2010/2011 NBA Thread

[gunnar hendershow]

There's never been a better example of the veterans being better than young stars concept than the Thunder and Bulls collapses in the Conference Finals. Eventually it will be Chicago's turn, and this loss will help mold them for that point. Real interesting Finals matchup. Will it be star power or nearly unlimited depth that prevails?

Steve Kerr just summed it up with his comparison to Robinson-Olajuwon in 1995, when The Admiral came in as the MVP and was just abused by the Rockets. Rose-LBJ in 2011 draws that parallel, only Rose is much younger than Robinson was and has much more room to grow. Another good parallel is how Jordan struggled to get over the Pistons hurdle for 3 years straight, and finally in 1991 that all changed and the rest is history.

[Guest JukeboxHero]

Scottie Pippen, of all people, said this morning that LeBron is the best player to ever play the game of basketball. Let that sink in for a minute.

REALLY?!

[CCUchant375]

Ya'll knew what ya'll had with Darko. The problem is he never got play time to develop in Detroit. The blame there goes on the greatest coach of all time, Larry Brown. I honestly think he is, but he didn't want to play the young guys. Darko had all the potential in the world though, he's late 20's now and he's still a much better player this year than he was when drafted. Big body, good defender, crafty moves in the post, and he could score the ball. The guy could've been a really good big man. He can't show, but he can do a lot of other stuff.

[Blitz]

Scottie Pippen, of all people, said this morning that LeBron is the best player to ever play the game of basketball. Let that sink in for a minute.

REALLY?!

Actually, he said he could be one of the best. Basically saying he has the tools to become better than MJ. Here's a link that tells the whole story.

[gunnar hendershow]

Yeah it's being taken out of context a bit, and myself and a lot other people agreed with Pippen's sentiments until last July. LeBron still might break a lot of records, and he's certainly going to win at least a title or two (wherever he plays the team is going to be in the playoffs year-in and year-out). What will separate LeBron, no matter how many records he breaks, is that he's not the guy anymore. It was a great choice to go to Miami, he gets to play with his friends, he's on a franchise with the smarts of winning it all (Pat Riley), the entire weight of the city isn't on his shoulders. All of this of course means he's having more fun. The damage it does to his legacy, if you wish to call it that, is that he simply will always be one of the Heat. The team is Dwayne Wade's, it's built around him and his strengths. LeBron is a physical anomaly, and it's hard to build around him. Coming into a role where Wade is the centerpiece means he can do what he does best, which is athletically dominate the game, without having to also double as a captain. MJ did both of these, it's what defined his struggles until that first title. When it's all said and done, LeBron could be the best to ever play but he won't be the greatest to ever play.

[maninblack]

I'd say Bill Russell is still the greatest. Heck, he even won championships as a player-coach, something that would likely never happen again in the NBA.

[Hickey]

I'd say Bill Russell is still the greatest. Heck, he even won championships as a player-coach, something that would likely never happen again in the NBA.

I absolutely agree. Bill Russell is the greatest champion in all sports. His championship record is astounding, which is way more important than any stats you can come up with.

[gunnar hendershow]

On a related note to Russell, the Cavs are trying to relive the Celtics' 1956 draft by working on getting the first 2 picks in the draft and taking Irving and Williams. Not the best draft to do it, and I'd instead try stockpiling for future drafts. But you can't argue with the top 2 picks in the draft at least having some impact, no matter how weak the class.

For those wondering, 1956 is the single greatest draft by a team in NBA history. The Celtics got Heinsohn with their territorial pick, traded with St. Louis for Bill Russell who was the number 2 pick, and got K.C. Jones with their original pick. Furthermore, Sam Jones was picked by the Minneapolis Lakers in that draft but went on to not go into the NBA and the following year was picked by the Celtics. Four Hall of Famers all coming out of basically one draft class and going to one team. It's simply incredible.

[Trey]

The only thing the Cavs would be giving up is a bunch of cash and the #4 pick, Irving and Williams is as good a start as any.

As for Russell, I put him probably at #2 behind Jordan.

[sahyder1]

I'd say Bill Russell is still the greatest. Heck, he even won championships as a player-coach, something that would likely never happen again in the NBA.

I absolutely agree. Bill Russell is the greatest champion in all sports. His championship record is astounding, which is way more important than any stats you can come up with.

Lets not get carried away. Stats matter. Robert Horry has 5 championships....that doesn't make him a better power forward then Barkley or Malone. Heck, Darko Milicic has as many rings as Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Carmello combined. Championships are important but they are far from being the thing that matters the most.

[gunnar hendershow]

Especially when, as I mentioned earlier, are on a starting five with five Hall of Famers like Russell was. You take Russell off of those Celtics teams, despite the drop in defense from him to Ed Macauley (the Center who was traded for him), you still have Cousy, K.C. Jones, Heinsohn, Cliff Hagan (who was also traded for Russell), and Sam Jones. That team surely would have won a few titles without Russell. The defensive presence of Russell, at the time Center was the premier offensive position, changed them into a dynasty since nobody could offensively match up with the skill of Russell. There was Wilt, but even he had his numbers drop against Russell.

In a real interesting twist, a few years before the Celtics took Russell, Red Auerbach tried to get Wilt to attend a university in New England so when it came time to draft him he could use his territorial pick on him. Territorial picks were available to pick stand-out local players (either those who played at a local college or grew up in the region) as a way to help grow the NBA's popularity early-on. Chamberlain went to Kansas, Auerbach never had a shot at him, and as a result went for Russell.

Where do I think Russell ranks all-time? Number 3 or 4 at Center. Wilt and Kareem are certainly above him and you can debate whether Shaq is too. Bill Simmons ranked Russell number 2 all-time, but he's a Celtics fan lol.

[Hickey]

I'd say Bill Russell is still the greatest. Heck, he even won championships as a player-coach, something that would likely never happen again in the NBA.

I absolutely agree. Bill Russell is the greatest champion in all sports. His championship record is astounding, which is way more important than any stats you can come up with.

Lets not get carried away. Stats matter. Robert Horry has 5 championships....that doesn't make him a better power forward then Barkley or Malone. Heck, Darko Milicic has as many rings as Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Carmello combined. Championships are important but they are far from being the thing that matters the most.

Yeah, except that Russell has 11 rings, more than double Horry. And he has the stats to back him up. Plus, at the time playing defense wasn't a big deal. He revolutionized defense and the way the Center position and the game was played.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course stats matter, but when we're talking about the best players in the world, Championship rings are more important than their stats.

We're talking about the best players in the world. Why would anyone bring up Horry or Milicic?

[gunnar hendershow]

I'd say Bill Russell is still the greatest. Heck, he even won championships as a player-coach, something that would likely never happen again in the NBA.

I absolutely agree. Bill Russell is the greatest champion in all sports. His championship record is astounding, which is way more important than any stats you can come up with.

Lets not get carried away. Stats matter. Robert Horry has 5 championships....that doesn't make him a better power forward then Barkley or Malone. Heck, Darko Milicic has as many rings as Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Carmello combined. Championships are important but they are far from being the thing that matters the most.

Yeah, except that Russell has 11 rings, more than double Horry. And he has the stats to back him up. Plus, at the time playing defense wasn't a big deal. He revolutionized defense and the way the Center position and the game was played.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course stats matter, but when we're talking about the best players in the world, Championship rings are more important than their stats.

We're talking about the best players in the world. Why would anyone bring up Horry or Milicic?

11 rings with names like Cousy, K.C. Jones, Sam Jones, Heinsohn, Havlicek, Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, and Jim Loscutoff. Give me one player in history with a better cast of players surrounding him.

[Hickey]

I'd say Bill Russell is still the greatest. Heck, he even won championships as a player-coach, something that would likely never happen again in the NBA.

I absolutely agree. Bill Russell is the greatest champion in all sports. His championship record is astounding, which is way more important than any stats you can come up with.

Lets not get carried away. Stats matter. Robert Horry has 5 championships....that doesn't make him a better power forward then Barkley or Malone. Heck, Darko Milicic has as many rings as Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Carmello combined. Championships are important but they are far from being the thing that matters the most.

Yeah, except that Russell has 11 rings, more than double Horry. And he has the stats to back him up. Plus, at the time playing defense wasn't a big deal. He revolutionized defense and the way the Center position and the game was played.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course stats matter, but when we're talking about the best players in the world, Championship rings are more important than their stats.

We're talking about the best players in the world. Why would anyone bring up Horry or Milicic?

11 rings with names like Cousy, K.C. Jones, Sam Jones, Heinsohn, Havlicek, Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, and Jim Loscutoff. Give me one player in history with a better cast of players surrounding him.

Absolutely. I understand that totally. It's just my opinion and I'm not claiming it as gospel.

Yes, he had a great supporting cast, but he was the leader of the team. He helped make those players around him better. And none of them have as many rings as him.

I will also say I am not a Celtics fan. I'm from New York and a Yankees fan, so I really don't like Boston sports teams. I just really respect a guy that won that many championships and was a consistent winner for that many years. If he wasn't the best player in basketball history, he was at least the greatest winner in basketball/sports history.

[gunnar hendershow]

I had a real long reply to your post yesterday and for some reason it isn't showing up now.

Oh well, I basically said that a lot of how you rate Russell depends on how you rate his teammates and how you rate his opponents. Anyway, Finals start in an hour. I'm not sure who to pick, still balancing between depth (Dallas) and stars (Miami). Miami has better defense, but Dallas might have too many answers for Miami. In the end the one thing I'm sure is that if Dirk averages more than 30 the Mavericks win the series. Less than 30 and they don't have a chance.

[gunnar hendershow]

Dallas was doing everything they needed to do, but then they weren't scoring enough in the 4th, and then Dwayne Wade took over the game like only he and Kobe can.

But I'd feel okay if I were the Mavs, they know they can keep it close and if they hit some of the open shots they had this is a totally different game. The rim is the defensive MVP of this game though, that thing was pesky for Dallas.

[mystikz]

officiating was rather poor ... unless your Miami. other than that Dallas just had too many misses. well they were going to lose at least 1 in Miami, they should recover next game.

Edited June 1, 2011 by mystikz

[Hickey]

I saw the last few minutes because I had work, but I hope you're right damshow because I really don't want Miami to win.

[gunnar hendershow]

I saw the last few minutes because I had work, but I hope you're right damshow because I really don't want Miami to win.

They had a ton of great looks, far more than Miami did, but the shots just didn't fall. Jason Terry has to shoulder a lot of the blame for this loss.

Also, Dirk has a torn tendon in his left middle finger. It happened when he had the clean strip of Bosh that was called a foul. He'll wear a splint the rest of the Finals.

[ROZAY]

officiating was rather poor ... unless your Miami. other than that Dallas just had too many misses. well they were going to lose at least 1 in Miami, they should recover next game.

Dallas did go to the line more than Miami, if my memory is correct. Dallas did get a lot of bullshit calls against them, though.