogen remain the cause for the best episodes in my opinion), and despite the ending - Year of Hell was riveting viewing.

Some people hate Voyager with a militant passion, which is something I don't get. If there's an episode on I'll still watch it even if miss annoying-as-hell (Kes) has a main role in it. And it still is my favourite Star Trek show.

[Timmoru Suzuki]

Maybe the reason that Voyager gets picked on for it's flaws a little more then TNG and DS9 is that TNG and DS9 had a little something to hide those flaws?

What I mean is, aside from having probably the best single episodes in Trek (and maybe eveb sc-fi) - there's a LONG list of awesome TNG episodes, you still had Jean-Luc FUCKING Picard and Data, two of the best trek characters ever and you can add Riker and Worf and Gerodi to the damn good trek characters list to fall back on. Even then, with so many great episodes, even in a dull one, the chances of their being a great episode next time were sky high.

With DS9, it had it's dull two series, then you got something that was a new concept to Trek at the time - STORY ARCS. CHARATCER DEVELOPMENT. Also, THIS was the dark sci-fi show. This is the dark shit where people died, and battles were lost, and people changed sides. Running next to this, Voyager was a veritable tea-party, with some nice cake. You had some incredible long term arcs, a bunch of kick-ass moments, and even when you weren't getting any of the above, you still had Sisko, Odo and O'Brien who are great, oh and Quark. And Bashier if he's being abused my O'Brien. Oh, and the best supporting character list in Trek. Gul Dukat and Garak rock. I quite like Eddington too, for some strange reason. Oh, yeah, and WEYOUN! There's more awesome support, but Dukat, Garak and Weyoun are enough evidence.

Basically, both TNG and DS9 usually had something to get people through a dull story. It might have been a great set of lead characters, it might have been a great set of supporting charcters, it might have been the arc the particular episode tied in with, it might have been Patrick Stewart (I know you said no fanboyism, but to hell with you!), it might have been the dark tone, or just watching some brilliant characters.

If there was a dull Voyager, or if it's flaws were showing, it wasfucked. It couldn't compete for plot, development or tone with DS9, and TNG's lead characters were so far beyond the Voyager one's it's not funny. It couldn't compete for great episodes either, but that's a different matter (and it couldn't compete with either for theme tune >_>) Basically, Voyager had nothing special about it to get it through a weak episode, and come on, there were a LOT of them. It's flaws were showing.

On a side note, if GhostMachine's crew from the series were to come together, then omitting The Original Series for no-reason whatsoever, then TNG is bringing Picard, Data, Riker and Geordi, DS9 is brining Sisko, Kira, O'Brien, Odo and Quartk to serve drinks, Worf is there too, and Voyager is bringing The Doctor and ........ Harry Kim? Maybe? At a push.

Of course, this could all just be crazy ramblings.

Edited July 27, 2008 by timmayy Aaron XXIV

[Mick]

I think the problem with Voyager is that initially, a lot of the focus was on DS9. DS9 had, from Voyager's premier to the end of the run, the Klingons and Dominion to deal with. It's hard to get excited over "Strange New Worlds" on Voyager compared to just how cool DS9 was. To me, a lot of the problem with Voyager is that there really was a lack of crew conflict after the first season. Chakotay just seemed to lack balls when compared to Riker and Sisko (granted, Sisko wasn't an executive officer), he just seemd to roll over anyway Janeway said "No, I like my plan more". Riker wasn't afraid to kill Picard when he was taken by the Borg (I love that close up, and then "....Fire.", and Sisko proved he was the shit when he started dropping radiation torpedoes on Maquis worlds.

Tuvok was bland, Torres was constantly PMSing, and Seven was always 'This is inefficient. We are Borg." It got old real fast.

The Doctor was the saving grace, as he was kind of reminiscent of Data; Data wanted to become more human, while the Doctor wanted to be recognized that he was MORE than a hologram, that he could feel and think and expand.

What made DS9 great and Voyager bland was that with DS9, you could sympathize with the character's plight. On Voyager, all you had was Janeway hell bent on getting home, while showing a hint of Picard with regards to the Prime Directive.

Also, emphasis wasn't put on the ship. The ship is of course, the central setting. My mom says she cried in Star Trek III when Kirk blew up the Enterprise. You felt a sense of loss in Generations when the Enterprise D crashed, or when the Defiant got destroyed on DS9, you didn't have the sense that Voyager was a much part of the show as the crew was.

[Toe]

Also, emphasis wasn't put on the ship. The ship is of course, the central setting. My mom says she cried in Star Trek III when Kirk blew up the Enterprise. You felt a sense of loss in Generations when the Enterprise D crashed, or when the Defiant got destroyed on DS9, you didn't have the sense that Voyager was a much part of the show as the crew was.

I cried at the end of Wrath of Kahn when Spock dies.