The Ramones

[Nerf]

So, this stems from a conversation with Ollie about whether or not The Ramones 'changed the face of music.' One side of the debate is that The Ramones inspired the Punk Rock movement, whilst the counter argument is that bands (tracing back a decade earlier) such as MC5 and Generation X were the ones that did so.

I personally believe that The Ramones were the band that 'kick-started' (a word that has been used throughout the conversation with Ollie) the Punk Rock movement. Whilst I appreciate that Generation X and MC5 are considered by many as the "first punk rock bands," I would disagree with the statement that those two and others before them are the ones that began the Punk movement. There's a world of difference between innovation and inspiration - with the best example I can give being Nirvana to Grunge.

Anyway, your thoughts? Let us try and start a somewhat intelligent debate about music, shall we? Seems like we haven't had one of those in a while.

[DMN in the House]

I think they popularized it, particularly in the US, and were damn good at it. Pretty much, I think that means I agree with you.

Without The Ramones, the 'legacy' of punk music is radically different in the US.

[Skummy]

The Ramones brought the punk "formula" of being fast, frantic and three-chords to the forefront...you had a similar mentality in bands like The MC5, The Stooges et al, but it was the Ramones that pretty much created the punk archetype that would later be furthered by the Sex Pistols, and so on and so forth.

And Generation X were post-Ramones, they're pretty much a footnote in the history of punk if anything at all.

And I wouldn't say The Ramones "popularised" punk in the US...they never really made any money in the US, never really got anywhere, until the Pistols crossed the Atlantic and brought their hype with them...and even then it never caught on in a big way.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Skummy

[RPS]

I think that the Ramones were significant in so much in their infamous show in the UK where everyone who was anyone to come in the UK punk scene was present. I don't think the Ramones have been remembered for one reason - they weren't really dangerous. The Sex Pistols legacy has less been about their music, but moreso because they scared people. The Sex Pistols were blacked out from the charts and were presented to the masses as something to be worried about - they were pissed off youths and they weren't going to take it. They didn't care about politics, they didn't care about the queen, they cared about anarchy. The Clash were dangerous - they named a CD called Sandnista and were heavily involved in politics.. Punk has forever, in my mind, been associated with being a dangerous and revolutionary music genre. The Ramones were neither. The Ramones didn't want to grow up, but the Sex Pistols were snarling about abortions and the Clash were fighting the Clampdown. I love the Ramones, but they shouldn't be remembered as anything but a really good punk band. Even if they were the first "punk" band, I don't think their hand in shaping the genre was even close to the Sex Pistols or the Clash.

Edited November 6, 2007 by PunkRockPete

[VerbalPuke]

If anything, bands such as The Stooges, MC5, Rocket From The Tombs, Electric Eels, Dictators, and New York Dolls should be considered before Generation-X, but that's neither here no there.

The Ramones do deserve credit for punk as we know it, drawing influence from the raw rock and roll those bands were churning out. They may not have been overly political, but they connected with fans in another way, they represented music that embodied the youth. I think the kids that looked up to the Ramones and drew influence from them could connected much better with them than any band spewing out political rhetoric. The Ramones gave them immature themes, and music that was just generally fun, it gave the kids a breath of fresh air from the over exposed stadium rockers of the time.

Also, the Ramones were considered "dangerous" but in their own way, not so much as a threat to our way of life, but just their image. When they first broke onto the scene with their torn jeans, leather jackets, and shaggy hair, people genuinely viewed them as a bunch of tough guy street hoodlums not to be fucked with.

I don't know if popularizing punk is what the Ramones did exactly, but they did pave the way for scores of other bands, not just in New York but all over the United States. But as it stands, I'd say the Ramones greatest fame came much later than their heyday. They're probably bigger now than ever before.

Some people have cited The Ramones as being the first to actually use the word "punk" to describe themselves and their music, but it's not actually true. Richard Hell has been cited himself, but there was also a Detroit band called the Punks around the same time playing Stooges inspired music, though as great as this band was, they are very under the radar. And of course, there was a time period in the 60s where a garage/psychedelic musician coined the phrase "punk" to describe his music.

Of course there's also John Holstrom, Legs McNeil, and Ged Dunn that founded "Punk", a fanzine created in 1975. Here's a an excerpt from "Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk" which ties into my first paragraph.

I saw the magazine Holstrom wanted to start as a Dictators album come to life. On the inside sleeve of the record was a picture of the Dictators hanging out in a White Castle hamburger stand and they were dressed in black leather jackets. Even though we didn't have black leather jackets, the picture seemed to describe us perfectly, wise guys. So I thought the magazine should be for other fuck-ups like us. Kids who grew up believing only in the Three Stooges. Kids that had parties when their parents were away and destroyed the house. You know, kids that stole cars and had fun.

So I said, "Why don't we call it Punk?"

The word "punk" seemed to sum up the thread that connected everything we liked - drunk, obnoxious, smart, but not pretentious, absurd, funny, ironic, and things that appealed to the dark side.

The last sentence really illustrates why regular kids could relate to the Ramones music, and why it inspired so many to pick up guitars and get their own thing going.

You could say the MC5, Stooges, etc. etc. inspired punk rock itself, but the Ramones actually inspired the "movement".

[F#A#]

As far as The Ramones, I think they made it far more accessible. A wider audience was able to hear their music, especially younger kids who were looking for something to latch onto and rebel against.

During the time MC5 was active, 1962-1974, the landscape was just being set for what the Ramones did. The time and style that the Ramones used is what made it more accessible, even though bands like MC5 paved the way.

[Skummy]

The thing is, a wider audience didn't listen to them. Like VP said, they're far more popular now than they were then; they got very little recognition during their "heyday", when other punk bands were taking off around them.

The main inspirations for punk, as far as I can tell, were definitely the New York Dolls and the Stooges....you had other bands doing similar things then and earlier...a lot of '60s garage was very proto-punk in its style, and Screaming Lord Sutch and John's Children were perfecting the outrageous presentation aspect of punk in the UK around the same time...so it's difficult to say "punk came from this", when really, it was a culmination of a lot of different things and, as with all "movements", a lot of disparate bands with very little in common got grouped together for being in the right place at the right time, and a lot of shite spawned from that.

As for The MC5...they really lead to the more politically aware aspect of punk, as they never really had the three-chord aggressive uniformity thing going on, with the exception of Kick Out The Jams....they covered Sun Ra, for fuck's sake, which isn't especially "punk". Personally, if we're talking of punk coming out of the US, I think it was the combination of the MC5's politics, The Stooge's raw sexuality (I think US punk was a lot more sexual than UK punk, which kept itself pretty much detached from ideas of sex and love) energy, power and aggression, with the Dolls "couldn't give a fuck" approach, and The Ramones uniformity and three-chord formula.

[VerbalPuke]

Very well said Skum, you made some great points. An important point you mentioned was that punk's influence was really a culmination of so many different styles of music that preceded. It's absolutely true, it's easy to just make the Stooges and MC5 connection, but when reading interviews from former members of punk bands they often cite so many different things. A lot have said it was old 50's rock like Chuck Berry and Little Richard, old surf in the Dead Kennedys case, the first wave of ska or reggae (Lord Tanamo, Desmond Dekker, etc.), glam rockers like Bowie or the Dolls, and even groups like Alice Cooper or Black Sabbath.

Another point you made, an interesting one that never crossed my mind is that the US punk was much more sexual than it's UK counterpart. Looking at lyrical content, and just the general live experience, it's clear that the US punk of that era focused itself on sex, especially if you look into the stuff the Dead Boys were doing on stage (Stiv Bators getting a blow job on stage for instance), or what Johnny Thunders was writing about (very strong love themes). Strangely though, the Sex Pistols took form in a bondage and fetish shop, and I think Malcolm McLaren was going for a sexually oriented rock group. Unfortunately for him, Johnny Rotten was vehemently opposed to the idea, or so it seemed from what I've read from him.

Though as time moved on, and 77 style evolved into hardcore, I think the sexual themes began to die down. The US hardcore took an angrier, more aggressive approach, typically with venomous political lyrics.

For example, the song "Submission", McLaren had intended that they write the song based on sexual domination (sex and submission), but Johnny took it and made it a spoof song, the lyrics being more about an actual submarine mission.

And ya know, I really love the MC5. Nothing more to say about them really, they fucking rocked.