The Continuing Chronicles Of Jay Feaster's Incompetence

[Plubby]

Game, set, match is right.

Nice of you to concede defeat finally.

[Mountainous Cleavage]

Gonna go out on a limb and predict that our goaltending stat rankings (GAA, S%) will be improved from the past years come the end of the season (when/if it starts, next season if there isn't one this year.) Shoot me if I'm wrong.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Mountainous Cleavage

[SeanDMan]

Well, since we can't predict the future, let's just look at the recent past.

Stanley Cups since 1968, say.

Toronto Maple Leafs, 0.

Francois Allaire, 3.

I'm sure, though, that the decline in the results of the Toronto Maple Leafs was Allaire's fault and not anything to do with the fact that the Leafs are a badly run organization.

[Mountainous Cleavage]

Gonna go out on a limb and predict that our goaltending stat rankings (GAA, S%) will be improved from the past years come the end of the season (when/if it starts, next season if there isn't one this year.) Shoot me if I'm wrong.

You know, I missed the spot where I said we'd take home the cup.

[Plubby]

You've been missing the point or spot on goaltending for the better part of twelve months.

[caucasianheat]

Gonna go out on a limb and predict that our goaltending stat rankings (GAA, S%) will be improved from the past years come the end of the season (when/if it starts, next season if there isn't one this year.) Shoot me if I'm wrong.

If there aren't several goaltending coaches pushing very different philosophies to a very confused staff of goaltenders, I wouldn't be surprised.

It's interesting to watch as the scapegoats begin to disappear. Burke's number is almost certainly up as the new and only enemy of the public if there's a season this year. There's been a lot of fan derision about him already but I think it'll be closer to unanimous if Toronto isn't markedly better without having made any real improvements.

[Toe]

This is probably the final year as Burke as GM if the team doesn't make the playoffs. However, I would expect Nonis to be next in line, so not much might change if Burke goes.

Still, I like Burke, and the team is in a better spot then it was before he arrived. Going into a season with Toskala as your #1 goaltender though...that is pretty bad. And I liked Toskala, I thought he had all the tools to be an excellent goaltender in the NHL.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Toe

[Ruki]

I still believe in Burke!

[caucasianheat]

I don't think he's necessarily a bad GM either and his Toronto stint has lights both high and low. The easy excuse is that he inherited a mess, cleared the decks (this is partly Fletcher too), and started nearly from scratch. The Leafs have some really good secondary pieces but they're missing too many key components without a clear way to get them immediately - no trade pieces to leverage a deal, unwilling to pay top dollar for top free agents on weird principle. Burke's bombast and the intensity of Toronto as a hockey city really only make it that much worse.

The beat on Toskala when he came was that he was someone totally ready to step into a starter position and honestly, I watched those games and there were nights where he was very good - I believe he was even a goalie of the month. I'd rather have Lars Eller now, of course, but what can you do.

[Toe]

I don't think he's necessarily a bad GM either and his Toronto stint has lights both high and low. The easy excuse is that he inherited a mess, cleared the decks (this is partly Fletcher too), and started nearly from scratch. The Leafs have some really good secondary pieces but they're missing too many key components without a clear way to get them immediately - no trade pieces to leverage a deal, unwilling to pay top dollar for top free agents on weird principle. Burke's bombast and the intensity of Toronto as a hockey city really only make it that much worse.

The beat on Toskala when he came was that he was someone totally ready to step into a starter position and honestly, I watched those games and there were nights where he was very good - I believe he was even a goalie of the month. I'd rather have Lars Eller now, of course, but what can you do.

Oh yeah. When he took over from Raycroft, their were a few nights where Toskala looked like a world beater. That's when he won me over. Too bad he settled into being terrible.

The Leafs are not in a bad spot, and I'd like to see Carlyle's take on the team this season. They have plenty of defence and some good, young, mobile players back there. Up front, they have Kessel. Everyone else, even prospects like Kadri, are a step below. They need depth and they need a true top line centre. The question mark is Van Riemsdyk and where he fits into the line-up. In goal, Reimer is still a question mark. Would like to see a full, healthy season from him before I judge whether he is the solution or just another problem in goal.

[Mountainous Cleavage]

You've been missing the point or spot on goaltending for the better part of twelve months.

Really? Because it sure seems to me, from Burke's comments, that Allaire hasn't been brought back due to what I was saying in those 'twelve months' - he forces goalies into his style instead of expanding and growing their strengths. I guess (whenever this next season starts), we'll see how far 'off the mark' I've really been.

I get the guy helped make Patrick Roy, but just think WHAT IF Patrick Roy was destined to be great REGARDLESS of being taught by Allaire. I'd say it's a bit unfair to Roy to say he owes all the success of his career to the teachings of Allaire.

[Plubby]

he forces goalies into his style instead of expanding and growing their strengths.

In this you show you don't know what a professional coach does AND that you haven't even read the comment I made before you posted your obnoxiously large banana picture, let alone comprehended it.

[Toe]

Allaire's contract expired and he decided to not return because of the interference of other coaches in the organization. I am not sure if Allaire's system was the best one for Reimer, but I am sure he will go somewhere else and help another goaltender become one of the best. His resume speaks for itself.

[Mountainous Cleavage]

The interference from the other coaches was due to Allaire basically refusing to change something that was proven to be flawed, as Burke says (see the last few season's goaltending stats). What Allaire teaches did indeed work well in the past, but things have evolved and his style now has holes in it, hole's he refused to patch so Burke was forced to have the other coaches step in.

Plubby, I did indeed read what you had posted, and I agree with what you said about not bringing someone like Gus in to work with Allaire. That is not the smartest move by the scouting staff by any means. That being said, if Allaire was that great of a coach, he should be able to at least tweak his teachings to the point that it doesn't interfere with or go completely against the natural style a goaltender has. Yes, I'm sure if you gave him a goalie that was a perfect fit for his style, you may have gotten better results out of him (and quite possibly not as well). But at the end of the day, Allaire I'm sure knew what types of goalies he was working with and still continued to push his style, it didn't work, and now he's got to find a new job basically because of it.

The way I think about it is like this;

Goalie's played hockey growing up, throughout the levels, and developed a style he was comfortable with and did well with. Goalie improves his style, gets to the point it's like second nature to him and is comfortable, confident, and doesn't have to think about what he's doing anymore. Goalie gets his break into the pros/NHL, where he's suddenly a pupil to a coach who preaches a completely different style than he's played throughout his career. Wanting to stay in the big league, Goalie wants to do anything he can to be able to, including doing his best to learn a brand new style. Suddenly, Goalie is faced with having to think about what he's doing all over again, basically re-learning how to play goalie. Because he's having to think about this new style so much more now as opposed to just doing his thing as he was used to, Goalie increasingly makes mistakes, and confidence also takes a hit from it. Bascially, all Goalie had learned up to the pros becomes useless to him as he's forced to now form himself to this new style.

Now I guess I can't exactly blame Allaire that he was hired, and goalies were brought in that didn't fit his style, but like I had said above, if he was as great a coach as he's preached to be, you'd think he'd work with what he had and not what he wanted them to be. Just my opinion, I guess.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Mountainous Cleavage

[Plubby]

I think if you are young and elite, you can handle an additional style or drastic style change. But you have to come in at 18, 19.

That's why JS Giguere had success back with Allaire. He came back, and played well. Then he had a rough second season behind an abysmal team and battling injury.

The fundamental point I think we're disagreeing on here is that you think all goalie coaches should be able to coach all styles - whereas what I'm saying is that Allaire can't do that. Allaire teaches the Franky Allaire style. You don't go to a karate guy and ask him to teach you jiu-jitsu because he's a "martial arts teacher".

Allaire may not have been the right guy in Toronto - but you can't put those goalies with that coach. Either bring in different goalies or don't bring Allaire into that role. Go and get Kari Lehtonen. Heck, Luongo would have been a great fit I think.

[Toe]

Wasn't a big reason for Gustavsson signing in Toronto because he wanted to work with Allaire? Gus scares me - watch Howard get hurt, and Gus just turn into the new Hasek or something.

[TGWL]

I think if you are young and elite, you can handle an additional style or drastic style change. But you have to come in at 18, 19.

That's why JS Giguere had success back with Allaire. He came back, and played well. Then he had a rough second season behind an abysmal team and battling injury.

The fundamental point I think we're disagreeing on here is that you think all goalie coaches should be able to coach all styles - whereas what I'm saying is that Allaire can't do that. Allaire teaches the Franky Allaire style. You don't go to a karate guy and ask him to teach you jiu-jitsu because he's a "martial arts teacher".

Allaire may not have been the right guy in Toronto - but you can't put those goalies with that coach. Either bring in different goalies or don't bring Allaire into that role. Go and get Kari Lehtonen. Heck, Luongo would have been a great fit I think.

I think Burke mention Lehtonen's name as a goalie not playing Allaires style and having success (like Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne)

[Mountainous Cleavage]

I think if you are young and elite, you can handle an additional style or drastic style change. But you have to come in at 18, 19.

That's why JS Giguere had success back with Allaire. He came back, and played well. Then he had a rough second season behind an abysmal team and battling injury.

The fundamental point I think we're disagreeing on here is that you think all goalie coaches should be able to coach all styles - whereas what I'm saying is that Allaire can't do that. Allaire teaches the Franky Allaire style. You don't go to a karate guy and ask him to teach you jiu-jitsu because he's a "martial arts teacher".

Allaire may not have been the right guy in Toronto - but you can't put those goalies with that coach. Either bring in different goalies or don't bring Allaire into that role. Go and get Kari Lehtonen. Heck, Luongo would have been a great fit I think.

I agree with mostly everything you've said here, especially the bolded part as I never really thought about it like that. Mind you, I'd say there's a bigger difference between Karate and JJ than between a butterfly G and a hybrid G, but I definitely get the point your making.

However, the 'Franky Allaire' style is the style that's proven to be flawed in nowadays NHL. Like TGWL said, Lehtonen was mentioned alongside Quick, Rinne & Lundquist as goalies who have evolved with the sport (became hybrid goalies) who, while still retaining the fundamentals of the style Allaire teaches, evolved and improved in the areas that were exposed in modern day NHL. Allaire on the other hand continues to teach his style as if it were 10, even 5, years ago, and unlike the goalies themselves, hasn`t evolved his style. For a strictly butterfly goaltender, I`m sure Allaire may be a great coach for them, but that`s the point that Burke is making is that the butterfly goalie style is not as strong of a style as it used to be. If Allaire was able to tweak/hybridize his style to patch at least a few of the holes that were exposed, he may still have had a job with the Leafs (as awful as that is ) and may have had better results on his record for the past couple years.

At the end of the day though, we both I'm sure can agree that either Allaire wasn't the best choice for G coach, and/or the goalies brought in for him were a bad move by the scouts. I just think that Allaire, given how highly he's regarded by most, should have been able to do something with what he had.

@Toe: I'm kind of worried about the same thing. Gus may very well be a beast in Detroit.

[Toe]

I think Allaire was right to leave. I saw what Carlyle asked of him before he decided to leave the team, and it seemed pretty demeaning. It sounds like the Leafs coaching staff was pretty fractured last season. Maybe Carlyle is looking to retool and streamline things?

[Mountainous Cleavage]

I agree, I can't blame Allaire for not wanting to return, just as much though as I can't blame Burke for not wanting to bring him back. Hasn't really worked for either party so it's probably best to go separate ways.

Hockey's a 'what have you done for me lately' type of sport (more so to the players aspect, but still), and while Allaire did win a cup back in '07 with Anaheim, that's a good 5+ years ago and in Anaheim. Lately, he hasn't really done much for Toronto, so I hope for the best in the future with a new change.