Man United Thread

[Whisper]

Does anybody think Manchester United can win the title this year? Realistically.

I don't think they can, they don't have the squad. They needed to spend big money on a creative central midfeilder in my opinion. I think if they would have signed Ronaldinho a couple seasons ago, Man Utd wouldn't be in the situation they are now.

And what 'situation' is that? The one where we have a 'poor' season and still finish third and win the FA Cup? The situation where we still remain one of the favourites for the title, even 11 years on from our first Premiership title?

Yeah. I'm sure all the teams struggling at the moment would hate to be in that situation.

If you look to last season, creating goals wasn't our problem. Stopping them was. We've tried to rectify that by signing Heinze and hopefully with Rio back soon and Wes Brown back to full fitness we should be improved defensively.

I don't agree that we suffer greatly in the creative aspect. We have Scholes, Giggs and Louis Saha who are 3 very creative players. Add to that a greatly improved Ronaldo and an improved Darren Fletcher and it doesn't seem so bad to me. Especially when you take into account the rest.... Smith, Solskjaer, Kleberson, Ruud etc. Even Keiran Richardson (who I think might make a breakthrough this season) is a good young player. People seem to want to make too much of losing David Beckham. Look at his performances in his last season with us, at Madrid and at the Euro's. I don't think he could add anything to our squad really.

The 'world class' players Man Utd seem to have are - Ferdinand, Keane (still!), Scholes, perhaps Ronaldo and RVN. Everyone else can perform on their day, people like Giggs are slightly inconsistent. You compare this to Arsenal (Campbell, Viera if he stays, Pires, Henry, maybe Bergkamp, Reyes and Van Persie look good) or Chelsea (Mutu, Lampard, Robben, Duff, Makelele, Kezman)

Excuse me? Van Persie? Duff? Mutu? Reyes? Robben? Kezman?

I'm sorry there's no doubt that all of them are, and will be for a good while, very good players. But your post makes little sense. You're comparing United's world class players to the above who are, in my opinion, no where near world class. And you're using these players to try and illustrate why they have stronger squads? You can't compare 'world class' players to 'good' players in that context, it just doesn't achieve what you want it to.

Van Persie - Sure, he's a good prospect but he cannot be called world class. There's just no way he's even in Giggs' league at the moment. And according to you, Ryan Giggs is inconsistent and only plays well on his day.

Duff - Massive talent. World class? Nope. Perhaps if he stays clear of injuries then he'll get the chance this season to prove himself on a bigger stage.

Mutu - For me he's shown very little in his time at Chelsea. He had a good start but since then he's been decidedly average. I'm still waiting to be impressed by him.

Reyes - Quality. No doubt about it. But the same as Duff and Robben. Huge talent, but haven't even come near to proving it on a big stage and so cannot be called 'world class'.

Robben - Had a good Euro 2004 but other than that it's difficult to judge how good he's gonna be. However, if his Euro's performances are anything to go by then he WILL be a world class player. Has proved more to me than Duff and Reyes.

Kezman - Probably the best out of the above. However, while he may have an awesome goalscoring record in Holland he's still gotta prove it over here. And i'll admit that he looks good from chelsea's pre-season matches.

That's my take on things. Call me biased if you like, I probably am somewhat. All football supporters are. I don't believe my opinions are the be all and end all but I prefer seeing more explanation than just "Man Utd haven't got a good enough squad."

Edited July 31, 2004 by Whisper in the Wind

[BleedMe]

http://rtlztv.rtl.nl/rtlzbroad

Whoo, free live stream for the AC Milan game which kicks off in about 10 mins. No sign-up required, the link should open up WMP automatically, it did for me. Commentary will probs be in Dutch though.

EDIT: Meh, ignore that, link stopped working just after i finished posting.

Edited July 31, 2004 by BleedMe

[FLiam]

Reyes - Quality. No doubt about it. But the same as Duff and Robben. Huge talent, but haven't even come near to proving it on a big stage and so cannot be called 'world class'.

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coughFAcupagainstchelseacough.

But seriopsuly though, I think Chelsea are now on a higher level than Utd when you compare people

Chelsea have the better players in certain postitions in Cudicini, Bridge, Duff, Lampard and Kezman (if you compare him with Saha).

I think the season will be the same end, Arsenal 1st, Chelsea 2nd and Utd 3rd. Imo, Utd are on the way down, the replacemtns for these brilliant players of the past are nothing. Except Howard and Ronaldo. I mean Djemba or Kleberson, you have to be kidding, Bellion? No comment. Forlan, don't get me started. Next season could very easily be an even worse season than last for Utd. And I think it will.

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

God people will one day realise that Chelsea are never as good as people make them out to be. They are the most over rated team in the world today if you ask me. All they ever do is spend, spend spend. Even saying they are better than United is pathetic. Sure they did better LAST season, I'd put money on them flopping this season. People always rule out Man United once they have one bad run, never a good idea. Don't get me started on Forlan either. When he wants to play well, he plays well. When he does play well, he is out standing however much any person puts him down.

I'm actually having a bet on Liverpool ending up in the top three. Heck this is a risky saying and I may be crazy, but I can even see them winning the title this season if Baros gets rolling with Owen.(Sorry for saying all this in a United thread)

Edited August 1, 2004 by JohnnyPerfect

[Sam]

I'm sorry but if fineintent considers Kezman a world class talent how the hell can he not consider Ruud Van Nistelrooy a world class talent.

Now although we've added nothing to our midfield I still feel we will have a great chance of winning the title this year and cant believe people are being stupid enough to write us off.

I mean the team looks stronger than last year what with the improvement in players. Kleberson for example looked very good in the Copa America and I reckon he will be able to carry that form over. Darren Fletcher was improving all the time last season and will continue to do so this season. Cristano Ronaldo has had a great championships and we just know he'll cause premiership defences problems again this term.

Also I think I'll list the world class players at Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea in my eyes.

Man United = Roy Keane, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Gary Neville, Mikael Silvestre, Rio Ferdinand, Ruud Van Nistelrooy.

Why are these players world class you ask because they ave proven themselves at the top level. They've proven themselves in europe and like it or not rvn is a world class talent player. Every team wants a player like him in there because they know he will score goals.

Ronaldo and Saha are on the brink now. Saha just needs to be picked more by France because he looked good when he did come on in the euros.

Arsenal = Campbell, A. Cole, Henry, Vieria, Pires, Ljunberg (spelt wrong I know).

Chelsea = Veron, Crespo, Lampard.

Duff, Terry, Robben and Kezman all good players undoubtbly but haven't done enough to call them world class players. Maybe one day but the same can be said about Man Utds youngsters and Arsenals youngsters.

So despite everyones claim that our squad is complete and utter crap it's still one of the best around and well we'll be challenging again this season just you see. Fergie wont be happy if he goes two seasons without the premier league title.

[fineintent]

I'm sorry but if fineintent considers Kezman a world class talent how the hell can he not consider Ruud Van Nistelrooy a world class talent.

I meant perhaps Ronaldo (obviously over time) and definately RVN. I just forgot him and stuck him on at the end. I have no doubts over RVN's ability as a goalscorer.

And what 'situation' is that? The one where we have a 'poor' season and still finish third and win the FA Cup? The situation where we still remain one of the favourites for the title, even 11 years on from our first Premiership title?

Yeah. I'm sure all the teams struggling at the moment would hate to be in that situation.

Talk to someone like Roy Keane - winning the FA cup alone isn't good enough for Man Utd. Last season was a failure, plain and simple. They are a huge club and should be winning the league and having sucess in Europe. Last year in that respect was a poor season.

And yes I'm sure plently of other supporters, including myself, would love that to happen to their team. But as much as they don't want to admit it, their team isn't Man Utd who have had unparalleled sucess; something which needs to keep happening.

[TMM]

Also I think I'll list the world class players at Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea in my eyes.

Man United = Roy Keane, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Gary Neville, Mikael Silvestre, Rio Ferdinand, Ruud Van Nistelrooy.

Arsenal = Campbell, A. Cole, Henry, Vieria, Pires, Ljungberg

Chelsea = Veron, Crespo, Lampard.

Duff, Terry, Robben and Kezman all good players undoubtbly but haven't done enough to call them world class players. Maybe one day but the same can be said about Man Utds youngsters and Arsenals youngsters.

All the plyers i've highlighted in bold are not world class players in my view. Ljungberg, Giggs and Crespo were a few years back, but are not any longer. Giggs has been inconsistant for the past 2/3 years, and Ljungberg was inconsistant last year. Crespo seemed to have lost it last year with Chelsea. Silvestre can become a worldclass player, but he isn't quite there just yet, same with Ashley Cole

Gary Neville cannot be considered world class or anywhere near because he can't run, doesn't know how to hold a defensive line, and has trouble with tackling at times.

I agree, Chelsea were lucky to finish second last season, but that is Man Utd's own fault, they blew it big time and let Chelsea in.

Edited August 1, 2004 by The_Monkey_Molester

[Sam]

Gary Neville is one of the best defenders in the game. He is solid and you know that hes not going to cock up. He was very good once again at Euro 2004 and always has been a great player on the big stage. Everyone seems to overlook and under rate him though. He'll have yet another strong season this year and once again nobody will pick up on it.

[Whisper]

Absolutely correct sam, people always look on the neville's as a joke when in fact they've been solid performers for United and England for years. Gary especially, has improved alot in recent years and has turned into one of england's best defenders IMO.

[TMM]

Gary Neville is one of the best defenders in the game. He is solid and you know that hes not going to cock up. He was very good once again at Euro 2004 and always has been a great player on the big stage. Everyone seems to overlook and under rate him though. He'll have yet another strong season this year and once again nobody will pick up on it.

←

BWAHAHAHA...ah, that's almost like saying you know what hair cut David Beckham is going to have today! Neville is an average defender at best, and at times can be solid, but can get exposed by the opposition.

If you wanna get what I mean look at Lee Dixon and Nigel Winterburn. They were solid, neither were world class defenders but they formed half of the best back four in Premiership history. That is because they knew what they were doing and where everyone else was ALL the time. They weren't the fastest, but they knew what to do. Neville doesn't. If the other team scores a goal which should've never happened because off the offside trap, it's generall Neville's fault.

[Jook]

Have to disagree, both Neville's are great players. I remember just a season or two ago Phil Neville pretty much destroyed Arsenal on his own at Highbury

[fineintent]

Have to disagree, both Neville's are great players. I remember just a season or two ago Phil Neville pretty much destroyed Arsenal on his own at Highbury

And I remember 4 years ago when Phil Neville pretty much destroyed England's European Championship Campaign

I don't mind Gary Neville however, he is deservedly England's no1 Right Back.

[TMM]

Have to disagree, both Neville's are great players. I remember just a season or two ago Phil Neville pretty much destroyed Arsenal on his own at Highbury

And I remember 4 years ago when Phil Neville pretty much destroyed England's European Championship Campaign

I don't mind Gary Neville however, he is deservedly England's no1 Right Back.

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For the pure and simple fact that there is nobody else. Glen Johnson is the only other person vaguely close, but he's nowhere near ready.

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

I'm going to disagree with you saying that Veron isn't world class. Your saying it because he hasn't played a game for about three years? Do you not realise that in his last year or so at United and his time at Chelsea he was hardly ever used? Have you ever seen Veron play or not? I remember when he used to get to play in the CL and used to be so damn awesome, yes world class awesome. His passing is super and he can score damn good goals too. I gurantee that if he gets played this season that he will be brilliant, yes once again at world class level. You wait and see.

[Jam]

Danny Mills is up there, but not at Neville's level.

Gary Neville to me is a lot like Vassell, he saves his best for England. Man United will not win the league this season, they won't win the champions league or the FA Cup. They have wasted money and have not been the same since Beckham left (as much as I dislike him). Man United fans (and Arsenal fans too) may not think Chelsea will win it, as money doesn't buy success but they have a much better chance than United. Chelsea have a squad of players, who when one gets injured can still be replaced by a different one. If RVN gets injured, Man United throw on Saha, or if Scholes gets injured its Kleberson.

The fact is, Man United are now the 3rd biggest club in England. I blame a lot of that on Ferguson. He's lost the plot. He's had his time in the sun and needs to move over, let someone with fresh ideas get Man United back on track

[Guest Red Devil]

This is a joke, Man Utd the third biggest club in the world, where have i heard that before? Every time United lose the title to Arsenal it's always the "the shift of power has begun" but it always ends up with United defying everyone and coming out on top. Fergie hasn't lost the plot, these past few seasons and the next couple of seasons are crucial to the long term future of Man Utd FC. This is when the youth will be injected into the team and break through to create the future of United.

I admit that Arsenal are one of the best teams in the world when they're on form and last season they were on form for most of the time and were lucky for some time and you need that to win it and they did. I hate Arsenal but I'll admit they are on the edge of knocking United off the top but they have to win the Premiership back to back as well as win the champions league. That for me will prove that they are the best team in England.

On Chelsea, they tried buying the title last season and couldn't, they ended up with nothing and even though they've improved IMO they'll end up with nothing again unless they get the League cup. They have very good players but IMO Jose will not bring success to the club but we'll have to wait and See on that one.

There's one simple face, you cannot tell which club is better based on players. You cannot do that because it doesn't matter about individuals, it matters about if you can play as a team. Like they say theres no I in team. A few examples

* Southampton and Charlton. Southampton have the better players with Beattie, Phillips, Niemi and a few others. On the other hand Charlton have Holland and maybe Kiely as stand out players. Last season Charlton finished above Southampton.

* Diego Forlan - If you ask about this guy people will slag him off and if you look at his record that's right but once you go deeper into it you'll find out why he hasn't done so good. He's played just under a 100 games, 60 of them have been as a substation. He's scored around 20+goals in 30+ games. He's only played around 25-30 full games. hat gives him lets say 23 goals in 30 full matches. I would say that's great for a striker. Last season he got his first ever run of games, he had 8 games in a row in all competitions and scored a resounding 7 goals out of them and was making headlines right, left and center. One game he fails to score and everyone's slagging him off again.

It doesn't matter how good a player is but as long as he performs he'll be better then most players in the world. I'll admit I'm biased on this topic but this has been going on for years now and I've had the same explanation the same so believe what you want to believe but all i want to say is don't rule United out.

[Sam]

Monkey obviously doesn't watch Gary Neville to much if he calls him an average player. Gary gets back quickly makes good tackles usually always winning the ball. Also he gets forward and puts in some quality crosses, not to mention his long throws. He has been around for ages it seems now and has done it all. And he is a world class player. Easily better than Thuram whos considered world class.

[Jam]

As for me saying Man United are the 3rd biggest club in the country, I stick by that. When was the last time that they pipped Chelsea or Arsenal to a big signing. The big names used to pour into Old Trafford, but recently they lost out to signing Ronaldinho, Duff and Robben. I might be proved wrong about United, but I really can not see them improving on last season

[Guest PlagueUK]

Last season yes Man Utd were the third best team in England, But writing them off again is completely stupid.

Chack the stats we've never lost two Premiership titles in a row.

This applies to Chelsea too, just cause they didn't win the title last season they were seen as flops because they spent so much money. I don't see how coming second in the league and getting so far in the CL.

They are both in the top three teams in England as long as they are in the top three every season any of them can come close to winning the league.

I have to disagree with Jam, it's not just about making big signings. Pretty much all the Aresnal squad were brought in relativley cheap and have become a dominnant team.

The only big signings Arsenal have made were Campbell, Reyes and probably Pires.

Same with United, RVN was only really a superstar player in Holland, a relativly unknown over here, Ronaldo, they gambled alot of money for a youngster and were pretty much ripped apart by the media for it, again an unknown here. Then those who haven't made that much of an impact yet, Djemba-Djemba, Kleberson, Bellion etc

In my opinion Man Utd and Aresnal over the years have invested money wisely and made vast amounts of profit from their shrewdness.

See the papaers today for instance, Bobby Robson the guy has spent like 70 odd million in 5 years at newcastle but what has that acheived?

Same happend to Leeds they spent way too much money than they could afford on "big signings"

Overall I still think Aresnal and Man Utd are the best 2 teams in the country, Chelsea are hot on the heels of both of them but have yet to consistantly cause a problem, yes they had a great season last year but then again a few teams did at their level.

And Gary Neville is probably the best right sided defender in the English game.

BWAHAHAHA...ah, that's almost like saying you know what hair cut David Beckham is going to have today! Neville is an average defender at best, and at times can be solid, but can get exposed by the opposition.

Ashely Cole anyone? Neville is a great defender, and can go forward when needed, a truly unsung hero of the premiership over the years.

[TMM]

Who was our best player during Euro 2004? Wayne Rooney. Second best? Ashley Cole. He improved leaps and bounds and at 23, is better than Neville. He tore Ronaldo to shreds during the England/Portugal game, as well as doing the same to Pires during the England/France game.

Neville can go forward, yes, but he can't get back in time. Ronaldo doesn't cover him, so he really shouldn't do it because he doesn't have the pace to get back and he gets exposed because of it.