Official Premier League 2009/10 thread

[HailtotheYo]

Finished third in 05/06 and 06/07, fourth in 07/08, and second in 08/09. That's hardly 'progressively' falling off the pace. We've mostly battled with Arsenal for third though, and given the superior resources available to Man Utd and Chelsea (and the difference in squads amongst the top four when Rafa arrived) I'd say that's about as good as can be expected. His record in the Champions League over this time (vital for the money it brought into the club, it basically paid for his net expenditure) is also as good as anyone's.

We're massively underachieving this season, and yet we're still only four points off fourth. Given his record so far, he deserves a chance to put it right.

You mean that huge difference in squads ... that saw Liverpool win the Champions League when he got there ? I don't see how that helps you out, but ok.

I pointed out that last year was the exception. 05/06 = 9pts back ... 06/07 = 20pts back ... 07/08 11pts back but dropped a spot ... and then last year's exception, and now they're falling apart quite literally. They're already out of both cups and the Champions League this year. And all the CL monies ? They've afforded him a squad he can't keep on the pitch let alone top 4 ? The other "almost squads" like Villa/Man City/Tottenham are moving forward, not backward like Liverpool.

CL showings are great, but it's all about the Premiership. The fact that he's got the showings he does in the CL, and conversely in the EPL, and he's under the firing squad shows that.

[therockbox]

Finished third in 05/06 and 06/07, fourth in 07/08, and second in 08/09. That's hardly 'progressively' falling off the pace. We've mostly battled with Arsenal for third though, and given the superior resources available to Man Utd and Chelsea (and the difference in squads amongst the top four when Rafa arrived) I'd say that's about as good as can be expected. His record in the Champions League over this time (vital for the money it brought into the club, it basically paid for his net expenditure) is also as good as anyone's.

We're massively underachieving this season, and yet we're still only four points off fourth. Given his record so far, he deserves a chance to put it right.

You mean that huge difference in squads ... that saw Liverpool win the Champions League when he got there ? I don't see how that helps you out, but ok.

Winning the Champions League, which is essentially a knockout competition, is an entirely different prospect to winning arguably the best league in the world over 38 games.

I pointed out that last year was the exception. 05/06 = 9pts back ... 06/07 = 20pts back ... 07/08 11pts back but dropped a spot ... and then last year's exception, and now they're falling apart quite literally.

You also said that we were progressively falling off the pace - that quite clearly isn't true.

And all the CL monies ? They've afforded him a squad he can't keep on the pitch let alone top 4 ?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The money spent is to blame for our injuries? They've been awful this season but I don't see what money has to do with them.

And we'll see about the top four. Despite all the problems - injuries and ownership, lack of confidence, almost all the players underperforming in a season that was written off before Christmas - we're four points off fourth.

The other "almost squads" like Villa/Man City/Tottenham are moving forward, not backward like Liverpool.

This is true, although this is mostly to do with these clubs having competent owners. It's pointless talking about Man City in terms of squad progression because of the money they've spent (Hughes equaled Rafa's spending over his entire reign within two summers), but Villa and Spurs (and even a team like Sunderland) are now in a situation where they're getting significant investment every single summer. On the other hand, we're having to sell to buy, and scrabbling around the desert desperately looking for a little bit of investment. Since Rafa took over we've been the fourth highest wage payers in the league, this season Man City have also overtaken us and I'm fairly sure Spurs aren't that far behind either. Changing the manager isn't going to change this situation though - and if Rafa does go it won't be the likes of Hiddink or Mourinho replacing him as some people laughably suggest, it'll be a yes man like Klinsmann.

CL showings are great, but it's all about the Premiership.

Only to people with an agenda. For a team like us saying it's "all about the Premiership" is a complete waste of time. We haven't been a position to be able to expect to win it since Souness, and short of massive investment that isn't going to change.

[HailtotheYo]

Winning the Champions League, which is essentially a knockout competition, is an entirely different prospect to winning arguably the best league in the world over 38 games.

Right, but your point was about the difference in squads. They were able to win and two years later were runners up. The quality of the squad was clearly there.

You also said that we were progressively falling off the pace - that quite clearly isn't true.

So then falling off in points, falling back in position ... is an up trend ? They've had one pop in the last five years (counting this year). In that five years they've gone from nine points back in third, to 7th .... how is that not a down turn ?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The money spent is to blame for our injuries? They've been awful this season but I don't see what money has to do with them.

You said that he'd brought in all these monies from the CL. My point, is that it has done what exactly ? He's purchased players that he can't even field.

And we'll see about the top four. Despite all the problems - injuries and ownership, lack of confidence, almost all the players underperforming in a season that was written off before Christmas - we're four points off fourth.

So fourth is the goal ? Fourth is the point here ? I completely understand and respect you're "glass half full'ng" it ... but uh, the situation is bad and Rafa isn't helping matters any.

This is true, although this is mostly to do with these clubs having competent owners. It's pointless talking about Man City in terms of squad progression because of the money they've spent (Hughes equaled Rafa's spending over his entire reign within two summers), but Villa and Spurs (and even a team like Sunderland) are now in a situation where they're getting significant investment every single summer. On the other hand, we're having to sell to buy, and scrabbling around the desert desperately looking for a little bit of investment. Since Rafa took over we've been the fourth highest wage payers in the league, this season Man City have also overtaken us and I'm fairly sure Spurs aren't that far behind either. Changing the manager isn't going to change this situation though - and if Rafa does go it won't be the likes of Hiddink or Mourinho replacing him as some people laughably suggest, it'll be a yes man like Klinsmann.

I never said that Rafa was the only person to blame. In fact, I believe that my original comment was to gut the team from top to bottom. Whether it's for better or worse, a managerial change will change it one way or the other. I don't think it is the sole answer, but certainly part of it.

=======================

The fuck is all this Diaby hate I constantly see lately? He's coming along greatly I feel. Sometimes great at dribbling with the ball for his height and build, fits into the Arsenal team brilliantly I'd say. Just never understood why so many people put the guy down when he's clearly improving his game and will only get better.

then I guess it just so happens to be every game that FSC airs for Arsenal, he loses 99% possession. The guy can't hold the ball at all. He looks retarded with his feet any time he does anything other than dribble straight forward. He's horrid.

Edited January 17, 2010 by HailtotheKing

[therockbox]

Right, but your point was about the difference in squads. They were able to win and two years later were runners up. The quality of the squad was clearly there.

Well, the quality was there to excel in one competition and simply maintain 'par' in the other. It's also worth pointing out that some of the most important players in the Champions League run (specifically Luis Garcia and Xabi Alonso) were his buys. He also turned Carragher into one of the best centre backs in Europe, with Traore and Finnan (who had been a disappointment in his first season) into an incredibly good defensive unit.

So then falling off in points, falling back in position ... is an up trend ? They've had one pop in the last five years (counting this year). In that five years they've gone from nine points back in third, to 7th .... how is that not a down turn ?

We've gone up and down in the Premier League, although generally the points we've amassed each season has gone up. In 04/05 we got 58, 05/06 - 82 (a 'blip' in terms of the general progression), 06/07 - 68, 07/08 - 76 and 08/09 - 86 (our highest points total in PL history). That's not getting progressively worse, that's a fairly steady improvement. This season will obviously go down (quite a bit, although I think the eventual winners' total will be lower than normal as well), but five years shouldn't be disregarded on the back of one poor season.

You said that he'd brought in all these monies from the CL. My point, is that it has done what exactly ? He's purchased players that he can't even field.

These two things aren't related, though. Are you saying if he'd spent less money there'd be less injuries? None of the players we've had missing this season, with the exception of Agger, Aquilani (who was out for around 2 months longer than independent experts advised before we signed him) and Torres (who is generally injured whilst on international duty) are particularly injury prone, it's just been a ridiculously unlucky season injury-wise.

I'd understand you saying he's signed players he can't use if he'd spent a shitload on South American youngsters that couldn't get work permits, but that simply isn't the case.

So fourth is the goal ? Fourth is the point here ? I completely understand and respect you're "glass half full'ng" it ... but uh, the situation is bad and Rafa isn't helping matters any.

Right now, fourth is absolutely the goal. After the start we've had it would be stupid for us to aim any higher.

That said, the target at the beginning of the season, realistically at least, shouldn't have been to equal (or better) last year. We clearly punched above our weight, with the fantastic run at the end skewing things somewhat. If our season had been reversed (unstoppable first half, up and down second half) then expectations for this season would have been completely different - especially with what happened during the summer.

It's not being 'half glass full' at all, I'm well aware we've had an awful season so far and are ridiculously lucky that, up until now, Spurs, Man City and Villa have been unable to pull away from us. The Champions League exit was disappointing, although we're not alone in having been knocked out of that particular competition earlier than expected for one season, and there is no excuse for the loss against Reading.

That said, ultimately, the most important thing now is maintaining our position in the top four. Through sheer luck we're still in the position to do that.

I never said that Rafa was the only person to blame. In fact, I believe that my original comment was to gut the team from top to bottom. Whether it's for better or worse, a managerial change will change it one way or the other. I don't think it is the sole answer, but certainly part of it.

Changing the manager doesn't necessarily mean a change for the better, though. We're not an attractive proposition, despite the Liverpool name, and if we end up with someone like Klinsmann then I think we'd see things get a lot worse than they are right now.

[HailtotheYo]

We've gone up and down in the Premier League, although generally the points we've amassed each season has gone up. In 04/05 we got 58, 05/06 - 82 (a 'blip' in terms of the general progression), 06/07 - 68, 07/08 - 76 and 08/09 - 86 (our highest points total in PL history). That's not getting progressively worse, that's a fairly steady improvement. This season will obviously go down (quite a bit, although I think the eventual winners' total will be lower than normal as well), but five years shouldn't be disregarded on the back of one poor season.

Ok, so as long as your point total improves, everything is on the up and up ? I can't agree with you on that considering that despite your point total slowly inching up as you've pointed out ... your position in the table has slowly dropped off and you aren't actually getting closer to the league winner. You've fallen into position to even be lucky to hope for 4th and have three other teams now fighting you for that rather than looking up at you. This year's abysmal (relatively speaking here) performance has shown that of the last five years, the 2nd place finish was the blip while the slide in position appears to be more the telling tale here. Honestly, your points are only relative to where they place you in the league.

Well, the quality was there to excel in one competition and simply maintain 'par' in the other. It's also worth pointing out that some of the most important players in the Champions League run (specifically Luis Garcia and Xabi Alonso) were his buys. He also turned Carragher into one of the best centre backs in Europe, with Traore and Finnan (who had been a disappointment in his first season) into an incredibly good defensive unit.

-----

These two things aren't related, though. Are you saying if he'd spent less money there'd be less injuries? None of the players we've had missing this season, with the exception of Agger, Aquilani (who was out for around 2 months longer than independent experts advised before we signed him) and Torres (who is generally injured whilst on international duty) are particularly injury prone, it's just been a ridiculously unlucky season injury-wise.

I'd understand you saying he's signed players he can't use if he'd spent a shitload on South American youngsters that couldn't get work permits, but that simply isn't the case.

I guess then, what's YOUR point about the CL monies ? If you don't think they're relative to his player acquisitions, then what are they put into ? Certainly some (if not all) of his transfer kitty comes from those monies. While admirable, creating (or signing) great individual talent hasn't translated for Rafa. He has an underperforming, injury riddled squad. If a player is out injured he can't use them. The ones that are on the pitch are underperforming and lacking in several areas. That reflects management.

So I go back to my original statement. Gut the squad from top to bottom. Ownership needs to roll over, coaching, and there are players that need to change over as well.

[therockbox]

An increasing points total indicates that we're improving because we're gaining more points over the course of a league season. I agree that second last year was a 'blip' in the sense that we overachieved, but this season's underachievement shouldn't be judged against last season's overachievement. It should be judged against this year's realistic targets - the main one obviously being to maintain our place in the top four despite Man City's obscene spending and Spurs/Villa's progression to the stage where they should be pushing for fourth as well. Right now we're failing to do that, clearly (as well as the failure in the cups and Europe), but we're still in with a chance of remaining in the top four.

He has an underperforming, injury riddled squad. If a player is out injured he can't use them.

But again, how is a ridiculous injury list the fault of actually spending money he's earned through the Champions League (this is how I read your original point, apologies if I got that wrong)? The only players I can think of that we've signed who have had a poor record with injuries before coming to us are Aquilani and Aurelio (who, relatively at least, has been fit for a fair amount this year). The others - Johnson, Kelly (Johnson's backup, after his performance against Lyon), Agger, Riera, Gerrard, Benayoun and El Zhar (an extra body on the right would have helped immensely) have been fairly freak occurrences, and it's unfortunate that they've all occurred in the same period. With these you've also got Skrtel, who spent the first 6 weeks or so playing with a broken jaw after the headbutt by Carragher, and Kuyt, who picked up a slight ankle knock in the second round of internationals, struggled to shake that off for a month or so. People say Torres is 'clearly injury prone' but I don't think that's entirely fair, it wasn't until his second season with us that injuries really became a problem and he was picking up the same injury whilst away on international duty with Spain. This season he picked up another injury during internationals, and this is something that's almost entirely beyond the club's (regardless of the manager) control.

You could make an argument to say that we should have signed a backup - but we tried to do that in the summer. Even after the Aquilani and Johnson signings it was made clear to Rafa that there was money available to spend. Then the owners did there trick of saying that, actually, money used to tie up the likes of Agger and Kuyt to new contracts was coming out of the transfer budget - leaving Rafa with fuck all to spend all of a sudden. This situation doesn't change or go away if you get rid of the manager and bring someone else in.

Gut the squad from top to bottom. Ownership needs to roll over, coaching, and there are players that need to change over as well.

The fish rots from the head down, and so have we. Changing the manager, staff and players means fuck all if Hicks and Gillett are still in charge. We'd still have massive debt, be struggling to pay off the interest on that debt (let alone the debt itself), be unable to build the new stadium which would help alleviate that debt and have owners that don't get on, bicker in public and have an unrealistic price on the club. On top of that, if Rafa goes (bearing in mind it would cost upwards of £20m to sack him and the staff that would inevitably follow) he'd be replaced by a manager that is in place to keep the wage bill down, keep schtum about the owners' fuck ups and ensure we remain in the top half of the table. No thanks. For all his faults, he's the best man for this shitty, poisoned chalice of a job.

[NobBe Nobbs]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/soccer/01/18/thierry.henry/index.html?eref=sihp

Football's becoming a joke. That's a good reason why. No reason to punish Henry my pasty white arse.

[Dynamite]

The handball alone is a yellow-card offence. If FIFA gave him anything more than that then it'd be a joke (sort of like the Eduardo incident). The only complication in the whole thing is that Gallas scored right from it, but that's still no reason to give Henry a punishment worse than what the rules of the game say.

[Bryan Blade]

My god give the liverpool talk a rest will ye it's boring ye were a big team in the 80's how long ago was that you've no divine right to do well in the league. Take torres,reina,gerrard and torres out of you're team and what have ya got? A team like bolton or wigan seriously get over yer selves

[therockbox]

Fuck off and let the grown-ups talk

[EddieG]

My god give the liverpool talk a rest will ye it's boring ye were a big team in the 80's how long ago was that you've no divine right to do well in the league. Take torres,reina,gerrard and torres out of you're team and what have ya got? A team like bolton or wigan seriously get over yer selves

And you support... ? My guess would be Everton ?

[Hobo]

My god give the liverpool talk a rest will ye it's boring ye were a big team in the 80's how long ago was that you've no divine right to do well in the league. Take torres,reina,gerrard and torres out of you're team and what have ya got? A team like bolton or wigan seriously get over yer selves

Nice to know you actually read what was posted (Y)

[HailtotheYo]

well he's got a point ... if you took torres out of the squad twice, that'd hurt a bit

[EddieG]

We would however have twice the amount of injuries less though

[Blue Rosler]

West Ham takeover confirmed as David Gold & David Sullivan, which I think is the best for the club. Isn't one of them a fan of West Ham? (Or at least said in an interview that he really likes them.) They've cleared the debts and apparently have a bit of cash to spend in January. Gianfranco Zola's job is safe, and Gudjohnsen/Benjani are rumoured to be the new strikers.

Seems like a good option for West Ham.

[NobBe Nobbs]

The handball alone is a yellow-card offence. If FIFA gave him anything more than that then it'd be a joke (sort of like the Eduardo incident). The only complication in the whole thing is that Gallas scored right from it, but that's still no reason to give Henry a punishment worse than what the rules of the game say.

No, you're wrong.

The handball alone is a red-card offense - like, straight red, since there's no conceivable way to argue it was an accident unless you're actually mentally retarded and love drawing on your face with crayons, what with him handling it TWICE. Then Gallas scored from it - if football were fair in any way, that goal would have been disallowed, either at the time or retroactively, since it would not have occurred without Henry's shameless cheating. Even before this, the playoff seeding malarkey appears to have been thought up to ensure the "big teams" made it in; the fact FIFA has sat on their hands about this is not surprising, but it is a complete joke to everybody who's not French.

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

The handball alone is a yellow-card offence. If FIFA gave him anything more than that then it'd be a joke (sort of like the Eduardo incident). The only complication in the whole thing is that Gallas scored right from it, but that's still no reason to give Henry a punishment worse than what the rules of the game say.

No, you're wrong.

The handball alone is a red-card offense - like, straight red, since there's no conceivable way to argue it was an accident unless you're actually mentally retarded and love drawing on your face with crayons, what with him handling it TWICE. Then Gallas scored from it - if football were fair in any way, that goal would have been disallowed, either at the time or retroactively, since it would not have occurred without Henry's shameless cheating. Even before this, the playoff seeding malarkey appears to have been thought up to ensure the "big teams" made it in; the fact FIFA has sat on their hands about this is not surprising, but it is a complete joke to everybody who's not French.

That's NEVER a red card. Never has been and probably never will be. I cant actually remember the last time a red card was given for handling the ball like that, it'd be fucking pathetic to do so actually. It's a joke that some people actually believe it's a fact that Henry was trying to cheat. I'm not saying the goal was fair or should of stood, but sometimes people do these things out of instinct and reactions. Whatever it was, after the game there's nothing that can be done or really should be done. Replaying the match would of been a joke, especially when something like this happens on a weekly basis. And punishing Henry for a handball would also have been a joke. Of course if it had been the other end with Keane doing it, we'd have forgotten about it all and would have been looking forward to the World Cup. It's happened, nothing is going to change and it's over, move on.

[stokeriño]

They cannot disallow the goal retroactively. Nor can they ban Henry for an offence that was not spotted/addressed during the match - unless you would like an onslaught of 500,000 cases being brought to FIFA for every unaddressed infraction (real or merely perceived) caught on camera, and a new three or four to add every time there's even a slightly contentious refereeing decision. Naturally, this would be untenable.

Arguing that this strengthens the case for future changes re: video technology, officials on the goal line etc. is one thing. Arguing that FIFA should impose ad hoc punishment on what few infractions happen to garner sufficient public attention is another.

[stokeriño]

To move things along...

Does anyone at all believe that Bolton won't get flattened at the Emirates on Wednesday, thus sending Arsenal top of the table?

[HailtotheYo]

If they came out like they did this weekend they can easily catch Arsenal flat footed and be up by two before anyone on the Gunners have figured out the match started