2008/2009 NBA Thread v2.0

[naiwf]

The regular season is a different story from the playoffs man. How can you simply say Orlando is an inferior team because they had an inferior regular season record? How many times in sports do you see the team with the best record in the regular season failing to capture the championsihp? It happens all the time.

The bottom line is Orlando is a terrible matchup for Cleveland in the confines of a 7 game series. Although Dwight Howard is a mismatch for virtually any team, he has exposed the lack of athleticism in the Cleveland front line. Then there's Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis, both 6-10, and the only guy capable of guarding either is LeBron himself, and he can't guard them both. With Cleveland's weak front line the Cavs have to sag off of those two guys on the outside to try to contain Howard, and when Turkoglu and Lewis (especially Lewis) have been hitting enough shots like they have in the series, it stings pretty bad.

In hockey a single player can win a cup, or at least come damn near close. See Giguere in '03, who was one game short of putting the entire Ducks team on his back and winning the Stanley cup.

So who are you touting as the best player in the world right now since LeBron can only score 49 points and come a couple rebounds and assists shy of a triple double every game and is in danger of his team suffering defeat in the second to last round of the playoffs?

Orlando's playing without their starting PG, and almost got eliminated by Philly and a crippled Boston team that didn't have one of their best players and their best post player off of the bench. The fact that the won fewer games in the regular season is just another clue that they're an inferior team to Cleveland who went 8-0 in the first two rounds.

Kobe has been the best player ever since Shaq left the Lakers. Wade had the best season this year. LeBron has the best marketing. If he was the NBA messiah some people make him out to be he could lead a 66 win team to the Finals and win it. It's not like this team won 45 games and backdoored their way into the playoffs.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

Wow, I don't even know what to so to that. You say LeBron isn't the best player because he can't single handedly carry his team to a title (or at least hasn't yet), yet Kobe is and he hasn't won a title since Shaq left. I guess we'll agree to disagree since I really don't understand where you're coming from.

For some reason I feel like the newfound LeBron hate among many is in many ways equivalent to the smark hate for John Cena in 06.

[naiwf]

Wow, I don't even know what to so to that. You say LeBron isn't the best player because he can't single handedly carry his team to a title (or at least hasn't yet), yet Kobe is and he hasn't won a title since Shaq left. I guess we'll agree to disagree since I really don't understand where you're coming from.

For some reason I feel like the newfound LeBron hate among many is in many ways equivalent to the smark hate for John Cena in 06.

The Cavs won 66 games this regular season and started this postseason 8-0 and have been embarassed thus far by the Magic. If Ron Jeremy knew how to guard an inbounds play with one second left on the clock the Cavs would have been swept by a team that almost lost to a crippled Celtics team in the last round and had to sweat to beat the 76ers. If you don't accept that Kobe has been the best player in the league for at least 5 years now, there's not anything I can tell you that would convince you otherwise.

What is this "newfound" LeBron hate you're speaking of? Most people have hated the guy from the day he came into the league and it's been there ever since. The guy, and his fans, acts like he invented basketball and that he's better than Jordan who was averaging 35 & 37 by the time he was LeBron's age. If people just let him exist on his own, it would be a lot easier to tolerate the fact that he's won as many championships as everyone on EWB put together. The "King" moniker and the Biblical references to being a "witness" are extreme when he hasn't accomplished anything yet except winning an MVP. There's NEVER any reason to compare a guy with 5 or 6 seasons under his belt to the greatest player who ever lived in any sport, and it's even worse when they try to argue that he's better than the other guy.

Edited May 28, 2009 by naiwf

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

It's not fair to group all LeBron fans into one category...for example, myself, I don't like comparing current players to players from different eras...I prefer to appreciate them in their own eras, and watching LeBron James is a beautiful thing.

How does he act like he invented basketball and is better than MJ? LOL where are you getting this from? The guy wears 23 because he idolized Jordan and stll does.

You can blame Nike and ESPN for the "Witness" and "King" references - they're not LeBron's fault. King is just a play on his name, and "Witness" is part of an adveritsing campaign intended to sell shoes.

And yes, previously I did feel Kobe was the best player in the league. However I feel LeBron has surpassed Kobe in the last two seasons.

We're past regular season numbers, dude. How many times do we have to point out that regular season records are largely irrelevant when it comes to the post season? Look at the Patroits in the NFL a year ago. They were a game away from going undefeated but instead they were outplayed by a team that was a bad matchup for them, the Giants. If you really want to dwell on regular season results, Cleveland was 1-2 against Orlando. They struggled against the rest of the NBA's top teams as well, going 2-2 against Boston and 0-2 against LA.

[naiwf]

It's not fair to group all LeBron fans into one category...for example, myself, I don't like comparing current players to players from different eras...I prefer to appreciate them in their own eras, and watching LeBron James is a beautiful thing.

How does he act like he invented basketball and is better than MJ? LOL where are you getting this from? The guy wears 23 because he idolized Jordan and stll does.

You can blame Nike and ESPN for the "Witness" and "King" references - they're not LeBron's fault. King is just a play on his name, and "Witness" is part of an adveritsing campaign intended to sell shoes.

And yes, previously I did feel Kobe was the best player in the league. However I feel LeBron has surpassed Kobe in the last two seasons.

We're past regular season numbers, dude. How many times do we have to point out that regular season records are largely irrelevant when it comes to the post season? Look at the Patroits in the NFL a year ago. They were a game away from going undefeated but instead they were outplayed by a team that was a bad matchup for them, the Giants. If you really want to dwell on regular season results, Cleveland was 1-2 against Orlando. They struggled against the rest of the NBA's top teams as well, going 2-2 against Boston and 0-2 against LA.

LeBron is constantly fellating himself in interviews. If you can't see that, then you are as someone else put it, a "fanboy".

More importantly, you're killing your own argument here. The Cavs didn't do well against the NBA's elite. LA did. Hence, Kobe is a better player than LeBron because he leads his teams to wins against the better teams. The Cavs wilt under pressure and if LeBron was actually called for offensive fouls and travels the way he should be, his numbers wouldn't look nearly as good as they do. Before this postseason began no one would have put the Magic in the Finals because no one believed they were good enough to beat the Celtics AND Cavs. The LeBrons were anointed as a given thanks to the beatdown they put on the league in the regular season and the fact that LeBron is the greatest thing that ever happened to the NBA.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

I'm killing my own argument by stating that the Cavs struggled against the leagues top teams in the reuglar season, yet you continue to fall back on the Cavs regular season record? What good is that record if they struggle against the top teams? The league is full of teams that aren't very good.

You want to use specific evidence of how LeBron "fellates" himself in interviews? It's also quite ridiculous that you just call me a fanboy for no reason. If I was, I think your LeBron hatred is shining through far more than my "fanboyness."

This fanboy is done with his argument.

[naiwf]

I'll try to make this as simple as possible. If ANY team wins 66 games in the regular season, sweeps its first two playoff opponents and has the best player in the world/greatest player that's ever lived on the floor, they should be able to beat a 3 seed which lost its starting point guard and barely got by a team that didn't have one of the best players in the league in their lineup and lost another of their bigs to injury as well. Would an MJ led team have lost to this Magic team?

LeBron is probably the cockiest player in all of American pro sports. The guy is always comparing himself to the legends of the game, or trying to say he belongs with them. It's evident in just about any interview of his.

[gunnar hendershow]

I'll try to make this as simple as possible. If ANY team wins 66 games in the regular season, sweeps its first two playoff opponents and has the best player in the world/greatest player that's ever lived on the floor, they should be able to beat a 3 seed which lost its starting point guard and barely got by a team that didn't have one of the best players in the league in their lineup and lost another of their bigs to injury as well. Would an MJ led team have lost to this Magic team?

LeBron is probably the cockiest player in all of American pro sports. The guy is always comparing himself to the legends of the game, or trying to say he belongs with them. It's evident in just about any interview of his.

An MJ led team with the same perimeter defense would be losing to this Magic team. They really don't match up well, at all. Cleveland's two biggest weaknesses are more than exploited by Orlando. Remember when Golden State beat Dallas? Everybody knew it was because Don Nelson's style was a style that exploited every weakness of the Dallas team he used to coach. Circumstances are a little different, but it's playoff sports. These things always happen.

EDIT - Orlando let itself lose that game. Not making foul shots and missing its 3's.

Edited May 29, 2009 by damshow

[DMN in the House]

Live by the three, die by the three.

Myself, I eagerly await the parade down Figueroa. I'll be at Staples when Kobe asks Shaq how HIS ass tastes.

Oh yes, I can feel that championship.

Kobe's better than LeBron anyway. 'The King' doesn't have ANY rings, and he doesn't have a jumpshot. Book it, Danno.

[VerbalPuke]

I'll try to make this as simple as possible. If ANY team wins 66 games in the regular season, sweeps its first two playoff opponents and has the best player in the world/greatest player that's ever lived on the floor, they should be able to beat a 3 seed which lost its starting point guard and barely got by a team that didn't have one of the best players in the league in their lineup and lost another of their bigs to injury as well. Would an MJ led team have lost to this Magic team?

LeBron is probably the cockiest player in all of American pro sports. The guy is always comparing himself to the legends of the game, or trying to say he belongs with them. It's evident in just about any interview of his.

An MJ led team with the same perimeter defense would be losing to this Magic team. They really don't match up well, at all. Cleveland's two biggest weaknesses are more than exploited by Orlando. Remember when Golden State beat Dallas? Everybody knew it was because Don Nelson's style was a style that exploited every weakness of the Dallas team he used to coach. Circumstances are a little different, but it's playoff sports. These things always happen.

EDIT - Orlando let itself lose that game. Not making foul shots and missing its 3's.

Too many stupid turnovers on their part as well. It seemed like they would make a nice defensive stop and just throw the ball away. I would love to see Orlando win because I really dislike Lebron James. I don't care much for Kobe either, but he's at least a proven winner and has earned the right to get the tongue in sphincter treatment from the media.

[thuganomic]

I agree that the NBA is about matchups, and honestly, Orlando has employed this strategy brilliantly. J.J. Redick was huge against the Celtics and now Pietrus is doing the same thing against the Cavs. The Magic are lucky in that they have so many sweet-shooting perimeter players that they can play each of them to their strengths and not really sacrifice much on the offensive end.

But right now, Kobe is better than Lebron. If anything, this series has really shown me that Lebron is not this Magic-reincarnated figure that people make him out to be. Lebron looks to pass, but a superstar needs to take charge in the final moments. He finally learned this last night and what happened, they won. Kobe is at his best when he's looking to pass, but that's only because that's such a change from his usual style of play. People are used to Lebron driving and kicking it out; he needs to put the Cavs on his back and win Game 6 to be mentioned in the same breath as MJ. There is no way Jordan, or even Kobe, would let the Cavs fall so behind in this series.

Don't even get me started on the free throws. Hitting a miracle 3 is nothing if you miss almost half your free throws in the fourth the next game.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

I'm sick of hearing this crap that MJ would be leading this same Cavs team just fine. MJ's supporting cast was SO much better than LeBron's is right now. Don't get me wrong, while I do think LeBron will eventually surpass MJ as the better player (although a lot will never think that), I don't think he has yet and is quite a ways from doing so.

But on the topic of people saying MJ would lead this same team over the Magic easily and to an nba title, blah blah blah — you really have to consider the facts. Back in MJ's era, the NBA was so much more competitive as far as the depth of the league and the depth of talent. When MJ was absent from the league in 1994 and 1995, Chicago made it to the second round of the playoffs both seasons, despite this. Do you REALLY think these Cavs would win a playoff series, let alone make it into the playoffs without LeBron? You take away LeBron from this team and they are arguably the worst team in the league.

Edited May 30, 2009 by KeepinThatFunkAliveV4

[Mr Evil Guy]

I'm sick of hearing this crap that MJ would be leading this same Cavs team just fine. MJ's supporting cast was SO much better than LeBron's is right now. Don't get me wrong, while I do think LeBron will eventually surpass MJ as the better player (although a lot will never think that), I don't think he has yet and is quite a ways from doing so.

That's just fucking ridiculous. I tried not to bring myself in this because I thought you had at least a little bit of a well-thought out argument that I was 50-50 on, but that's just.. holy fuck.

LeBron will win not 6 championships. He will not be as good as Jordan. Fin.

[gunnar hendershow]

I'm sick of hearing this crap that MJ would be leading this same Cavs team just fine. MJ's supporting cast was SO much better than LeBron's is right now. Don't get me wrong, while I do think LeBron will eventually surpass MJ as the better player (although a lot will never think that), I don't think he has yet and is quite a ways from doing so.

That's just fucking ridiculous. I tried not to bring myself in this because I thought you had at least a little bit of a well-thought out argument that I was 50-50 on, but that's just.. holy fuck.

LeBron will win not 6 championships. He will not be as good as Jordan. Fin.

He will never get his Scottie Pippen or Phil Jackson either.

Though I do agree with you.

[naiwf]

I'm sick of hearing this crap that MJ would be leading this same Cavs team just fine. MJ's supporting cast was SO much better than LeBron's is right now. Don't get me wrong, while I do think LeBron will eventually surpass MJ as the better player (although a lot will never think that), I don't think he has yet and is quite a ways from doing so.

That's just fucking ridiculous. I tried not to bring myself in this because I thought you had at least a little bit of a well-thought out argument that I was 50-50 on, but that's just.. holy fuck.

LeBron will win not 6 championships. He will not be as good as Jordan. Fin.

He will never get his Scottie Pippen or Phil Jackson either.

Though I do agree with you.

Mo Williams and Z have been All-Stars and Mike Brown just won COTY What more does Bron Bron need? He's working with the same caliber supporting cast and coaching that Howard is with the Magic.

[gunnar hendershow]

I'm sick of hearing this crap that MJ would be leading this same Cavs team just fine. MJ's supporting cast was SO much better than LeBron's is right now. Don't get me wrong, while I do think LeBron will eventually surpass MJ as the better player (although a lot will never think that), I don't think he has yet and is quite a ways from doing so.

That's just fucking ridiculous. I tried not to bring myself in this because I thought you had at least a little bit of a well-thought out argument that I was 50-50 on, but that's just.. holy fuck.

LeBron will win not 6 championships. He will not be as good as Jordan. Fin.

He will never get his Scottie Pippen or Phil Jackson either.

Though I do agree with you.

Mo Williams and Z have been All-Stars and Mike Brown just won COTY What more does Bron Bron need? He's working with the same caliber supporting cast and coaching that Howard is with the Magic.

Did you really just compare Mo Williams and Z to Scottie Pippen?

[Colossus]

I'm sick of hearing this crap that MJ would be leading this same Cavs team just fine. MJ's supporting cast was SO much better than LeBron's is right now. Don't get me wrong, while I do think LeBron will eventually surpass MJ as the better player (although a lot will never think that), I don't think he has yet and is quite a ways from doing so.

Yeah, not gonna happen

[naiwf]

Did you really just compare Mo Williams and Z to Scottie Pippen?

I know it's not fair to Scottie to compare him with those two heavyweights, but I tried.

Seriously though he's going to need to go someplace else in the East if he wants to win a championship if they don't get it done this year.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

I'm sick of hearing this crap that MJ would be leading this same Cavs team just fine. MJ's supporting cast was SO much better than LeBron's is right now. Don't get me wrong, while I do think LeBron will eventually surpass MJ as the better player (although a lot will never think that), I don't think he has yet and is quite a ways from doing so.

That's just fucking ridiculous. I tried not to bring myself in this because I thought you had at least a little bit of a well-thought out argument that I was 50-50 on, but that's just.. holy fuck.

LeBron will win not 6 championships. He will not be as good as Jordan. Fin.

It's really not that ridiculous dude. First off, you don't have to win the most championships to be the best player ever. If so, Bill Russell would own this argument. So let's stop saying # of championships determines how good you are. Is it a contributing factor? Of course. And I will say I think LeBron will win somewhere around 3-4 titles. And YES I still think he can be considered better than Jordan if he does that and keeps his production up near level for another ten years or so. (He will probably be able to do it for a little longer considering he has had very few injuries in his career - especially when you consider the # of minutes he has played and his physical style.) Let's not forget that LeBron's skill level has not topped out quite yet either, his jump shot and defense seem to be ever-improving. Everything else is about as good as it can possibly be with the exception of a so-called "crab dribble" (had to).

Jordan didn't start winning championships until what, his seventh season? This is what, LeBron's sixth season? Oh yeah, and then there's the matter of LeBron coming straight out of high school, therefore he is still behind Jordan by a couple of years. When Jordan was LeBron's age, did anyone really think he was going to win six championships? It's so easy to just simply think of the six titles as Jordan winning them by himself and them always being a forgone conclusion, but neither of those two items are true man.

[DMN in the House]

LeBron is no Jordan. He doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan did. Its pretty obvious you didn't see Jordan play. I remember dude ripping hearts out.

JUST LIKE KOBE DID TONIGHT! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!