Ultimate Fighter 10

[Rich]

... and the results of the bouts ? Oh yeah ...

This isn't professional wrestling, it's professional fighting. Big difference.

While this is very true is it the whole story? There is no doubt that entertaining fighters even if they risk losing are in more of a demand by casual viewers than a guy who wins every fight but is dull to watch. Case in point the Anderson Silva vs Thales Leites match from earlier in the year. Leites went to his back and stopped the match from flowing and it was horrible to watch and there was a massive negative reaction from the fans for it for essentially fighting a very clever match, he knew he would lose standing against Silva, but on the ground he stood a chance.

Dana White while understanding that a guy who wins fights no matter the method deserves a chance, like he has given Nelson on the Ultimate Fighter, understands that exciting fighters make him money, much as the show is a vehicle for Kimbo this season. We all beleive and quite rightly that Kimbo will be fighting in the UFC proper very soon, not because he will win The Ultimate Fighter, but because he will draw money. Roy Nelson at the minute will not draw a huge level of money, he's boring to watch in my opinion and there are very few fighters I would look forward to and pay to see him fight.

You say that this is professional fighting, and not pro-wrestling but UFC definitely has an element of the spectacle about much like the WWE does. White promotes to make money and as much as possible, and as such the way that fights are put together to maximise the drawing power of the card. For example the largest drawing PPVs at the time of Liddell vs Coutures was because these are two guys everyone wanted to see fight, legends of the sport. The same can be said of pro-wrestling whenever well known wrestlers fought for the first time. Another card that set records, the second Shamrock vs Ortiz fight was the first one to draw over a million PPV buys was based on the personal animosity between the two and was compelling due to this and drew in casual fans. The same can be said of the WWE with the Austin/McMahon feud in 1998. The same would have been said about a Rashad vs Rampage fight if it had been happening Post-TUF, yes UFC isn't prowrestling but it has learnt a lot about promotion from it.

tl:dr version - Roy Nelson is boring, UFC has learnt lessons (in promotion) from WWE

[HailtotheYo]

I'm not disregarding the showmanship aspect and the promotion standpoint of this, but rather making the point that right now it means dick all. At this point there "character" is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This isn't the UFC though, this is UFC bootcamp. Who gives a fuck how they are in the sweatshop ? When (if) he gets to the UFC, THEN Dana does his job. You give him an angle, you cast a certain light, you do your magic as a promotor to get the people to give a fuck about him. You've already got the people watching thanks to the Kimbo inclusion. As a professional fighting organization your first priority is people that can actually fight. Everything else is secondary.

Take another lesson from WWE. People shat all over Trips and Cena in the not to distant past because they 'weren't beating anybody.' Or how about boxing ? Ask Lennox Lewis about falling off the map thanks to no real competition in the Heavyweight division. Dana White/UFC's job is to produce fighters first and worry about marketing them second. How many times have you seen a wrestler that was good have a gimmick that blew ass ? Fans let 'em keep coming back because they were good. You get a shit wrestler with a fan-dabi-dozi gimmick and people will only let it fly for so long.

In the end who'll draw more money ? A Kimbo that loses 2 out of 4 matches, or a Nelson that goes 6-1 ? UFC fans aren't idiots.

[Rich]

I'm not disregarding the showmanship aspect and the promotion standpoint of this, but rather making the point that right now it means dick all. At this point there "character" is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This isn't the UFC though, this is UFC bootcamp. Who gives a fuck how they are in the sweatshop ? When (if) he gets to the UFC, THEN Dana does his job. You give him an angle, you cast a certain light, you do your magic as a promotor to get the people to give a fuck about him. You've already got the people watching thanks to the Kimbo inclusion. As a professional fighting organization your first priority is people that can actually fight. Everything else is secondary.

Take another lesson from WWE. People shat all over Trips and Cena in the not to distant past because they 'weren't beating anybody.' Or how about boxing ? Ask Lennox Lewis about falling off the map thanks to no real competition in the Heavyweight division. Dana White/UFC's job is to produce fighters first and worry about marketing them second. How many times have you seen a wrestler that was good have a gimmick that blew ass ? Fans let 'em keep coming back because they were good. You get a shit wrestler with a fan-dabi-dozi gimmick and people will only let it fly for so long.

In the end who'll draw more money ? A Kimbo that loses 2 out of 4 matches, or a Nelson that goes 6-1 ? UFC fans aren't idiots.

Ok, not again not entirely disagreeing with you... Just that in the end like prowrestling a chunk of the audience will be idiots (present company excluded). Second surely the first priority for Dana White et al is to have a marketable guy who can fight, they go hand in hand as a fighting organisation, especially one the size and scope of UFC you will always have very able fighters. To have a guy who is boring with no personality and no character at all, but who wins 80 to 90% of their fights is fan-dabi-dozi, but if fans think he is shit and his fights are boring they will not follow him (Tim Sylvia comes to mind here, his fights got shat on ALL the time) and wont draw money, but if you have a guy who cannot fight but has oodles of charisma and character he will be good for a couple of fights and draw big money before fans start to shit on him for "not being the real deal" and lose interest. But if you have a guy who has character and can fight then you get the jackpot, somebody who can be there for years who will bring in the big money, guys like Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, Brock Lesnar, etc...

In the end everything else including the fighters' abilities is secondary to the almighty dollar. Zuffa do not care what the standard of fight is alsong as interest in the UFC grows or at least doesn't dwindle as then they can continue to make money. Lets not kid ourselves in to thinking everything is about the competition even for the fighters, if it was we wouldn't see the contract disputes.

[HailtotheYo]

Of course the dollar is the end line for everything in today's world.

I just see the "marketable guy that can fight" approach differently. I see the can fight portion much more important than the marketing in terms of the UFC considering that fighting is what ultimately has to happen.

It's a fine line but for me erring on the side of someone that can actually fight will always be how I see it. Sure, you might have to stretch pretty far here and there to make someone look good (before he gets in the ring) but there is no way to substitute anything for him once the fight starts. I mean sure, you'll get your Sylvia's but you've also got your Royce Gracie's ... that guy was the Lance Storm of UFC. It didn't matter though, he could fight and he sold. Storm was always bland as fuck but he was fan-dabi-dozi in the ring and that's what mattered to everyone.

You can create a character for anyone, but you can't make a fighter out of everyone.

The difference for the UFC though is in the "able" fighter comment you made. Sure, in the grand scope of things anyone that gets face time with UFC is an able fighter. But at that point we're not talking about just being an "able" fighter anymore. The guys on the PPV's need to be in the top 10% out there, not just able.

I completely see and do agree to a point about the marketable aspect of the fighter. I just see the ability to fight as a more important piece of the puzzle in a fighting league.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Yeah, but HTTK...Kimbo. Tito Ortiz. Chuck Liddell in his last couple fights. Ken Shamrock in his last run. Tank Abbott in the old days. UFC's biggest stars are often people who can't fight all that well.

[Rich]

Yeah, but HTTK...Kimbo. Tito Ortiz. Chuck Liddell in his last couple fights. Ken Shamrock in his last run. Tank Abbott in the old days. UFC's biggest stars are often people who can't fight all that well.

This was the exact thing I was getting at, but I couldn't think of anyone other than Tank to use as examples

[Captain Kirk]

Yeah, but HTTK...Kimbo. Tito Ortiz. Chuck Liddell in his last couple fights. Ken Shamrock in his last run. Tank Abbott in the old days. UFC's biggest stars are often people who can't fight all that well.

Tito Ortiz can't fight well? :lmao:

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Not as well as his push would have you think, no. Other than Wanderlei Silva, I'd argue he's never had an impressive victory - Belfort is inconsistent, Cote isn't top-flight, and Shamrock was washed up by their first fight, never mind the second and third. And he's been beaten fairly soundly any time he's faced real competition.

[Captain Kirk]

For his time when he came in he was a cut above the rest barring Frank Shamrock. Pre-back problems Ortiz was a good fighter.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Captain Kirk

[HailtotheYo]

Yeah, but HTTK...Kimbo. Tito Ortiz. Chuck Liddell in his last couple fights. Ken Shamrock in his last run. Tank Abbott in the old days. UFC's biggest stars are often people who can't fight all that well.

You're kind of showing what I'm talking about here though.

Tito = was damn good when he came in. Everybody else caught up. He hurt his back. When he lost his legit ability to fight at the top, people quit buying into him. Ditto Shamrock, as you pointed out his last run. People shat on it, however there was a time when he was indeed the baddest man around.

Lidell fell off the map abruptly, but there was indeed a time when he was at the top of the mountain. You even stated, his last couple of fights.

None of those three guys were always under the lable of marginal fighter. They had times when they actually were top fighters.

Tank is the only one that really fights the can't fight bill (as he never could). He had a dynamite right hand and knocked people into next year. The moment people got past it though, he was done.

[Gene Kiniski]

Ahem. Roy Nelson ladies and gentlemen.

[Jayzon]

One thing I learned from this season of TUF: I definitely do NOT wantto see Rashad and Rampage in a debate. They both have the same technique - come up with a "witty" line, and repeat that same line over, and over, and over, and over again. Like Rampage in the last episode: "Make me a bitch right now". He must've said it about 30 times! Fucking infuriating.

Kinda bummed to see Marcus the Darkness not make it to the finals, but Schaub was clearly the better man. Hope he wins. It's nice that Marcus decided to continue his fighting career after all. Can't wait to see him fight Mitrione in the Finale. And while Roy Nelson did have his best fight yet in the semifinals, I still hate his guts. And there's alot to hate right there.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Jayzon

[Rich]

I feel wrong in saying this, but the Ultimate Fighter final is probably the match I am least excited about on this card.

I wanna see Kimbo fight again, I wanna see Marcus knock out Matt Mitrione & I wanna see Hamill have a good outing, but I am not that excited about seeing Brendan vs Roy... I actually find it an anticlimatic fight

[Hailtothechimp]

God, I hope Schaub whoops the crap out of Big Country. I was rooting for Marcus the whole way but he just couldn't that fight with Schaub and he got caught. I think Roy is going to win though. He'll come out and do what he's done the entire show and thats take Schaub down and lay on him.

I cannot wait to see Marcus put Mitrion on his ass though. I think I am looking forward to that fight the most.

[Captain Kirk]

Am I the only one that thinks if Mitrione keeps his distance he might KO Marcus?

[Gabriel]

Am I the only one that thinks if Mitrione keeps his distance he might KO Marcus?

Nope.

If he can avoid getting taken to the mat, this is Mitrione's fight. He's got a good chin, and his fists are like bricks hitting guys. He definitely has more natural power than Schaub.

I want to see Marcus win this fight, because he's such a likeable and skilled guy, but my head says Mitrione takes this with a first round TKO.

[Rich]

It will depend on the takedowns entirely. Marcus has taken down everyone in his fights so far and his jiu-jitsu is slick... While Matt is dick on the ground, like McSweeny pointed out he wouldn't know an knee-bar if it hit him in the face, I reckon if Matt doesn't bang him out in the first round, we could be seeing a MArcus win via submission or TKO in round 2.

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

Gutted for Big Baby, such a fan-dabi-dozi guy and certainly unlucky in that fight. Cant wait to see him fight this weekend, I expect a win for him actually.

The Final is shaping up fan-dabi-dozi, but as mentioned, the main fight doesn't interest me much at all. Cant stand Big Bore Country and I'm not a fan of Schaub either. Certainly hyped up for Kimbo though, that's going to be one hell of an explosive fight.

[Guest Mr. Grinch]

...I honestly cannot fathom why so many of you think Kimbo is an exciting fighter. Against Houston Alexander will probably be a decent fight because I doubt either of them want to go to the ground, but put Kimbo against almost anybody else and Nelson/Kimbo is really the best you can hope for.

[ZJ Penn]

He's exciting for a few reasons I'd imagine.

1) You know you'll get a brawl.

2) People buy into his hype.

3) He looks like a mean mf'er.

4) You always want to see how much he's improved (kinda connected to point 2)

5) He's an MMA legend. People get pumped for his fights.

I don't really get behind him like some people do, but he's entertaining for the three minutes his fights last.

Edited December 3, 2009 by ZJ Penn