2011 MLB Season

[MalaCloudy Black]

Alcides Escobar's unconventional play

How.. bizarre.

[The Buscher]

David Wright is now playing shortstop.

And for the first time in his career...Derek Jeter is the 3rd best shortstop in New York.

[sahyder1]

David Wright is now playing shortstop.

And for the first time in his career...Derek Jeter is the 3rd best shortstop in New York.

That Murphy injury looked ugly. Really sucks for him because he's having a very good year with the bat. Getting your knee hurt because someone else doesn't know how to slide is just bad luck.

4th best?

Edited August 7, 2011 by sahyder1

[Meacon Keaton]

You mean guys much younger than him are playing better defense?! Why, that just doesn't seem logical!

This just in: He also has more rings than all three combined.

(Y)

[Trench]

Uhh did Reyes get hurt again? Why is Wright playing shortstop over him?

[sahyder1]

You mean guys much younger than him are playing better defense?! Why, that just doesn't seem logical!

This just in: He also has more rings than all three combined.

(Y)

This just in....Jeter once was young and still wasn't as good defensively as the other guys mentioned. Also...he has played with more talented players around him then the other 3 combined.

Uhh did Reyes get hurt again? Why is Wright playing shortstop over him?

They said it is a hamstring thing. He didn't hobble on his one AB. He didn't do it in the field. No idea when it happened but they pulled him in the 2nd. Turner was playing SS but then Murphy hurt his knee when one of the Braves guys spiked him. so Turner moved back to 2B to make room for Wright at SS.

I know Wright played SS in High School while Zimmerman was the 3B I believe. I don't remember if the Mets drafted Wright as a SS or 3B.

Edited August 7, 2011 by sahyder1

[Panni]

David Wright is now playing shortstop.

And for the first time in his career...Derek Jeter is the 3rd best shortstop in New York.

I assume you're not including Alex Rodriguez in this list.

[Meacon Keaton]

You really want to get into this again? You don't like Jeter. I get it. I don't care, but I get it.

[sahyder1]

You really want to get into this again? You don't like Jeter. I get it. I don't care, but I get it.

A-Rod and Reyes are miles ahead of him defensively. It's not even an argument. Jeter having better guys around him (including A-Rod) is also not even an argument. Kindly stop getting so defensive over your man crush. And it is so obvious that you care since you need to keep bringing it up.

Edited August 7, 2011 by sahyder1

[Meacon Keaton]

You really want to get into this again? You don't like Jeter. I get it. I don't care, but I get it.

A-Rod and Reyes are miles ahead of him defensively. It's not even an argument. Jeter having better guys around him (including A-Rod) is also not even an argument. Kindly stop getting so defensive over your man crush.

It's not a mancrush. It's defending a guy that is a very good baseball player, because you feel the need to take cheapshots constantly, simply because you have some irrational hate for the guy.

Kindly stop being a know-it-all little twat.

[gunnar hendershow]

Jeter never has been elite defensively but he has a flair for the big play and certainly has never been a liability.

He's no Cal Ripken though.

[sahyder1]

There is a good chance that Jorge Posada has played his last game for the Yankees (maybe in the majors?). Girardi has benched him and will be giving playing time to Nunez/Chavez. I would assume Montero will get the call to be full time DH/part time catcher since he is playing great in the minors. I'd guess that Posada gets DFA'd this week.

[naiwf]

I can't let a Jeter hate session go by without stating the obvious, dude would have precisely ZERO rings if he played for that other New York team or just about anyone other than the Red Sox. His intangibles, plus a bunch of HOF caliber teammates, many of whom tested positive for "Vitamin S" and a multi-billion dollar payroll over his career helped him win more rings than any of his actual hitting/fielding/running talents did. The myth of Derek Jeter is better than the actual player, unlike Mariano Rivera who is probably better than he gets credit for which may or may not be hard to believe depending on where you live.

3,000+ hits = all Jeter.

5(+?) rings = not so much.

[Hickey]

There's nobody in the history of baseball that has gotten any rings by being the only good player on the team. Obviously he had other good players around him.

[Meacon Keaton]

And naiwf knows that. It's why Reyes can't win one with the Mets.

[naiwf]

There's nobody in the history of baseball that has gotten any rings by being the only good player on the team. Obviously he had other good players around him.

No one's arguing that, but Jeter gets the Jordan treatment here as though he was the main reason his team won 5 (or more) titles. If you tried to count all of the HOF or Hall of Very Good players he's played with you might be able to field an entire 25 man team. Very few players in the free agency era have played with the caliber of players El Capitan has played with, and that's why he's got 5 titles and guys like Pujols or Bonds likely maxed out at 1 and 0 respectively. Hell, A-Rod is a far better player than Jeter could ever have dreamed of being, and he wasn't able to win but one series in the playoffs until he came to the Yankees. If the Yankees had Pujols, Bonds or A-Rod from the get go and no Jeter, they still have at least 4 rings. You take MJ off of the Bulls and they have 0 appearances in the Finals, much less 6 titles.

Edited August 8, 2011 by naiwf

[Meacon Keaton]

I wasn't giving him the Jordan treatment. When I usually talk about Jeter's accomplishments, I'll bring up his 3000+ hits first. But those three guys' hits combined is more than 3000, so I had to use another combined stat for my argument. >_>

[sahyder1]

There's nobody in the history of baseball that has gotten any rings by being the only good player on the team. Obviously he had other good players around him.

Correction. Not just other good player....better players. I put this up a couple of pages ago but you and Meacon chose to ignore it. On the average year of his career he has been the 4th best player on his team. Some years he was the 6th or 7th best player on his team. To use a basketball analogy from guys who've won a lot in the same time frame I'll use a Lakers example. He's been more of a Fisher/Horry then a Shaq/Kobe.

I'll spoiler tag it here since I just posted this a couple of pages ago.

For the heck of it I just went through year by year and put together a list of guys who had better years on the Yankees.

Derek Jeter

                                                                                                                                     

Year               G    PA   AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB   SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS   TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB  Pos      Awards

1995              15    51   48    5   12   4  1   0    7   0  0   3   11 .250 .294 .375 .669   18   0   0  0  0   0                6

1996             157   654  582  104  183  25  6  10   78  14  7  48  102 .314 .370 .430 .800  250  13   9  6  9   1   *6       RoY-1

1997             159   748  654  116  190  31  7  10   70  23 12  74  125 .291 .370 .405 .775  265  14  10  8  2   0   *6      MVP-24

1998             149   694  626  127  203  25  8  19   84  30  6  57  119 .324 .384 .481 .864  301  13   5  3  3   1   *6     ASMVP-3

1999             158   739  627  134  219  37  9  24  102  19  8  91  116 .349 .438 .552 .989  346  12  12  3  6   5   *6     ASMVP-6

2000             148   679  593  119  201  31  4  15   73  22  4  68   99 .339 .416 .481 .896  285  14  12  3  3   4   *6    ASMVP-10

2001             150   686  614  110  191  35  3  21   74  27  3  56   99 .311 .377 .480 .858  295  13  10  5  1   3   *6    ASMVP-10

2002             157   730  644  124  191  26  0  18   75  32  3  73  114 .297 .373 .421 .794  271  14   7  3  3   2 *6/D          AS

2003             119   542  482   87  156  25  3  10   52  11  5  43   88 .324 .393 .450 .844  217  10  13  3  1   2   *6      MVP-21

2004             154   721  643  111  188  44  1  23   78  23  4  46   99 .292 .352 .471 .823  303  19  14 16  2   1   *6  ASMVP-13GG

2005             159   752  654  122  202  25  5  19   70  14  5  77  117 .309 .389 .450 .839  294  15  11  7  3   3 *6/D    MVP-10GG

2006             154   715  623  118  214  39  3  14   97  34  5  69  102 .343 .417 .483 .900  301  13  12  7  4   4 *6/D ASMVP-2GGSS

2007             156   714  639  102  206  39  4  12   73  15  8  56  100 .322 .388 .452 .840  289  21  14  3  2   3   *6  ASMVP-11SS

2008             150   668  596   88  179  25  3  11   69  11  5  52   85 .300 .363 .408 .771  243  24   9  7  4   0 *6/D        ASSS

2009             153   716  634  107  212  27  1  18   66  30  5  72   90 .334 .406 .465 .871  295  18   5  4  1   4 *6/D ASMVP-3GGSS

2010             157   739  663  111  179  30  3  10   67  18  5  63  106 .270 .340 .370 .710  245  22   9  1  3   4 *6/D        ASGG

2011              66   312  280   40   72  12  1   2   22   7  2  24   33 .257 .321 .329 .649   92   6   4  0  4   0             *6/D

17 Seasons      2361 10860 9602 1725 2998 480 62 236 1157 330 87 972 1605 .312 .383 .449 .832 4310 241 156 79 51                   37

162 Game Avg.    162   745  659  118  206  33  4  16   79  23  6  67  110 .312 .383 .449 .832  296  17  11  5  3                    3

                   G    PA   AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB   SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS   TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB  Pos      Awards

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table

Generated 7/10/2011.

1996 - O'Neil, Tino, Bernie, Pettitte, Wettland and Rivera

1997 - O'Neil, Tino, Bernie, Pettite, Cone and Rivera

1998 - Bernie and Rivera

1999 - Rivera

2000 - See Below

2001 - Mussina, Clemens, Rivera

2002 - Giambi, Soriano, Bernie,

2003 - Rivera, Giambi, Posada, Soriano

2004 - A-Rod, Matsui, Sheffield,Rivera

2005 - A-Rod, Sheffield, Rivera

2006 - See Below

2007 - A-Rod, Posada

2008 - A-Rod, Abreu, Mussina and Rivera

2009 - Sabathia, Rivera and Teixeira

2010 - A-Rod, Teixeira, Cano, Swisher, Sabathia,

In 1997 I left Davild Wells off the list despite him winning 16 games because his ERA was high. Heck, Chad Curtis in 334 less ABs hit for the same average, more HRs, just 20 less RBIs and significantly higher OPS. No, I'm not saying I'd take Chad Curtis over Jeter but just put #s into perspective.

In 1998 I left off Tino off the list despite him driving in 123 runs and O'Neil despite him driving in 116. I'll leave Cone off despite him winning 20 games. I left Wells off despite him going 18-4 with a 3.49 ERA. I left off Orlando Hernandez and his 3.13 ERA because he only started 21 games. I'm being pretty generous with 1998.

In 1999 I say he's a push with Bernie and you could make a strong case that Jeter's .349 with 24 HRs and 102 RBIs deserves top spot but Rivera had 45 saves with a 1.83 ERA and a WHIP of .883 I probably won't complain if someone wants to give Jeter 1999 but Rivera was definitely better.

In 2000 yes Jeter his .339 and you could make a case for him but a case for Bernie can easily be made. He hit 30 HRs with 121 RBIs despite only playing in 141 games.

In 2001 I left Tino off the list despite him getting 34 HRs and driving in 113.

In 2002 I left Pettitte and his 3.27 ERA off because he only pitched in 22 games.

In 2003 I left off I left Mussina and his 17-8 record with a 3.40 ERA off the list.

In 2004 I left Posada off the list despite him having a significantly higher OPS and more RBIs in 200 less ABs just because he hit only .272. I also left off Orlando Hernandez who went 8-2 3.30 ERA because he only started 15 games.

In 2005 I left off Giambi and his 32 HRs because he drove in just 87 and hit for a low average. I even left off Matsui's 116 RBIs because he "only" hit .305 and had only 23 HRs. Matsui still had a better OPS and more extra base hits. Again, I'm being fairly generous here.

In 2006 there is a strong case for Jeter again. He hit .343 and drove in 97. Arguments against Jeter? Cano hit .342 and drove in 78 despite having 140 fewer ABs. A-Rod also hit 35 HRs and drove in 121. Giambi ht 37 HRs and drove in 113. Rivera, Mussina and Wang also had great years. I'd give Jeter a push with Cano but people can make a case for A-Rod being right there too.

In 2007 you could make a case for Cano as well. I'm leaving 100+ RBIs from Matsui and Abreu off the list.

In 2008 I am leaving off a 32 HR season from Giambi.

In 2009 Jeter hit .334 and you can make a case for him but 5 other guys in the starting lineup alone matched his OPS. How can argue against Teixeira hitting 39 HRs and driving in 122? I'll leave A-Rod off the list because he only hit .286 to go along with 30 HRs and 100 RBIs. Every other player in the starting lineup drove in more runs then Jeter despite having fewer Plate Appearances (Cano was only one with more ABs and he had just 3 more ABs). Everyone but Melky Cabrera had more HRs. Everyone but Cabrera had more extra base hits as well. How can you hit .334 in over 600 ABs and only drive in 66?

In 2010 I am leaving off Pettitte's 11-3 with a 3.28 ERA because he only started 21 games. Heck, someone could make a case that Gardner and/or Posada (edit: also editing in Granderson here) had years that were just as good if not better.

There's nobody in the history of baseball that has gotten any rings by being the only good player on the team. Obviously he had other good players around him.

No one's arguing that, but Jeter gets the Jordan treatment here as though he was the main reason his team won 5 (or more) titles. If you tried to count all of the HOF or Hall of Very Good players he's played with you might be able to field an entire 25 man team. Very few players in the free agency era have played with the caliber of players El Capitan has played with, and that's why he's got 5 titles and guys like Pujols or Bonds likely maxed out at 1 and 0 respectively. Hell, A-Rod is a far better player than Jeter could ever have dreamed of being, and he wasn't able to win but one series in the playoffs until he came to the Yankees. If the Yankees had Pujols, Bonds or A-Rod from the get go and no Jeter, they still have at least 4 rings. You take MJ off of the Bulls and they have 0 appearances in the Finals, much less 6 titles.

You are being far too generous with the A-Rod, Bonds, Pujols stuff. Guys with far lesser #s could be substituted in and the Yankees more then likely still. Heck, take the other SS in New York at the time who was a below average hitter and the Yankees still win those four titles in the 96-00 window. Put Jeter on those Mets teams and they don't do much (if any) better.

Edited August 8, 2011 by sahyder1

[Meacon Keaton]

...I...didn't ignore it. In fact, we had a whole discussion on it. Jesus fuck.

The guy has five rings. You can go throughout history and say if so-and-so had played here and this guy played there, but if your aunt had been born with balls she'd been your uncle. Whether he's the best player on the team or not, he was there. He played, he hit, he helped win. Is there any fucking denying this? Christ.

[sahyder1]

...I...didn't ignore it. In fact, we had a whole discussion on it. Jesus fuck.

The guy has five rings. You can go throughout history and say if so-and-so had played here and this guy played there, but if your aunt had been born with balls she'd been your uncle. Whether he's the best player on the team or not, he was there. He played, he hit, he helped win. Is there any fucking denying this? Christ.

Wait...what? That's a ridiculously bad argument. I'd argue Bernie Williams was far more important to those four championship teams. I guess he becomes an all-time great? Tino? Jeff Nelson? The ring argument is pretty stupid as it was established that without him the Yankees more then likely still win. Just where exactly do you rank Robert Horry on the all-time NBA list?

This whole thing is quiet silly to begin with. You getting defensive about Jeter earlier today was pretty ridiculous.

Edit: I don't recall going over that list. I think we moved to the all-star replacements after that. But yeah, point still stands. Lets not act like Jeter was the reason those rings were won.

Edit 2: Strasburg struck out 4 while throwing 1.2 innings and 31 pitches in his first rehab start today. I wonder if they let him make a start or two in the majors at the end of the season.

Edited August 8, 2011 by sahyder1