Formula One 2009

[Adam]

This is a mistake by Button, I completely agree with Jackie Stewart and am disappointed with the move. I expect we'll see him playing second fiddle to Hamilton just as Kovalainen has for the last two years, I mean if even Alonso can't get in the way of Hamilton being the McLaren golden boy, then there's no chance in hell Button will. He will not come close to achieving what he has in 2009 again.

I'm also gutted that Raikkonen is leaving the sport, I wouldn't be surprised if it's for good, just like Hakkinen in 2001. Hope he does well in rallying, he was always one of my favourite drivers in Formula 1.

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

Didn't Mercedes want an all German drivers team hence Button feeling he had to move?

I'd imagine Button hopes he can start the season well and have more points than Hamilton by the half way point of the season and then hope that McLaren support him as the leading driver. Thing is Hamilton IS Mr. McLaren so I think in their view Hamilton HAS to be their number one driver.

[Adam]

Didn't Mercedes want an all German drivers team hence Button feeling he had to move?

Well I guess we'll find out when they announce their driver line-up, but Nick Fry said yesterday that that was incorrect speculation and that Mercedes still want to be portrayed as an international team with international drivers.

[Rich]

Didn't Mercedes want an all German drivers team hence Button feeling he had to move?

I'd imagine Button hopes he can start the season well and have more points than Hamilton by the half way point of the season and then hope that McLaren support him as the leading driver. Thing is Hamilton IS Mr. McLaren so I think in their view Hamilton HAS to be their number one driver.

Thats exactly as I see it, despite Button driving the car with No.1 on it next year Hamilton will always get preferential treatment by MacLaren. MacLaren will do it subconciously as well, its just their natural way nowadays

[hugobomb]

when did McLaren change their name?

But, Button will need to produce something very special next year to beat Lewis at Team Lewis ermm I mean McLaren

[Rich]

they changed name when I got tired

[Guest Raving Rich]

So then, so far we have:

Mercedes/Brawn: ?, ? (Rosberg 99% sure)

Ferrai: Alonso, Massa, (Fissichella testing)

McLaren: Hamilton, Button

Red Bull: Webber, Vettel

Williams: Baricello, Hulkenburg

Renault (If they race): Kubica, ?

Force India: ?, ? (Sutil and Liuzzi 99% sure)

STR: Buemi, ? (Aljesuari 99% sure)

Manor: Glock, ?

Campos: Senna, ?

Lotus: ?, ?

USGPE: ?, ?

Add Trulli and Kovalinen as "99% sure" to Lotus and Renault respectively and put Sauber/Qadbank as a possible team as well. After all the top drives are gone, Sutil is now say 99.9% sure to stay with Force India for 2010.

[hackerjack]

And McLaren aren't a one driver team, never have been, they will work to make teh car as fast as possible for both, if they lean towards one or the other it will be base on who they think is fastest, if Button can convince then thats him then he will gt the car he wants.

You're kidding right? they have been a one driver team for the past 2 seasons and then once Prost left them in the 80's through til 1993 they were a one driver team with Ayrton Senna, as much as I love Gerhard Berger it couldn't be seen any other way and Michael Andretti was a joke, and sadly for Button hamilton could be this generations Senna. And of course car handling is important, look at Fischella this season he was second to Raikonnen in a Ferrari in the Force India at Spa, and then when he moves to the unfamiliar car that doesn't suit him and is the team mate of Kimi he is nowhere near the pace as the car doesn't suit him.

I would agree with you about Brawn/Merc not having as good a car in 2011, but we are talking about a Brawn car this year that wasn't as good as it could have been at the start of the year as the car wasn't designed with the Mercedes engine in mind, but with a Honda engine yet they still dominated. Also NEVER EVER discount Ross Brawn and his genius, the guy must be the best designer/engineer of the past 20 years at least in F1, if he's not the best he is deifinitely in the top one.

I am just skeptical about Button changing team, its been very rare in the future for a World Champion to change teams and be successful in the subsequent season. Alonso wasn't, Schumacher wasn't, Hill wasn't , Prost wasn't, etc... Its why I worry more than anything.

Schumacher was pretty successful at Ferrari me thinks, not his first season granted but the Ferrari team had been crap for a while at that point, it was alonger term move. I dont think Button will come close to repeating his championship at McLaren, I just think he will be closer there than at Merc.

As for McLaren, when I said they have never beena one driver team I meant they have never taken tha approach that they deliberately hired a #1 and #2 driver like Ferrari, Renault and others have done in the past. Yes there have been times where onewas clearly swuperior but that was because of the available drivers and their own talents, not because of any favourable treatments. Kovelainnen was given the exact same chance as Hamilton to succeed and when they signed him they believed he could be a much better driver than he has turned into (so did most people).

[hackerjack]

So then, so far we have:

Mercedes/Brawn: ?, ? (Rosberg 99% sure)

Ferrai: Alonso, Massa, (Fissichella testing)

McLaren: Hamilton, Button

Red Bull: Webber, Vettel

Williams: Baricello, Hulkenburg

Renault (If they race): Kubica, ?

Force India: ?, ? (Sutil and Liuzzi 99% sure)

STR: Buemi, ? (Aljesuari 99% sure)

Manor: Glock, ?

Campos: Senna, ?

Lotus: ?, ?

USGPE: ?, ?

Add Trulli and Kovalinen as "99% sure" to Lotus and Renault respectively and put Sauber/Qadbank as a possible team as well. After all the top drives are gone, Sutil is now say 99.9% sure to stay with Force India for 2010.

I did say I expect Sutil at Force India once the second Merc seat is confirmed, until then I still think he has an outside chance of getting it.

Hadn't heard much of Trulli and Kovi, though it seems Trulli has something sorted as he has said is going to make an announcement in the next few weeks, to be honest I'm beginning to wonder if his NASCAR test isn't just a way for him to get publicity in the US and he's off to USGPE but we'll see. Either way I dont see both him and Kovi at Lotus because I still see Fauzy getting a drive there.

More interesting news is that a Russian has offered to buy 40% of the Renault team. They would love the money as it would guarentee their place next year pretty much, if it happens then it would probably see Vitali Petrov in the Renault next year.

[Rich]

And McLaren aren't a one driver team, never have been, they will work to make teh car as fast as possible for both, if they lean towards one or the other it will be base on who they think is fastest, if Button can convince then thats him then he will gt the car he wants.

You're kidding right? they have been a one driver team for the past 2 seasons and then once Prost left them in the 80's through til 1993 they were a one driver team with Ayrton Senna, as much as I love Gerhard Berger it couldn't be seen any other way and Michael Andretti was a joke, and sadly for Button hamilton could be this generations Senna. And of course car handling is important, look at Fischella this season he was second to Raikonnen in a Ferrari in the Force India at Spa, and then when he moves to the unfamiliar car that doesn't suit him and is the team mate of Kimi he is nowhere near the pace as the car doesn't suit him.

I would agree with you about Brawn/Merc not having as good a car in 2011, but we are talking about a Brawn car this year that wasn't as good as it could have been at the start of the year as the car wasn't designed with the Mercedes engine in mind, but with a Honda engine yet they still dominated. Also NEVER EVER discount Ross Brawn and his genius, the guy must be the best designer/engineer of the past 20 years at least in F1, if he's not the best he is deifinitely in the top one.

I am just skeptical about Button changing team, its been very rare in the future for a World Champion to change teams and be successful in the subsequent season. Alonso wasn't, Schumacher wasn't, Hill wasn't , Prost wasn't, etc... Its why I worry more than anything.

Schumacher was pretty successful at Ferrari me thinks, not his first season granted but the Ferrari team had been crap for a while at that point, it was alonger term move. I dont think Button will come close to repeating his championship at McLaren, I just think he will be closer there than at Merc.

As for McLaren, when I said they have never beena one driver team I meant they have never taken tha approach that they deliberately hired a #1 and #2 driver like Ferrari, Renault and others have done in the past. Yes there have been times where onewas clearly swuperior but that was because of the available drivers and their own talents, not because of any favourable treatments. Kovelainnen was given the exact same chance as Hamilton to succeed and when they signed him they believed he could be a much better driver than he has turned into (so did most people).

Notice I stated SUBSEQUENT SEASON.

I should have been clear when I pointed out that I also meant successful in defending their title (which I know is difficult even if you stay with the same team).

Flinging Schumacher at me gets you know where either as he is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to success. Taking him our of the equation it is very unusual to see a drive in the modern era of F1 to be successful in one team and then switch to another team and have equal success, looking back over the history of f1 the only drivers to have won the world title with two different teams since 1970 are: Schumacner (Benetton and Ferrari), Prost (Mclaren and Williams), Piquet (Brabham and Williams), Lauda (Mclaren and Ferrari) and Stewart (Tyrell and Matra(1969)). Unfortunately for Jenson I do not think he is a driver I could put with any of those names if I was to choose and all time fan-dabi-dozi list, all of those names I list are synonomous with the best ever. Button isn't and in my opinion he will not be, not to see his isn't very very gifted and very good and has the world chamionship to prove it but he is hardly a Schumacher or a Stewart is he guys? IMO there are only three guys on the grid from this season who have the potential to be put into that group of f1 best drivers of all time and that's Vettel, Hamiton and Alonso.

[KoA]

Ahh all you naysayers about Button...Never say never; I have sneaking feeling he CAN retain it. With a fan-dabi-dozi deal of adjustment obviously, but I feel he's a versatile driver and he'll settle in at McLaren extremely quickly.

Edited November 20, 2009 by KoA

[Rich]

Don't get me wrong, I would love for Button to prove me wrong and go on and win the title again, which would make me reconsider my opinion on him as a fan-dabi-dozi driver. But when push comes to shove I don't think he is one of the fastest drivers on the grid for pure pace. He is technically one of the best drivers on the grid, which may actually help him next year in terms of tire wear because of the fat cars at the beginning of the race with no refueling.

[KoA]

Agreed, and I think one certainty, for me at least, despite the fact Ferrari are going to be very strong, is McLaren taking the constructors title for the first time since 1998. I think they'll top Ferrari next season, but it'll be very, very close.

[hackerjack]

looking back over the history of f1 the only drivers to have won the world title with two different teams since 1970 are: Schumacner (Benetton and Ferrari), Prost (Mclaren and Williams), Piquet (Brabham and Williams), Lauda (Mclaren and Ferrari) and Stewart (Tyrell and Matra(1969)).

I know this is going to make me sound like an arse but from 1970 there have only been 9 drivers who have won two or more titles in total, your five plus Senna, Fittipaldi, Hakkinen and Alonso. So most repeat champions did in fact win for multiple teams .

[Guest Raving Rich]

So then, so far we have:

Mercedes/Brawn: ?, ? (Rosberg 99% sure)

Ferrai: Alonso, Massa, (Fissichella testing)

McLaren: Hamilton, Button

Red Bull: Webber, Vettel

Williams: Baricello, Hulkenburg

Renault (If they race): Kubica, ?

Force India: ?, ? (Sutil and Liuzzi 99% sure)

STR: Buemi, ? (Aljesuari 99% sure)

Manor: Glock, ?

Campos: Senna, ?

Lotus: ?, ?

USGPE: ?, ?

Add Trulli and Kovalinen as "99% sure" to Lotus and Renault respectively and put Sauber/Qadbank as a possible team as well. After all the top drives are gone, Sutil is now say 99.9% sure to stay with Force India for 2010.

I did say I expect Sutil at Force India once the second Merc seat is confirmed, until then I still think he has an outside chance of getting it.

Hadn't heard much of Trulli and Kovi, though it seems Trulli has something sorted as he has said is going to make an announcement in the next few weeks, to be honest I'm beginning to wonder if his NASCAR test isn't just a way for him to get publicity in the US and he's off to USGPE but we'll see. Either way I dont see both him and Kovi at Lotus because I still see Fauzy getting a drive there.

More interesting news is that a Russian has offered to buy 40% of the Renault team. They would love the money as it would guarentee their place next year pretty much, if it happens then it would probably see Vitali Petrov in the Renault next year.

Actually, I said Kovalinen was more likely going to take the second seat at Renault.

Anyway, Pedro De La Rosa and Argentine driver Jose Maria Lopez have been linked with USF1. Also, the FIA are considering legal action against Toyota for breach of contract after they pulled out because the concorde agreement they signed binded them to F1 until after the 2012 season, and this by the way is delaying the confirmation of Sauber/Qadbank on the grid for 2010.

[Rich]

looking back over the history of f1 the only drivers to have won the world title with two different teams since 1970 are: Schumacner (Benetton and Ferrari), Prost (Mclaren and Williams), Piquet (Brabham and Williams), Lauda (Mclaren and Ferrari) and Stewart (Tyrell and Matra(1969)).

I know this is going to make me sound like an arse but from 1970 there have only been 9 drivers who have won two or more titles in total, your five plus Senna, Fittipaldi, Hakkinen and Alonso. So most repeat champions did in fact win for multiple teams .

Touché my friend, my point still stands though that its only the fan-dabi-dozi drivers who do it

Honestly though I still stand my my feelings of Jenson Button, really really good but still not a true legend, he wont be mentioned in the same breath as a Senna, Schumacher, Prost or a Fangio, but you could easily put him in a group with Hakkinen, Hill, Mansell, Scheckter or a Keke Rosberg, a driver who was very talented but not one who defined a period in the sport. I.e Fangio defines the earliest of seasons, Clark/Hill the 1960's, Stewart/Lauda the 1970's, Piquet/Prost/Senna the 1980's, Senna/Mansell the early 1990's, Schumacher/Hakkinen mid to late 1990's and Schumacher the early 2000's. I am now wondering who will be the driver to define the latter part of this decade... It will not be Button, maybe Alonso? Maybe Hamilton? What do you guys reckon?

[Adam]

Well the second half of this decade is now over with in terms of F1, and your champions of that era are Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton & Button. I don't think anyone driver or team has defined that, and if you go for a more general full decade, then Schumacher must be the man to define Formula 1 in the 'Noughties', what with his five titles and all.

EDIT: Mercedes after Schumacher

This is just getting silly now. At this rate I'm not even gonna bother watching it next year.

Edited November 20, 2009 by AdamDRFC

[Guest Raving Rich]

Well the second half of this decade is now over with in terms of F1, and your champions of that era are Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton & Button. I don't think anyone driver or team has defined that, and if you go for a more general full decade, then Schumacher must be the man to define Formula 1 in the 'Noughties', what with his five titles and all.

EDIT: Mercedes after Schumacher

This is just getting silly now. At this rate I'm not even gonna bother watching it next year.

If that's the case then Sutil will re-new his contract with Force India and Heidfeld's only chance of signing for Mercedes would be as a test driver. Shame.

[KoA]

Well the second half of this decade is now over with in terms of F1, and your champions of that era are Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton & Button. I don't think anyone driver or team has defined that, and if you go for a more general full decade, then Schumacher must be the man to define Formula 1 in the 'Noughties', what with his five titles and all.

EDIT: Mercedes after Schumacher

This is just getting silly now. At this rate I'm not even gonna bother watching it next year.

If that's the case then Sutil will re-new his contract with Force India and Heidfeld's only chance of signing for Mercedes would be as a test driver. Shame.

Shame; I really want to see Nick on the grid in a good car this year. Better hope Sauber manage to get that grid place sooner rather than later.

[Rich]

I for one am all for Michael coming back. I hate his cheating arrogant German guts but I want to see Hamilton vs Schumacher dammit