snakesonaplane

Thanks for answering but what is that for keyboard?

Anyone know of any decent-ish players who will sign on a free transfer during the first transfer window of career mode? I've only found Casado (LB for RM Castilla) and Meijas (GK for RM Castilla), Meijas is a top, top buy, as his projected overall is 79. Also I really need to find out how to defend a spot-kick as the GK, since standing still (or moving randomly side to side) can only get me so far in the world.

Didn't Bill post a really useful guide to how relationships affect worker morale in EWR? I think that should be better understood and considered when adding new relationships, basically relationships should be rare as they can affect worker morale significantly, which brings me to trainer loyalty... Bill said, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hire a Blood Relative: +20 Morale Fire a Blood Relative: -25 Morale Hire a Dislike: -20 Morale Fire a Dislike: No Change Hire a Friendship: +10 Morale Fire a Friendship: -25 Morale Hire a Hate: -40 Morale Fire a Hate: No Change Hire a Love: +20 Morale Fire a Love: -25 Morale Hire a Loyalty: +10 Morale Fire a Loyalty: -25 Morale So, as an example: Brie Bella and Daniel Bryan have a "Love" relationship in the game. So, if you had Brie on your roster and hired Bryan, Brie's morale would go up by 20. If both were on the roster and you fired either, the one that you kept would have their morale drop by 25. Firing a Loyalty or Love also has the chance that the person you don't fire will leave as well, especially if they are only under an open contract. Hopefully, this helps some when suggesting to add relationships into the game. Are two people really "friends" enough that they'd drop 25 points in morale if you fired their "friend"? Is a trainer "loyal" enough to a student that they'd drop 25 points in morale and perhaps even leave the promotion, if you fired their trainee?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trainer loyalty: I don't know for sure but I also have a feeling the concept of trainer loyalty (and arguably 'loyalty' in general) is one of those features that is meant to simulate the Japanese wrestling universe, such as the promotion loyalty feature in TEW 13 being designed for Japan. This makes sense... worker loyalty and 'discipleship' is a real concept in Japan, but where does this happen outside Japan ? Not saying it doesn't, just would like some examples. I feel like the loyalty relationship for trainers and trainees should probably not be used in the US at all, as i'm not aware of anyone operating like it exists in real life. To an extent I could see it occuring in Mexico, but often this is also the result of politics and blood relations rather than trainer loyalty. It is plausible for Mexico though, but given the strong effect it has on morale it needs to be considered carefully no matter what region it exists in. Like Bill highlighted above, if you fire a person with whom a worker has loyalty there is a chance the other party will quit the promotion, do people really see that happening in the US with Al Snow and the Tough Enough guys? Or even Quak and any of his trainees if they were all in TNA or something? I don't. As Azazel explains above, this is unlikely even if there is a friendship because people don't want to be out of work! So if you add that sort of relationship, which creates a chance the other worker will quit in progress, it's gotta to be something that is really legit. Friendship: As Bill highlighted in the statement above, friendship is another relationship that has strong effects on morale, it should only be given when people are likely to get pissed if their friend is fired. I think the problem with how the relationship is given sometimes is that 'like' is confused with friendship, and work accquaintances are not the same as friends. I'm friends with a lot of people at my work, I like them, but we are not really 'friends' and if they got fired I'd miss them for a time, but my morale isn't going to tank the same as if someone I was 'loyal' to was fired. The morale penalties for these relationships are all similar and reflect different types of platonic relationships, but which have equivalent value for the individual in context. Someone could be a really close friend, like a brother to you (friendship), or like father (loyalty) etc. Also, as relationships are created organically in the game universe it's not really that necessary to add a lot of these to the database, as they have a strong effect on gameplay and if not done correctly will hurt the data; also by not adding a massive amount of relationships it makes the game world more unique with each re-play, as the relationships in play are more based around randomly generated rather than preset ones. In my data, I tend to focus on getting blood relationships and love in as detailed as possible. After that I focus on any existing documented loyalty, then any friendships that are with or between powerful in-game characters, i.e. people who are friends with bookers or owners, or who are disliked by bookers or owners. Reason being, setting relationship between workers and owners/bookers will actually affect gameplay meaningfully as it will affect peoples push and who gets signed/fired, where as many 'friendships' between workers with no power or status in the game world is fairly meaningless and has little to no effect on the simulation.

To Colly, It does affect Pride though! With Saturn, I'm assuming it's because his style implemented a lot of martial arts kicks, leg sweeps, and submissions. He used a pretty vicious, realistic approach in the ring. Probably the same can be said for guys like Regal and Vader. In addition, Collyer and Guido had offenses based on strong takedown skills and submissions. I'm really struggling to justify the "shooting ability" trait being as narrow as you seem to think it is with guys like Rutten, Ortiz and the like being the only ones that should have it. Most of the MMA guys have been taken completely out of modern data sets as it is. It looks like the gauge was a bit broader to include workers who worked rough and tough, realistic styles. Phil Parent from the Rave X team is still active over at GDS. I've sent him a PM - maybe he can shed some light. It's about the effect is has on the game though, we can't change the mechanics so to avoid Kofi Kingston in Pride we have to draw a line somewhere; given that shooting affects pride tours and hiring for promoters who prefer 'MMA guys' I don't see why my argument for the shoot stat doesn't gel with that. It's not about how people actually wrestle in pro-wrestling matches. If you give guys shooting they'll end up in Pride (or be hired by people who want 'MMA guys'), hence the criteria being used by me heavily weights towards MMA fighters. Like I said in a post above I do agree there is some room for other guys who have never wrestled in MMA but have elite skills, and who with training could transition. Collyer, Guido and Vader all wrestled in shoot-style wrestling matches in their career, i.e. fake MMA. I could see the point of putting in people who have worked shoot-style in legit shoot-style companies like UWF or Battlarts, like those guys. The problem with making the definition broader than that is you end up ticking shooting for guys like Davey Richards who just kick hard, basically if you don't use some kind of logical criteria you end up doing stats based off kayfabe. That said, this is only my opinion - if people don't care about my reasoning then fine, if they want to broaden the stat to mean 'realistic fighting styles' then that's fine too. I'm focusing on how the game will respond to our input, I agree it's not a perfect simulation, but unless we can change how the game functions I think it is the best way to implement the feature. Ultimately though there is going to be an element of subjectivity in all of this, such as with the 'what about guys who could do MMA in the future?' argument - and i've probably already said too much on this subject

Pretty sure Sid is working on his own game (Sid 14) for a competing developer... so far the roster is: Sid Sycho Sid Sid Vicious Sid Justice Lord Humongous Vicious Warrior With Dan Spivey as the only DLC.

I actually agree with this, though that sort of thing is obviously hard to judge and tends to become a bit too subjective which isn't that useful unless used sparingly. There are room for exceptions though and people with clear potential should be considered. On those guys though, they did sort of leave wrestling, announce they were going to do MMA, and then started training for MMA; which is different to being in wrestling and then suddenly announcing you're going to Japan to fight in a MMA promotion, with no MMA training under your belt. Which is why we need to be hesitant to give it out to guys with no MMA background as of yet. However your premise is solid; in the previous discussion on this subject I made the point that obviously high level grapplers and freaks even without MMA training should be candidates for shooting. Like Kurt Angle has never wrestled MMA and probably never will because of that dime neck of his, but wind back the clock for a years and he would have deserved a tick because he didn't just have amateur experience, he was the best in the world. I think this is why Saturn has shooting in that set above, he was a former US Army Ranger so the fighting instinct and training is there. There's always room for freaks in MMA, Akebono, Giant Silva, and every other 'Giant' ever brought into MMA in Japan ever. In Japan they have the 'amateur guy' equivalent also... in high level Judo practioners, though the transition potential to MMA is more obvious there. Interesting discussion, but can you give me some examples of who you think might fit that bill today?

Just on the 'shooting thing' --- if it also affects who will be hired by owners who prefer 'MMA' doesn't that kind of tell you that it's designed for MMA guys? In regards to the ravex data list of shooters above... Bassman as UPW promoter didn't it run as a MMA style promotion or sign MMA guys, it was WWE style guys like John Cena, big muscle guys, as it was a WWE developmental type place. Bassman did however run a MMA company in California called Valor Fighting, doesn't mean as a wrestling promoter he should be hiring shooters though, but I guess that's why that happened. Inoki when he was running things in NJPW had a hard-on for MMA fighters (still does) and brought one in to be IWGP Heavyweight champ, and his current promotion IGF is shoot-style, and purports to feature MMA bouts (funnily enough he brought in the exact same guy to be Heavyweight champ there too). So he should definitely have a MMA preference. The list of guys with shooting ticked in ravex data actually reinforces my point about who should have shooting I think, Durante Rutten Severn Gracie Shamrock Shamrock Barton Waterman O'Haire Abbot Predator Ortiz Friedman Howard All of these guy had MMA fights, and they make up the vast majority of that 'shooter' list, also note the fact that very few people in the data actually have shooting, because it's supposed to be rare. The rest of the guys on that list are logical inclusions on some level, except for Jimmy Rave (a joke?). Collyer (Inoki Dojo), Nunzio (UWF), and Vader (UWF) all worked shoot-style matches, i.e. worked-MMA. This leaves only three guys (four if you include Rave, but no idea why he's there): Masada? No idea. Saturn was a former US Army Ranger, so I guess people assumed he was trained pretty seriously in MMA as a result. Regal was a former bare-knuckler fight wasn't he? Maybe that was kayfabe, if not that is competitive fighting, and Regal can work shoot-style too. --------------- The fact that women can tour with Pride doesn't mean they should have shooting ticked because Pride was not for female fighters, it's like giving male wrestlers high sex appeal in TEW 13, it's not designed for them to use that stat. It creates unintended and unrealistic consequences, like Sara Del Ray in a real MMA promotion - Pride FC. It's possible for that to happen in game, but it shouldn't be happening is the point. This is the thing, when you decide whether or not to give someone shooting you have to consider all the game consequences. Ignoring the fact that Inoki has never hired a women, and Bassman didn't run a MMA style wrestling promotion, if you give women shooting they will appear in Pride, which doesn't make sense. This is the same reason why you need to consider carefully what males get shooting because they could also end up in a MMA promotion, I don't think the fact that Inoki prefers these guys or Bassman does matters in that context. Shooting does -Set who tours with Pride -Affects who signs with guys who 'prefer MMA' People are right to point out it has more than one effect, I thought it just affected Pride tours - but affecting also who signs with a promoter who 'prefers MMA' doesn't undermine my initial points at all... i.e. the stat should be reserved for MMA guys. The bulk of the list posted, most of the guys also have appeared for Pride which I dont think is a coincidence. The debate about whether amateur wrestling counts as 'shoot fighting' experience I feel is moot because most the of wrestlers who had that background in high school or college do not have the level required to transition to MMA anyway. Pride didn't hire US guys with amateur wrestling backgrounds, everyone who fought in Pride had MMA training beforehand. We can't give shooting to a guy with amateur wrestling because we think that counts as 'fighting' because of the effect it has in the game. You can't just assume that people would be capable or want to fight in MMA which is a different sport altogether. You need MMA training to do that, just having wrestling skills isn't enough (maybe this why Kurt Angle didn't have shooting ticked?). Owners that prefer 'MMA guys' aren't hiring amateur wrestlers either, they're hiring 'MMA guys'. So unless people consider amateur wrestling to be a MMA it's not relevant to the discussion of shooting. I feel like the fact that in pro-wrestling 'shooters' are often considered to be the guys who do have that amateur grappling background has muddied the waters.

Okay so caved to EA and gave them my money because I couldn't get my cracked copies of Fifa 12 or Fifa 12 to stop crashing to desktop during career mode. Now I have Fifa 14, new menu system in career mode is pretty damn confusing. Hate the fact I can't see peoples' market value or overall value anymore, I don't care for the two tier scout system at all. That said as a former PES fanatic after I switched over I loved the detail of the game world and it's bazillion leagues, so yay. But now with Fifa 14 I'm finding the whole transfer and scout stuff pretty confusing, can has help please? When I add people to my short-list, where the fuck is my short list? I can't seem to find it all. Second question, what is the point of the second-tier scouts? I get that they help show me the stats, but will they ever show me market value? Are they really useful? Third question, how come sometimes I can 'enquire about' a player and sometimes I cant when looking at their profile? Do I need a scout in that players league 'enquire about'? Fourth question, how can I find the list where my current transfer negotiations are? I can only seem to access it when I get an email about a transfer. Also, not being able to release all the deadweight in my QPR squad (because of the release cap) to fill it with Spanish teenagers is frustrating. Other than this i'm very happy. Fifth question, how do dive as the goalkeeper in a penalty shoot-out with keyboard controls? It's not even listed in the 'controls' section in-game

Really? I don't remember that from ewr, but I trust you so I guess I'm wrong about that. Its weird because Pride never had a womans division and that is what the shooting tick is for so it would make sense for women to not be able to tour with Pride. But it has been a long time since I have played original ewr so I humbly retract statement. My apologies for the misinformation.

Pretty much this. Someone should have 100 in some of the stats at least, the point of having 100 isn't that the individual is 'perfect' but that they are in a league of their own... the best in the world at that thing, otherwise you're gonna have to have a lot of people on fairly similar numbers, there needs to distinction between even the elite guys. The way this is balanced is that pretty much only one person should have 100 in any given stat, and not necessarily every stat has to have a 100 guy/girl, but the ones that do are meant to be unique people. In the default TEW universe for most top row stats above 60 is considered pretty good, 70-80 is really good, and only a small percentage of people hit above 90 in most of the stat categories. In terms of 100 scores, in TEW at least, the default Adam-verse has a few people who meet that special score with the following skills all having at least one individual with the '100' value (basics has 10 guys with this value for example): Submission Star Quality Menace Toughness Resilience Toughness Power Stamina Basics Psychology Consistency Respect The highest value for Charisma is 95. This means that having 100 shouldn't be forbidden, Adam himself gave 100 for the above stats to one or more workers in his data; they're the elite guys. The thing is though, this and other mods are based in the real world, which has more workers and actually a bigger more successful industry than exists in the Adam-verse. I think in some ways we should try to emulate the scaling used by Adam to keep his universe balanced, but also in real-life there are guys who deserve these kinds of values, and given the database of most mods dwarfs the size of the default universe, it shouldn't be surprising if there are more guys overall that score highly as a percentage. The key is just to keep things balanced. For example the threshold for being in the top 10% in 'Charisma' in TEW 12 default data for a north american male is a value of 76, the highest value being 95 as stated above (the median value is 57). For many of the stats to be in the top 10% you need only to have late 60s or early 70 type values. But it depends on the skill, things like basics and psychology have higher standards to reach the top tier because these skills can be derived from experience alone, through grind rather than necessarily in-ring ability, like brawling or high-flying. So for guys with 20+ years experience (the type of guys in the top %10 for these two stats), it's a measure of their experience wrestling 1000s of matches.

I like the idea of treating Pride as IGF if it's not in the data already, as the IGF does purport to feature 'real' MMA, though I can't say I've ever took the risk to watch an IGF show so I'm not sure if 'IGF MMA rules' isn't just worked shoot. Though I did watch that one match with the Predator and DOC where Inoki came out to slap Chono and call the match off for being turrible. If Bill was to do that the IGF roster would be: Kazyuki Fujita Kendo Kashin Yusuke Kawaguchi / Crusher Kawaguchi Shogun Okamoto Hideki Suzuki Naoya Ogawa Atsushi Sawada Akira Jo Shinichi Suzukawa Satoshi Ishii Tatsuhito Takaiwa (Black Tiger) Regular Gaijin: Bob Sapp Peter Aerts Erik Hammer Bobby Lashley A lot of the native guys won't be in the game though as they're just mostly failed MMA guys who debuted in the IGF. Also, slightly embarrassed that it seems like whenever I post in here it precipitates a flame-war >_>

No worries, sorry if I was rude at all. Fair enough, I think as both are signed in game to WWE anyway so won't be touring with Pride unless they are released, and it wouldn't be until after their WWE careers are over that they would consider MMA... so that could work. If someone actually says, 'i'm considering doing MMA in the future', then we probably don't need to tick 'shooting' for them until they act on that, but I'd be much less opposed to using the tick for people in that situation than people who have never said such things.

mkpunk says, --------------- I'm banging my head against the wall because you aren't answering me and instead say how BattleArts is worked (I know that) and "irrelevant" (IMO if it was irrelevant, why was it included in the game?) ------------- I already said some of the guys from Battlarts worked Pride and so fit there. The reason why I said Battlarts isn't really relevant is because whether someone worked there isn't a test of whether they could/would for Pride, since one is worked shoot and one actually real MMA. But I already said some of the Bati Bati guys and UWF guys should be ticked, and many of them are listed in the Japanese workers I posted in previous post. Battlarts is included in the game because it's a wrestling promotion and EWR is a wrestling promotion simulator. Pride FC is included in the game because it simulates the cross-over (in Japan) between puroresu and MMA. Also again to clarify this point, having 'shooting' ticked will not make someone likely to tour with Battlarts in the game, it's solely related to Pride touring. What is left to answer? I don't get it, this discussion is who should have 'shooting' ticked, I said it's people who have or could realistically (i.e. in real life) be offered a fight contract with Pride (or the UFC), you asked what about guys from Battlarts? I've stated already yes, some of those guys were in Pride, but that shooting doesn't relate to whether someone is likely to participate in worked shooting, or sign with Battlarts - its Pride FC only. ------------------------------------------------ One person's "absurd" is not. The original UFC format was taking the best fighters from one discipline against another. Dan Severn could fight Royce Gracie to see if a martial artist or a wrestler is a better athlete. ------------------------- Obviously i'm subjective, but my statement is firmly rooted in an understanding of contemporary UFC, you seem to think MMA is in a 1990s time-warp. Really though, if you think Eric Bischoff or New Jack are likely to ever appear in the UFC, I don't think we'll ever agree on anything, because to me that is like saying it's possible that I could be in the UFC, sure it's 'possible' - but probable? No. The UFC has not used this format in over a decade, this view of the UFC is archaic. The UFC as it exists in 2013 (this is a 2013 database), pits professional MMA fighters against each other, it hasn't been a 'lets watch a boxer fight a karate guy' type freak show in a long, long time. Neither Tracy Smothers, RVD, Eric Bischoff, New Jack etc. are in the same universe as Dan Severn and Royce Gracie. But then again, I can't see a guy like Dan Severn being offered of a contract in the UFC today either, as the sport is professional now, and Dan is 55 years old (at least according to cagematch.net ) -------------------------- K-1 and PRIDE were more refined (due to the issues early UFC faced with being "barbaric" as US Senator of Arizona John McCain put it) but there were still kickboxers who would fight with other disciplines. I am not saying every worker should have shooting ability ticked but it shouldn't be a short few who have participated in UFC and PRIDE. Why not include toughman in there? Toughman was virtually the same as Brawl For All. ------------------------- Yes, K-1 included kickboxers because K-1 was a kickboxing promotion, it featured kickboxing matches exclusively. Pride also featured kickboxers because professional kickboxers are quasi-MMA fighters in their own right. But what Pride did not do was feature pro-wrestlers from the US who did a kick-boxing course in their local gym, or a pro-wrestler from the US who learned karate as a teenager. How many former Pride FC fighters fit that criteria, your criteria? Zero. The distinction between someone who is a professional fighter and/or has the training/skill level necessary to participate in a professional MMA fight, and someone who doesn't should be quite obvious. None of those guys in my fantasy UFC card meet that threshold. Also considering many of those guys are very old, Bischoff is 56, they should be excluded automatically. The UFC does not hire 56 year olds, period. Because competing in toughman doesn't make you likely to sign a UFC contract? Ditto for Brawl For All. Unless someone is likely to appear in the UFC in the future, not could maybe, but likely, they don't qualify for the tick, because the tick is designed to simulate people like that only. Since *deep breath* the tick is only meant to be given to people who would have signed with Pride if it still existed. ---------------------------------- And you seem to be continually ducking my question about BattleArts no matter how many times I ask does it rely on shooting technique like Pride does. Unless there is a Japanese Touring group criteria document that I am missing, I have never heard how say Toryumon (now Dragon Gate) gets one guy and another promotion say BattleArts gets another while PRIDE gets someone else entirely. ---------------------------------------------- I'm not 'ducking' in anyway whatsoever, this question involves me repeating myself over and over and explaining the same concept in 10 different ways before I can move on. You already know what Battlarts style is, since you were the one to bring it up? Why would you need me to answer a question about what its technique is? For the nth time, Pride isn't about 'shooting technique' it's MMA. You already said you know that Bati Bati is worked shoot so why are you asking me to explain the relationship between their styles to you over and over? Yes the fake-MMA style is similar to the MMA style, but whether their style is similar isn't relevant to the discussion - that was my point. Of course something that is an imitation will be similar to the original. Yes some of the Bati Bati guys worked in Pride and competed in legit MMA fights. Yes many of the Bati Bati guys should have shooting ticked as I suggest many posts ago when I posted a small list of Japanese fighters who had competed in Pride. No, the 'shooting tick' doesn't affect who will tour with Battlarts in the game. As for the latter part of your statement, it's not my fault the game is designed this way. It's also not my fault if you don't understand how the game works or my explanation of it, i'm trying really hard here. I would hazard a guess that the reason why touring with Pride FC is treated differently to Dragon Gate or Battlarts is because unlike these Pride FC isn't pro-wrestling, and so only a special group of people in the data should be eligible to tour there, because its not a worked fighting style - it requires a specific set of skills independant of pro-wrestling that few pro-wrestlers have.. Pride FC is in the game to simulate cross-over pro-wrestlers/MMA stars, is a Japanese company, and designed mainly for Japanese workers to simulate the Japanese pro-wrestling industry and its relationship with MMA. It's a feature designed for Japan basically. The game views (correctly) Battlarts and Dragon Gate as pro-wrestling, so the eligibility to tour there is based on pro-wrestling skills (the shooting tick is irrelevant there), where as Pride FC is a MMA company in a pro-wrestling world, and so wrestling skills are not relevant. Rather it scans the data and selects any worker with 'shooting' ticked to decide who will tour with Pride. This is the only time the game recognises or uses the shooting tick in any way. That is why instead of ticking shooting for anyone we think has any martials knowledge, we actually need to be thinking, would it be realistic for this person to be signed to fight in Pride or the UFC?

I think i'm going to cry. Lucky work is super slow right now so I can prolong this conversation to another page Maybe this could all be split out of the thread? I dunno... anyway; 1.) Battlarts isn't really relevant, we're talking about Pride FC (or UFC) fighting, or realistic options for these only. Get all that other stuff away from this conversation, it's just confusing the point. But, yes some of those guys appeared in Pride. 2.) It's because it's meant soley to control who gets offered a contract to fight with Pride, a MMA promotion for MMA fighters, not pro-wrestlers --> hence it's meant for martial artists only. The 'shooting tick' exists solely so the game engine knows who could realistically end up there, precisely to avoid the absurd situation of having Eric Bischoff fighting Tito Ortiz in a legit MMA fight. So yeah, I disagree that there is a greater than 0% chance Eric Bischoff will ever fight in the UFC, I mean come on - the guy is like 55 at least? And it's probably been how long since his Karate background was relevant? 30 years? Like you can't be serious? New Jack? Hardcore Holly? I chose those people specifically because they are absurd and should never be considered. If you think any of thoese people are likely to end up on a UFC card anytime in the future, I have to question whether or not you watch the UFC or know what MMA is? When was the last time UFC signed a 50+ year old who probably learned Karate at a local school when he was like a teenager? Or an unfit former garbage wrestler with no MMA training whatsoever? This seems like you're just trolling me now...

In this example I'll substitute Pride FC for UFC since I think more people understand what UFC is, and Pride FC occupied the same status within Japan whilst it existed. If you tick 'shooting' for a worker in EWR it means they become eligible to be signed to tour with Pride [read: the UFC] on a fight contract. On the current treatment of shooting, how realistic does this card look to you? UFC 167 Location: Las Vegas Fight Card: Undercard 1.) 2 Cold Scorpio vs. Buff Bagwell 2.) New Jack vs. Dolph Ziggler 3.) Eric Bischoff vs. Jonathan Coachman Main Card: 4.) AJ Styles vs. Elix Skipper 5.) Hardcore Holly vs. James Storm 7.) Randy Orton vs. RVD 8.) Georges St-Pierre vs. Johny Hendricks (for the UFC Welterweight Championship) UFC Heavyweight Championship - Cain vs JDS IV! 9.) Cain Velasquez vs. Junior Dos Santos ------------------------ All of these guys currently have 'shooting' ticked, this would be the result in game, although replace some of the american workers with actual Pride guys mostly likely Japanese or actual american MMA fighters like Mark Coleman, or Kevin Randleman. I don't think we'll be seeing The Stro or Tracy Smothers vs. Tito Ortiz at UFC 169.

I'm thinking I need to make my posts shorter because it seems like no one is reading them I'll say all of this one more time, but please bear in mind this is the fourth time on this thread page I've had to repeat the same information and yet the same responses come back repeating the same misconceptions about what this featuer does in EWR. I thought this was going to be a super simple thing to explain, as there was a basic misunderstanding taking place, albeit a perfectly reasonable one. People assumed (logically!) that the 'shooting tick' was a measure of someones ability to 'shoot' or whether they have ever trained in some way in a martial art. It doesn't. The only effect it has in the game is to determine if Pride FC would sign them to fight. Apologies for the long post, but multiple people have responded and I thought I would give it one more try to explain... *deep breath* Fusionfx says: --------- 1. ) Only argument I need right now is that anybody that has had MMA or Boxing training of any kind(mainly the ones mkpunk listed), deserves shooting ticked. 2. )Edit: And another thing snakesonaplane, because some of the guys you're saying shouldn't have shooting ticked, should they have their technical skills dropped? ---------------------------- 1.) Although that is a common sense understanding of something called 'shooting' in a wrestling game, it's not actually how the 'tick' works in the game world, it's not that in-depth or impactful. As previously stated, the 'shooting tick' is not a measure of a workers real-life shooting ability or experience or knowledge of MMA techniques. The 'shooting tick' serves only one purpose, and that is to determine whether the individual worker in question will ever be offered a contract to tour with Pride FC (a Japanese UFC equivalent). I've explained in great detail in three previous posts who would be likely to be offered a Pride contract, but in short it's only a handful of workers in the data set. 2.) No, as I explained the 'shooting tick' is not an indicator of a workers ability to 'shoot' or perform a certain style, like put on a great submission or fake MMA fight. It only determines if Pride FC will offer that worker a touring contract in-game. Whether or not someone has the 'tick' should have zero impact on their technical or any other skills, as the tick is a barometer of whether they are likely to offered a contract to fight in real MMA pride only, it has nothing to do with worked skills or matches. 1.) Actually, looking at who has had actual MMA fights (or really high level combat skills) is basically the only realistic way to determine if some would be likely to be offered a fight contract by a MMA company, I mean, generally that is generally who MMA companies sign to contracts no? MMA fighters. The data-set is not set in 2004 so our ability to predict the future really isn't relevant. Sure when Brock debuted in the WWE no one would have known he would be a UFC champion, but so what? If someone doesn't have the 'shooting tick' but starts an MMA career it would simply be a matter of giving them the 'tick' to reflect this. Its against the purpose of the 'tick' to just give heaps of people with no MMA fighting experience the ability to tour with Pride, when approaching 95% of them would never come within a mile of a MMA company because they are not MMA fighters and never have tried to be. You're right Akebono is not a real MMA fighter, he was signed by Pride as a freak-show like Giant Silva (these guys are the exception to the rule). The only reason he appeared in Pride is because a.) he got paid a lot as he was a famous sumo wrestler, b.) Pride was a Japanese company and in Japan sumo like Akebono are highly respected and regarded as legit tough guys. The fact a successful sumo appeared in a Japanese MMA company speaks to the cultural context of Japan, Sumo and MMA in Japan, rather than any more general point that would justify including non-Japanese, non-sumo, untrained guys as potential participants in Pride. Please read my previous posts on this page for more explanation. 2.) Just to reiterate no female should have 'shooting' ticked, because in the game women can't be offered contracts with Pride so giving them the 'tick' is completely redundant. 3.) No, they shouldn't because i'm pretty sure when you say 'legit fighting training/experience' you mean any pro-wrestler that has done a BJJ class or was at one time an amateur wrestler. 'Experience' or 'training' in something for fun, or to augment your ability to put on a worked wrestling match by using cool looking grapples, or kicks does not make it probable that that person will be offered a fight contract to tour with a major MMA company, i.e. CM Punk will never appear in Pride. 4.) I think it's pretty clear that a.) you haven't read my posts explaining how this feature actually works before replying, and b.) in general, you don't understand how the feature works. As I have already stated women can't be offered contracts with Pride, no woman should have the 'shooting tick'. mkpunk did you read my post? If not, why are you replying to it? Sorry I don't mean to sound snarky, but i must admit i'm becoming a bit frustrated at the level of repetition required of me here. Like I understand why people are making these suggestions, because really that is a logical conclusion to draw... but the 'shooting tick' has a much more discrete function in the game, and has no bearing on a workers skill or past experiences. 1.) Although I agree, I could see those guys working in a worked shoot promotion in Japan, this is sadly - nothing to do with the 'shoot tick'. 2.) Actually no, that isn't the purpose of 'shooting' in EWR at all, like there is obviously cross-over with people who have had shoot-fighting experience, but specifically shooting in EWR simply means whether the worker is likely to be signed to a fight contract with Pride, a legit fight rather than shoot fight organisation. If you had read my post you would have seen the part where I explained that despite appearances the 'shooting tick' actually isn't a measure of a persons ability to 'shoot' in a pro-wrestling sense at all. The only thing that this feature affects is whether a worker can or will be offered a contract to tour with Pride FC, a defunct but in its time, completely legit and large MMA company based in Japan... basically Japanese UFC without the cage. I don't see CM Punk ever appearing in the UFC, people who appear in the UFC have dedicated their lives to train for MMA or if not, at least several years. Exceptions being freak guys who have competed at the super elite level of other combat sports, super elite level, not college or high school wrestling. 3.) As explained previously, 'shooting' isn't actually about shooting ability, a lot of people have ability. I have ability, but the chances of me being offered a fight contract with Pride FC are so low that they approach zero. It breaks the realism of 'simulation' to suggest that virtually anyone with any level or knowledge of MMA (or worse, things that arent even MMA like college wrestling), is a chance to turn up fighting in Pride FC (or UFC for comparison). By virtue of their inclusion in a database as 'pro-wrestlers' for a wrestling simulation game, the overwhelming majority of the workers in any given EWR data-set are not likely to feature for a large MMA company like Pride FC (which to reiterate, is the only consequence for ticking 'shooting' in EWR), as these people are pro-wrestlers, and have not trained sufficiently, possess the skill or physical qualities necessary to compete in MMA. The 'best' argument, the only relevant argument, as to whether someone should have shooting ticked is it likely they could compete in Pride? If the answer is no, no tick. If the answer is no and there is a tick then you're just ignoring the game mechanics for no reason.

I think the situation is pretty clear - ultimately this is not about peoples level or type of training - it's about whether or not they would be likely to turn up in Pride FC (if the company was still around), so lets say the UFC, as a substitute. That's it, I think it just confuses the matter to bring up other things like so-and-so did this Gracie workshop, knowing MMA techniques is very different to being at the level required to be signed by Pride [the 'shoot' stat in a nut-shell]... and being signed by Pride (UFC?) is the only thing we need to care about when making this determination. That is literally the only relevant criteria for this stat. Can I see any of those guys competing in the Pride (or UFC) in future? No. Do I think even if given that it's unlikely, that they would 'qualify' to compete in the UFC in some hypothetical universe? No. Knowing MMA techniques is a different universe to being signed by Pride FC to compete in a real fight. These people dedicated years to training not a few hours, or as a hobby. As I stated in my last post, 'MMA inspired' training isn't sufficient - otherwise virtually anyone could have 'shoot' ticked, it's not about how many BJJ workshops you attended under a Gracie, have you competed in Pride? Would Pride sign you in future? No? No tick. You have the wrong idea if you think it's about level of training, shooting ability etc. 'Shoot' = Would Pride FC sign them to fight? 'Shoot' /=/ Can this person 'shoot'? I understand that there a hundreds of guys with the box ticked already, and looking at this list only quickly you can see that people in the past have applied the second definition, and not the first (thinking it was a measure of MMA knowledge rather than understanding its purpose in game). There are too many people on that list to mention here that obviously would never work for Pride or be offered a contract to fight there, these people should be obvious. Basically the way the stat has been used in the past runs against its intention in the game, it came to be used in a certain way, but that doesn't mean we should keep using it incorrectly. I mean, Pride FC doesn't even sign female fighters, and there are dozens of women on that list - it's pretty clear the stat has been used wrong and people don't understand its purpose or what should qualify someone to have it. Just because a lot of people have it that shouldn't, doesn't mean we should continue to hand it out on false grounds.

RE: The Bati Bati style or UWF-style, yes a lot of those guys would definitely have 'shoot' ticked as they have competed in legitimate MMA fights that were not supposed to be worked. The list of Japanese guys who need the tick is much longer for the reasons you stated, and just due to the different culture of puroresu, and its storied relationship with MMA. Some Japanese wrestlers who have competed in Pride for example: Alexander Otsuka Hirotaka Yokoi Katsushisa Fuji Kazunari Murakami Kazushi Sakuraba Kazuyuki Fujita Kiyoshi Tamura Michiyoshi Ohara Naoki Sano Naoya Ogawa Nobuhiko Takada Tadao Yasuda Wataru Sakata Kendo Kashin Enson Inoue Yoshiaki Yatsu Yoshihiro Takayama Yoji Ano Takashi Sugiura ------------------------------ None of the american guys you mentioned there should have 'shoot' ticked though. As I was trying to establish in my previous post (to paraphrase Brock Lesnar) there is a meaningful difference between doing a BJJ class at your local gym (or the Inoki Gym in the case of American Dragon), and training to compete in MMA, or otherwise training at the skill and intensity level required to compete in MMA. The majority of wrestlers in the game world do not meet this criteria, and in general very few non-Japanese workers will. If it's still not clear enough who qualifies for this 'tick' then consider this question in regards to the worker you have in mind... could you see them competing in the UFC? If no, they shouldn't get a tick. Again there are some rare exceptions for guys like Kurt Angle, who are extremely high level practitioners in a related sport; but these people really are rare. To suggest that someone should get the 'shoot' tick because they have done 'MMA inspired' training is like saying anyone who studies Karate, or BJJ in their spare time is likely to get signed to fight for Pride FC... that's not just unrealistic, it's preposterous. Pride FC was a big big organisation in it's time, equivalent to the UFC, to tour with Pride FC should be an exclusive and rare trait in any worker in the database (as it is in real life). I don't see the point in trying to sneak in as many workers with that trait as possible, it's not a game feature that is designed to be controversial. In the vast majority of cases the 'tick' should be on people who have already competed in MMA (or Pride), the guys with no history of MMA fighting should be a small minority of the cohort with the 'tick'.

Agreed, but I also think that the 'amateur wrestling' = 'shooting' in EWR argument needs to be nipped in the bud; I'm suprised it last more than a couple of posts. In EWR, the 'shoot' box (as was already pointed out on the previous page but ignored for some reason?), only affects the eligibility of a worker to go on tour with Pride FC. If you don't know what Pride FC is/was, it was a MMA organisation based in Japan similar to the UFC. So it's not really a measure of a persons 'shooting' ability (in a wrestling sense) per se, and certainly shouldn't be treated that way. So for example, if anyone in the WWE besides Brock Lesnar or Alberto del Rio has 'shooting' ticked there's a problem, Brock is a former UFC Champion... when Pride FC existed he could have easily gone on tour there, to be clear it's not because he has an amateur wrestling background. Alberto del Rio has actually competed in Pride FC. I think the confusion some people seem to be having is that an amateur wrestling background could in theory give someone the ability to 'shoot' on their opponent (with no amateur wrestling skills) in a worked wrestling match, i.e. man-handle them, make them tap; essentially turn the grappling into a 'real' contest to make them look stupid, hurt them etc. But that is not what the 'shoot' ability is for; it's soley used to determine eligibility for touring with Pride FC. There's really very little subjectivity necessary in that type of determination. So really if we want to make a decision as to whether someone deserves the 'tick' for shooting we need only ask one question; have they ever had a competitive MMA fight? If the answer is no, then in 99 per cent of cases the box should not be ticked. The only exceptions I could see to that would be if they had seriously trained in MMA but never had an actual fight for some reason. Or potentially someone like Kurt Angle, with Olympic level amateur wrestling (or Judo) ability, who could with a little training compete in a MMA fight. Amateur wrestling is not equivalent to an MMA background, and amateur wrestling bouts are not MMA fights. A guy who has an 'amateur wrestling' background who went on tour with Pride FC would likely go home with a concussion. Pride FC would never bring in pro-wrestlers who 'did a bit of amateur wrestling in college/highschool' etc. to compete in a MMA fight. In short, unless someone has trained actually for MMA there is no way they'd be allowed anywhere near Pride. Edit: Here's a list of non-Japanese guys who have competed in Pride and wrestling, or wrestling and otherwise have MMA training/fights under their belt: Ken Shamrock Josh Barnett (not sure if he is in the database) Don Frye (not sure if he is in the database) Brock Lesnar Batista Bobby Lashley Nathan Jones Giant Silva Dos Caras Jr./Alberto del Rio Bob Sapp Dan Severn Butterbean (not sure if he is in the database) Quinton Jackson (not sure if he is in the database) Tito Ortiz (not sure if he is in the database) Sean O'Haire Ron Waterman (not sure if he is in the database) Tank Abbott (not sure if he is in the database) There's a much longer list of Japanese guys who would be eligible for Pride that I could post if necessary.

Sorry to beat a dead Buffalo, but in response to the suggestion of making his secondary finisher the Buffalo Driver... I've looked through two years of Osaka Pro results (his home base), and he hasn't won a match with that move within that time frame; only a Lariat or his Backdrop Suplex like I mentioned. Okay imma run away now.

I'm not sure where you're going with this though, are you making the argument for keeping Japanese promotions on a regular schedule or just raising logistical issues that should be addressed if the schedule is changed? If it's the former I don't understand why, as the touring mechanics are designed to be used in Japan, not using it there doesn't make any sense - it's why it exists in the game at all; not to mention its a more accurate simulation of the region etc. As for the rules of touring promotions and so forth, there are some significant differences between TEW 10 and TEW 13 - as such none of the issues you raise are present, in TEW 13 Japanese touring companies can offer touring contracts to Japanese (i.e. native) workers [just tested it], and as the poster above stated negotiating with workers on touring contracts isn't a problem either... though I don't think if either of those were not the case it would be a good reason to keep a regular schedule either. If NJPW was to be simmed correctly they would be a national promotion and all workers (including Tanahashi) with a few exceptions would be on written, not open contracts, set to expire in January 2015 (as NJPW, and some other puro promotions [AJPW?] utilise 1-year contracts that are reviewed annually). I believe Okada's contract is multi-year (3 years), and regular outsiders like Tanaka or Kota Ibushi, would be on open contracts with loyalty to their home-bases, Z1 and DDT respectively. So the majority of NJPW workers should be on written contracts, and should not be open to be signed by anyone as in real life this is not the case. Outside appearances could be managed with working agreements, as they would be in real-life if other promotions wanted to use NJPW guys. Most of the workers, including Tanahashi, should also have loyalty set to NJPW.

In reply to TheWho87, Yes, I agree the game can't simulate real-life perfectly for that and a few other reasons... from a mechanics point of view I think it's because if a company could tour 12 months a year it might actually be a bit OP, and break the game balance... as it is a touring schedule is already superior to regular schedule (from a game point of view) in a few ways, like recent fortunes being reset, more matches meaning more experience, stat gains etc. It's not perfect, but touring schedules are designed for Japan and to not implement them for minor inconsistencies, whilst overlooking the greater inconsistency of say NJPW in this example, running on a regular schedule and thus only 12 shows a year makes the choice, for me, a straight-forward one. It's not ideal by any means, but there is no better option. As for the Tanahashi example, it is possible (I just tested it as I wasn't sure!) for CMLL to book Tanahashi in the middle of a tour on a show if they have a working agreement and the date does not clash with a tour date, which is exactly how it works in real-life, so that's actually quite doable and realistic. As for what months should be set to be touring months, as it can't be 12 months I personally find what months are selected to not be of much significance, as in real-life there is no down time, any period of down-time chosen in the game for these promotions would be an arbitrary decision up to the mod maker. I think as long as the promotions are set to run as much as game allows (10 months of the year), and all the major significant events are set in the data (like Wrestle Kingdom etc.), what months the tours take place in aren't important.

Good suggestion with the Shimmer events btw, I missed that. That would fit really well, and considering the volume of shows they actually hold, it's a lot more true to life. Just on their schedule, I don't really consider their tapings as multiple shows, TEW doesn't really allow that, so really if you want to play Shimmer you could sim holding multiple 'events' within a single show day (like in real-life), whilst having the game settings at once a month like you suggest. Either way I agree it makes more sense to set them as a regular schedule rather than touring, 44 shows is like more shows than Shimmer has held in their entire existence! I don't know anything about the UK scene so i'm not really in a place to offer much of value, but can you think of any other way their schedule could be simulated without setting them to be a touring company?

I'm not actually using cpts data at the moment (i'm building my own), so not sure what all of his settings are... but if it's correct that none of those promotions in the current data are set to be touring then, yes, they should most definitely be. As i'm sure you're aware the purpose of worker loyalty and touring features in TEW are specifically to simulate the Japanese region; every promotion in Japan with the exception of the smallest (specifically Joshi promotions like you mentioned, or LLPW-X; or OPW which like you said run weekly instead), should be set to be touring. As you stated the game doesn't simulate this perfectly as in real-life a tour run by NJPW (national) consists of much more shows per month(s) than a tour say by a regional promotion like Z1; but there is simply no better or more realistic option than setting them up to run on a touring schedule, as this is how they are supposed to run in-game (for which the game mechanics were created!), and this is the closest possible (however imperfect the game implements the variety of touring styles) to how the majority of promotions in the region run in the real world. That said, I also agree about Shimmer, and although I've never head of C*4 I know they're not a Japanese company, and as such neither they or Shimmer would be touring since this feature, like worker loyalty, is designed only to be implemented within Japan, period. By setting up the majority of promotions as touring companies it would also make the inclusion of recently used gaijin in the data (such as the suggestions for BJW above) less of an issue, as in the game-world these contracts would run their course in a matter of months and then from that point on the AI would sign new (or the same) gaijin at their discretion. This would mean including current gaijin in the data would make it very up-to-date without having the problem of Jake Crist appearing perpetually for BJW when in real-life he would be gone in a month or two, as he is based in the USA.

I'm not sure if Obaryion should be added yet as he is a gaijin, and has only wrestled twice for the promotion ever, and both times this month in the tag league- so it's unclear whether or not he's going to hang around in the medium term, it's up to cpt. to decide if it's worth putting him in now I guess. Also, add Kinya Oyanagi to the list for the regular army for MPW. ------------------------- With BJW tag teams, Brahman Kei and Brahman Shu should be called the Brahman Brothers not Kowloon, as the latter is a defunct unit name for MPW and not the teams name itself. Kowloon as a unit is also not in BJW, and is inactive in MPW (replaced with Asura). With the general worker list and gaijin in Japan, I'm not sure about adding the CZW workers such as Irish Airborne, Havoc, or the WXW guys as they are not official members of the BJW roster and will only be appearing on the odd tour. As a general rule for adding gaijin to puroresu companies, I only think we should add people who meet one or more of these conditions (though cpt. has discretion to add anyone he pleases obviously): -Live in Japan -Hold titles in the promotion -Wrestle in Japan almost exclusively (or clearly have contracts, like the NJPW gaijin). -Or who have appeared in a significant number of consecutive tours, as opposed to spot shows. Otherwise the rosters will become outdated quickly, and/or just require more regular maintenance than necessary. Someone in the recent past like Masada, could be added to BJW because he wrestled their on a consistent basis for a long time and achieved success. Another example would be Super Crazy in NOAH, or until recently Ricky Marvin, though he appears to have returned to Mexico for the time being. However, other people who appear only sporadically, and especially if they have just been brought in to participate in a tournament, need not be added. It's like adding all the foreign workers to the old CHIKARA after ever years World Trios Tournament. In any case, their contracts should be specified as 'touring' - and I would even suggest maybe putting them in a separate list to the regular roster so as not confuse their status, or the mod maker as to the appropriate contract type. In this case, I would add Irish Airborne and Havoc as touring, but not with the WXW guys since they haven't appeared much this year at all. -------------------------------------------- Some stuff for W1 Current outsiders for W1: Kohei Sato (still a player but he's currently injured for at least 3 months probably)-outsider Add new unit, DESPERADO (heel): Masayuki Kono - Leader Kohei Sato Ryouji Sai KAZMA Sakamoto Tag teams Make all Stack of Arms tag teams inactive Add Ryota Hama & Yasufumi Nakanoue - Low Add KAZMA SAKAMOTO & Masayuki Kono - low Add KAZMA SAKAMOTO & Ryouji Sai - low Add Ryouji Sai and Masayuki Kono - low Add Kohei Sato and Ryouji Sai - High -------------------------------------------------------------- Dragon Gate Add new unit, Monster Express (face) Shingo Takagi, Akira Tozawa, Masato Yoshino, Uhaa Nation, Ricochet and Syachihoko BOY. ---------------------- NOAH Add tag team, Crazy Dynasty (Super Crazy & Pesadilla) - Low.