mkpunk

Pride, WMF, World Japan and BattleArts aren't being used because the computer will still go and set the rosters to their typical situation as oppose to if World Japan was Wrestle-One (IMO not a bad idea but still.)

My opinion on where this thread has ended up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yvnLCxo-m8

What stats would be affected. IMO Harper is pretty fine as is. Are The Bro Mans' REALLY that over? I get raising Jessie higher but that's all. Cagematch isn't the be all, end all by any means but sometimes it is the only place we can get info we can get on guys. (Though they still don't have a profile for Thunder who has been in CMLL for almost a year now. Like say Brian Lee (Japan) he was a Toryumon 2006 era guy. (The Mexico only group that went to Canada's UWA in 2007.) He hasn't appeared in any results since the UWA. He also has a luchawiki entry. Pride maybe "closed" (so was World Japan and now BattleArts) but it is still a promotion for the game (if we had the code for it, perhaps we could have fixed it by now.) I think all we can do is strip those rosters and let the game fill in the non global committed wrestlers who fit the criteria. I think the Pride guys, UFC guys, Strikeforce guys, Bellator guys (ect), the New Japan guys who dabbled in it, and other properly MMA trained guys like Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly.

Thank you, all I wanted was a clear answer about BattleArts. I wasn't getting it. I appreciate it. Sorry if I was being an idiot. I agree many who were listed in the UFC were straw men who have no business being considered. A Daniel Bryan however was considering to be a grappler after his wrestling career is over http://www.chicagonow.com/mma-disputed/2012/04/from-vegan-to-mma-daniel-bryan/. CM Punk however would consider an MMA fight or two http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1041359-wwe-champion-cm-punk-talks-ufc-connection-interest-in-a-fight-and-much-more.

I'm banging my head against the wall because you aren't answering me and instead say how BattleArts is worked (I know that) and "irrelevant" (IMO if it was irrelevant, why was it included in the game?) One person's "absurd" is not. The original UFC format was taking the best fighters from one discipline against another. Dan Severn could fight Royce Gracie to see if a martial artist or a wrestler is a better athlete. K-1 and PRIDE were more refined (due to the issues early UFC faced with being "barbaric" as US Senator of Arizona John McCain put it) but there were still kickboxers who would fight with other disciplines. I am not saying every worker should have shooting ability ticked but it shouldn't be a short few who have participated in UFC and PRIDE. Why not include toughman in there? Toughman was virtually the same as Brawl For All. And you seem to be continually ducking my question about BattleArts no matter how many times I ask does it rely on shooting technique like Pride does. Unless there is a Japanese Touring group criteria document that I am missing, I have never heard how say Toryumon (now Dragon Gate) gets one guy and another promotion say BattleArts gets another while PRIDE gets someone else entirely.

Does BattleArts actually not base it off of shooting? If it does guys who wrestled for UWF, UWF-I, New Japan in 04 and that should be included as well as those with MMA training and hooking. (EDIT: The BattleArts/"Worked" MMA style was never addressed other than it is not a "shoot.") I still don't get why it is called shooting ability if it is meant for solely for martial arts. I mean everyone in wrestling accepts shoot as legit. That is why those like Mike Barton and Hardcore Holly who participated in Brawl For All have it as well as boxers (Konnan, Marc Mero, Baron Corbin), amateur wrestlers, Hart Dungeon trainees and those like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan who trained with legit MMA training camps. (Now obviously we cannot change the tick as the coding to the game was lost years ago but there is a language issue because shooting can include hooking and not just going into a legit fight.) Out of the workers from matches 1-7, I can only expect Hardcore Holly and maybe New Jack and Eric Bischoff to legitmately be possibilities on the UFC card. Hardcore because he is a legitamate tough guy and Eric Bischoff because he thinks he's tough (plus his Karate experience.) As for New Jack, he is legit tough and just plain crazy enough to (if he can get past testing.)

Remove Masada from DG-USA, I don;t remember the last time he actually appeared for them. The same with Reby Sky.

DGUSA/EVOLVE updates: Remove Alex Reynolds (last appeared in June 2012) Add Biff Busick Lower Midcard Face? (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November) Remove Brian Kendrick (only appeared on the January and Mania shows) Remove Cheech (last appeared in June 2012) Remove Flip Kendrick (last appeared in September 2011) Add Harlem Bravado Lower Midcard Tweener (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November) Remove John Silver (last appeared in June 2012) Add Lancelot Bravado Lower Midcard Tweener (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November) Remove Louis Lyndon (last appeared in September 2011) Add Mark Angelosetti Lower Midcard Cocky Heel (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November) Remove Mike Cruz (last appeared in June 2012) Remove Pinkie Sanchez (last appeared in September 2012) Remove Player Dos (last appeared for the Mania shows) Remove Player Uno (last appeared for the Mania shows)

I think the situation is pretty clear - ultimately this is not about peoples level or type of training - it's about whether or not they would be likely to turn up in Pride FC (if the company was still around), so lets say the UFC, as a substitute. That's it, I think it just confuses the matter to bring up other things like so-and-so did this Gracie workshop, knowing MMA techniques is very different to being at the level required to be signed by Pride [the 'shoot' stat in a nut-shell]... and being signed by Pride (UFC?) is the only thing we need to care about when making this determination. That is literally the only relevant criteria for this stat. Can I see any of those guys competing in the Pride (or UFC) in future? No. Do I think even if given that it's unlikely, that they would 'qualify' to compete in the UFC in some hypothetical universe? No. Knowing MMA techniques is a different universe to being signed by Pride FC to compete in a real fight. These people dedicated years to training not a few hours, or as a hobby. As I stated in my last post, 'MMA inspired' training isn't sufficient - otherwise virtually anyone could have 'shoot' ticked, it's not about how many BJJ workshops you attended under a Gracie, have you competed in Pride? Would Pride sign you in future? No? No tick. You have the wrong idea if you think it's about level of training, shooting ability etc. 'Shoot' = Would Pride FC sign them to fight? 'Shoot' /=/ Can this person 'shoot'? I understand that there a hundreds of guys with the box ticked already, and looking at this list only quickly you can see that people in the past have applied the second definition, and not the first (thinking it was a measure of MMA knowledge rather than understanding its purpose in game). There are too many people on that list to mention here that obviously would never work for Pride or be offered a contract to fight there, these people should be obvious. Basically the way the stat has been used in the past runs against its intention in the game, it came to be used in a certain way, but that doesn't mean we should keep using it incorrectly. I mean, Pride FC doesn't even sign female fighters, and there are dozens of women on that list - it's pretty clear the stat has been used wrong and people don't understand its purpose or what should qualify someone to have it. Just because a lot of people have it that shouldn't, doesn't mean we should continue to hand it out on false grounds. I could see guys like Kyle O'Reilly, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan and Davey Richards going to a promotion like BATTLEARTS, UWF or UWF-I which are more wrestling inspired "shoot" fighting. Shoot in the game is for shoot fight experience which could include shoot training due to groups like Battlearts (not sure if they go off shooting ability ticked. Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA. To be honest, even then you have missed a bunch of people with really obvious MMA experience. I could have missed more without double checking. It was late when I did that list last night. I think this is the best argument for what SHOULD be included for shooting ability. Though I would add the Harts due to their obvious experience in Dungeon.

RE: The Bati Bati style or UWF-style, yes a lot of those guys would definitely have 'shoot' ticked as they have competed in legitimate MMA fights that were not supposed to be worked. The list of Japanese guys who need the tick is much longer for the reasons you stated, and just due to the different culture of puroresu, and its storied relationship with MMA. Some Japanese wrestlers who have competed in Pride for example: Alexander Otsuka Hirotaka Yokoi Katsushisa Fuji Kazunari Murakami Kazushi Sakuraba Kazuyuki Fujita Kiyoshi Tamura Michiyoshi Ohara Naoki Sano Naoya Ogawa Nobuhiko Takada Tadao Yasuda Wataru Sakata Kendo Kashin Enson Inoue Yoshiaki Yatsu Yoshihiro Takayama Yoji Ano Takashi Sugiura ------------------------------ None of the american guys you mentioned there should have 'shoot' ticked though. As I was trying to establish in my previous post (to paraphrase Brock Lesnar) there is a meaningful difference between doing a BJJ class at your local gym (or the Inoki Gym in the case of American Dragon), and training to compete in MMA, or otherwise training at the skill and intensity level required to compete in MMA. The majority of wrestlers in the game world do not meet this criteria, and in general very few non-Japanese workers will. If it's still not clear enough who qualifies for this 'tick' then consider this question in regards to the worker you have in mind... could you see them competing in the UFC? If no, they shouldn't get a tick. Again there are some rare exceptions for guys like Kurt Angle, who are extremely high level practitioners in a related sport; but these people really are rare. To suggest that someone should get the 'shoot' tick because they have done 'MMA inspired' training is like saying anyone who studies Karate, or BJJ in their spare time is likely to get signed to fight for Pride FC... that's not just unrealistic, it's preposterous. Pride FC was a big big organisation in it's time, equivalent to the UFC, to tour with Pride FC should be an exclusive and rare trait in any worker in the database (as it is in real life). I don't see the point in trying to sneak in as many workers with that trait as possible, it's not a game feature that is designed to be controversial. In the vast majority of cases the 'tick' should be on people who have already competed in MMA (or Pride), the guys with no history of MMA fighting should be a small minority of the cohort with the 'tick'. Guys like Punk, Bryan and Richards though trained in grappling though. Punk trained with Rener Gracie (which is the sweatshirt he wears to the ring.) Bryan trained with Xtreme Couture before signing his WWE deal in 2009. Richards is trained in Ju-Jitsu. All three COULD do a form of MMA. Have they liked the men you mentioned, no. The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training): Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

There's also the former BattleArts who is a more worked version of PRIDE. I am not sure if they require shooting as well. New Japan also did PRIDE/F-1 inspired wrestling too. Whether it was the 2004 stuff with Sapp and Barnett as well as the UWF invasion. The issue is we have had guys like Daniel Bryan, Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly who also have dabbled in MMA inspired training as well who could do MMA but they have not entered into a fight.

Basically someone made a suggestion that some ex-football players should have shooter ticked but there is no link between football and being a shooter alone (unless they are a dual-sport athlete doing football and amateur wrestling.) IMO shoot technique should only go to amateur wrestlers, MMA guys, and martial artists.

No, it is saying that some football players do amateur wrestling as well. Those are the ones who deserve shooter ticked. Not those like Kofi or something without amateur wrestling experience. I played college football, and now I coach football on a competitive level. There is no way, playing football should cause the ticking of shooting ability in game. In football alone, no. However if it is someone who did amateur football to help with timing and being in a sport to keep in football shape during down season (a reality more so in high school than college) it is different. I think the linemen in NXT (Corbin) was a boxer who former Cardinal coach Ken Wisenhunt (what an idiot) said 'Now, don't go pulling any MMA stuff on me. We're going to put you on the practice squad.' http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/2010/09/07/20100907arizona-cardinals-tom-pestock.html#ixzz2iZ7OUe48 He is just saying that football alone shouldn't be a factor due to his experience. I agree.

Dirtbike Kid hasn't wrestled at all in the better part of ten years, as far as I know. Last I heard, he was working as a stuntman. He's best known for his "match" with Great Sasuke at the masked league in M-Pro, where Sasuke shot on him viciously for removing his mask. Searching for "Dirtbike Kid wrestler" on Google or Youtube will give yo u that as the first result. Aside from that, he was reasonably big on the UK circuit in the mid-90s, and popped up in ECW and a couple of US indies in '96 as "Shark Attack Kid". But, yeah, I don't think he's wrestled since around 2003 or so. That's obviously a different Dirtbike Kid though. The Dirtbike Kid in the game is American, not British. It's far more likely that his nationality is set wrong in the game than that there are two wrestlers called the Dirtbike Kid, especially when the photo for the one in the game is the British guy. Playing American Football should not qualify a worker for "shooting ability". The "shooting ability" stat pretty much only means that Pride are likely to pick them up on a touring contract. I can't really see Kofi or Bo Dallas signing with an MMA company any time soon. I'd imagine Richie Steamboat has it checked because he had a background in amateur wrestling, not football. As I said, it is possible to be dual-sport in football and in amateur wrestling in high school. I knew several friends that did that, one even hated pro-wrestling. IMO, if they don't have an amateur background like Brock who was dual sport, it shouldn't be. I think Baron Corbin (the man who started this debate about football players in the game getting shooting ticked) was an amateur wrestler during the football off-season. As for Bo Dallas, Bray Wyatt and Kofi Kingston, not so sure. I am not sure when the next release will be, but if it is after November 3rd, I got an AAA spoilers on their card for the 3rd.

Many did amateur wrestling to help with timing for being a linesman for football. My dad did it in high school, so did Brock Lesnar.

Shauna Na was a member of Wrestlicious that maybe only wrestled in the Battle Royal. http://youtu.be/Ei93yTpJSj0?t=1m21s

In an update to my Rocky Lobo stats, he should be 18. iHEARTdg has him as this age. (He is set to tour with Flamita trough December in Dragon Gate but i wouldn't add them unless they return next year.)

AAA notes post Heroes Immoral Raise Dark Cuervo's overness to 58. Raise Dark Espritu's overness to 55. Raise Dark Ozz's overness to 61 Raise Escoria's overness to 56. Perro Aguayo Jr. should be tweener. Non-AAA notes: Add Rocky Lobo: Add an active tag team called Los Mexitosos with Ricky Marvin and Super Crazy. Put them at 45 exp. Add an active tag team called Crazy Dynasty with Pesdilla and Super Crazy. Put them at 8 exp. Edit: Make Homicide and Dan Maff's relationship a friendship. They finally shook hands since their fallout in 2005 at an ICW event where Da Hit Squad saved Homicide. I doubt they would do that if there was a dislike/hatred. Plus Homicide got Maff back into wrestling for JAPW when Homicide was in TNA.

Keith Haught isn't in the game. We either needs stats or perhaps he is in the game and we don't know it (is an alter ego or something.)

I am not sure if those are full-time gaijin for New Japan. Barreta and Kendrick were a part of Best of the Super Juniors but not used since and now are back for the tag league. As for the Young Bucks, they are now in for that tournament for the first time. I typically say once they do more consistent tours they should be touring with a Japanese promotion just because some are for tournaments or are tryouts like Lion Kid in Dragon Gate in 2010; AR Fox, Scott Reed Johnny Gargano in Dragon Gate in 2012; and now Mike Sydal and Flamita in Dragon Gate this year. I wouldn't add them until at least two tours.

It depends. When WCW was around, I think the cutoff was 220lbs. WWE's light heavyweight title was, I think, 230lbs The old junior heavyweight division (something the WWF and NWA had into the 80's) was technically up to 235. The WCW Cruiserweight title was 225 (I think the WWF Light Heavyweight title had the same cut-off.) If you go by New Japan, the cut off for their Junior Heavyweight title is 100K (about 220 which was also the limit when Lance Storm renamed the WCW Cruiserweight title to the 100 Kilos and Under title.) I think 230 is fine because some guys can "drop" weight to jump from division to division (Matt Hardy, Disco Inferno, ect.)

I would wait on adding both OMEGA and Extreme Rising. OMEGA has been running benefit shows every few months. Extreme Rising is just returning and ran just as infrequent as OMEGA. It's not like DGUSA who switch off shows with EVOLVE. In other Extreme Rising related news, I would raise Hijo De Rey Misterio II's speed to 78 and overness to 35. He was the one that appeared in Extreme Rising last year (not the original.) I would add blood relationships between him and the other Mysterios (Rey Sr. the original Hijo de Rey Misterio and Rey Jr.) He said he is a nephew of Rey. Sr. Also rename Hijo De Rey Misterio to Rey Misterio Jr. II.

CMLL changes: Dalis Le Caribena should be heel, she recently turned ruda. Add Tama Tonga to CMLL as heel. Raise his overness to 54 and charisma to 60. (he is coming back and he teamed with Rey Bucanero to win the CMLL World Tag Team titles in September.) Volador Jr. should have Back Cracker (impact) as his primary finisher and Moonsault Side Slam (Corner) as his secondary finisher. Rename Manquia de Destruction to Bullet Club. Add Tama Tonga and Tiger. The former TRT is now going by this name. (I expect this name to last at most a month as well.) Add a blood relationship between L.A. Par-K and Super Parka. Here are some workers to add to the game that have worked the recent monthly CMLL Furor shows in Arena Naucalpan. Add Canis Lupis: Add Centvrion: Add Comando Negro: Add Dinamic Black Add Flyer:

Add Australian Suicide:

I've know about Gulak and Cassidy for a while, but do you have any idea if Green Ant works elsewhere? I love all three guys as workers and want to see more of him. Green Ant wrestled as Green Ant for EVOLVE during the style battle 13. I know The Ants have wrestled for DGUSA but I think besides CHIKARA they have stuck to their non-CHIKARA names now.