EWR 2012 Stats Update: July ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[notatardis]

Well to play devil's advocate... if we bumped up TNA to Global to avoid the overness issue, why not pre-emptively lower everyone's overness by the amount they will gain, so when they do get there, they will be at a correct number? Same ends, different means?

[Guest Team 720]

I agree with the majority of 720's list except the following:

Finlay - Big deal on the indies, I'd say nearly on-par with Davey Richards. 73.

Low Ki - He's on-par with Davey Richards or Homicide. 74.

Shelton Benjamin - A big deal in ROH. 72.

Charlie Haas - See above. 70.

Rhino - Still well known. 73.

El Generico - One of the biggest sensations on the indies today. 73.

Mike Quackenbush - He's at 67 currently so he can be a main eventer is Chikara, which reflects his real-life overness (in Chikara) and card position. Since he is unsackable there, I so no reason why he should be lowered. 67.

Sami Callihan - One of the biggest stars on the indy scene today. 64 is more than fair.

Jeremy Borash - 63.

Johnny Gargano - See Sami Callihan. 61.

DJ Hyde - One of CZW's top heels, 52, where he currently at, is an understatement if anything.

Here is my points:

Besides the EVOLVE and now few ROH shots Finlay has done, is he that over in his appearances? To me he has been a special attraction for both promotions thus far.

Low Ki doesn't have the same buzz he did before he went to TNA in 2006 and more or less wrestles in Japan.

The World's Greatest Tag Team have not really been over together since they broke up in 2007 for Benjamin's first jump to ECW.

Rhino's star has cooled since his WWE run and had a slight resurgence with TNA but not enough to be where he currently is (and on-par with Sean Waltman)

Is Generico really on the same level with midcarders in WWE?

Quacks is based on CHIKARA alone which is the only promotion where he is a borderline main eventer. I do not see him that high.

Callihan is a draw in CZW but how is he that much more than Drake Younger and AR Fox who are his greatest rivals?

Johnny Gargano is over but why wouldn't Chuck Taylor be more over than he would?

DJ Hyde I lowered based on who his contemporaries at 52 were.

In my opinion, death match workers should have their brawl lowered if anything. So they can hit each other with weapons....anyone can do that, they are just willing to take it.

There is a big difference between a Brain Damage and Danny Havoc death match and a Mike Foley and Terry Funk Death Match. It's about the story, not hitting each other with shit.

Not to be rude, but this sounds like it is coming from someone who doesn't properly understand or appreciate death match wrestling (and understandably so, given its reputation). Sure, sometimes it is about hitting guys over and over again with weapons with no rhyme or reason. The guys who do that have lower stats. A good death match wrestler puts psychology into his matches to make a compelling story. Brain Damage is a great death match wrestler, as is Danny Havoc (if you think he isn't about story, watch his recent barbed wire match vs. Drew Gulak, it was incredible). Other examples of guys who are GOOD death match wrestlers include Sami Callihan, Drake Younger, Masada, DJ Hyde, and Matt Tremont (he gets better with every match).

Here's the thing with deathmatches. The psychology of a deathmatch is a fickle thing. I have watched several from CZW Tournament of the Death as well as FMW, WSX and lucha death matches. IMO the crash through tables, light tube log cabins and barbed wire boards that I've seen in CZW or even the lucha attempts at death matches is meh. Not knocking it but it is not as psychological as a Foley-Funk deathmatch from FMW or IWA (Japan.)

Edit: Callihan is strong at brawling in a hands on way as well as ultra-violence and solid at speed and pretty good at submissions. Also after seeing the video Rich Swann still has not shown anything enough to warrant a 50 from me...

Like I said, that match didn't showcase his ability a whole lot. Unfortunately his matches with Sami from NWA-F1 aren't online, just the DVD to purchase it, but he really showcases his brawling skills there in wild arena-wide brawls. At the very least he should have late 60s to early 70s. No lower than 68 IMO.

I am not denying that he COULD see it, but I have not seen the evidence to prove this. To me he is OK at it which I why I say he should be in the mid 50's and definitely not the 70's like you think.

Edit: If I am not mistaken Finlay should be added back to WWE as a staff member as he taken a role as a producer again.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Team 720

[KrisClassic]

Responses in bold.

I agree with the majority of 720's list except the following:

Finlay - Big deal on the indies, I'd say nearly on-par with Davey Richards. 73.

Low Ki - He's on-par with Davey Richards or Homicide. 74.

Shelton Benjamin - A big deal in ROH. 72.

Charlie Haas - See above. 70.

Rhino - Still well known. 73.

El Generico - One of the biggest sensations on the indies today. 73.

Mike Quackenbush - He's at 67 currently so he can be a main eventer is Chikara, which reflects his real-life overness (in Chikara) and card position. Since he is unsackable there, I so no reason why he should be lowered. 67.

Sami Callihan - One of the biggest stars on the indy scene today. 64 is more than fair.

Jeremy Borash - 63.

Johnny Gargano - See Sami Callihan. 61.

DJ Hyde - One of CZW's top heels, 52, where he currently at, is an understatement if anything.

Here is my points:

Besides the EVOLVE and now few ROH shots Finlay has done, is he that over in his appearances? To me he has been a special attraction for both promotions thus far. Special attraction, yes, but still he is a big deal when used as one.

Low Ki doesn't have the same buzz he did before he went to TNA in 2006 and more or less wrestles in Japan. I'll take that as valid. He is still being mega-pushed by DG-USA. I'd say 71 at least.

The World's Greatest Tag Team have not really been over together since they broke up in 2007 for Benjamin's first jump to ECW. They are now in ROH.

Rhino's star has cooled since his WWE run and had a slight resurgence with TNA but not enough to be where he currently is (and on-par with Sean Waltman) I'd at least put him on par with Davey Richards.

Is Generico really on the same level with midcarders in WWE? No, but neither is Davey Richards. He is one of the most over guys on the indies now and should be in the early 70s.

Quacks is based on CHIKARA alone which is the only promotion where he is a borderline main eventer. I do not see him that high. Borderline? He is one of the biggest stars in Chikara. If we base it on Chikara alone he deserves 67, which would put him in the main event slot (which he is, realistically). And since he is unsackable with Chikara, I think we should base his overness entirely on that.

Callihan is a draw in CZW but how is he that much more than Drake Younger and AR Fox who are his greatest rivals? Easily, yes.

Johnny Gargano is over but why wouldn't Chuck Taylor be more over than he would? Chuck Taylor has been around longer but Taylor has more momentum behind him, he is consisently being used in a bigger capacity.

DJ Hyde I lowered based on who his contemporaries at 52 were. I'd leave DJ as is, raise Anthony Nese up to 58, Gary Wolfe up to 56, Jazz (with her recent resurgence on the indy scene in a high profile way) up to 55, and Teddy Hart up to 56.

In my opinion, death match workers should have their brawl lowered if anything. So they can hit each other with weapons....anyone can do that, they are just willing to take it.

There is a big difference between a Brain Damage and Danny Havoc death match and a Mike Foley and Terry Funk Death Match. It's about the story, not hitting each other with shit.

Not to be rude, but this sounds like it is coming from someone who doesn't properly understand or appreciate death match wrestling (and understandably so, given its reputation). Sure, sometimes it is about hitting guys over and over again with weapons with no rhyme or reason. The guys who do that have lower stats. A good death match wrestler puts psychology into his matches to make a compelling story. Brain Damage is a great death match wrestler, as is Danny Havoc (if you think he isn't about story, watch his recent barbed wire match vs. Drew Gulak, it was incredible). Other examples of guys who are GOOD death match wrestlers include Sami Callihan, Drake Younger, Masada, DJ Hyde, and Matt Tremont (he gets better with every match).

Here's the thing with deathmatches. The psychology of a deathmatch is a fickle thing. I have watched several from CZW Tournament of the Death as well as FMW, WSX and lucha death matches. IMO the crash through tables, light tube log cabins and barbed wire boards that I've seen in CZW or even the lucha attempts at death matches is meh. Not knocking it but it is not as psychological as a Foley-Funk deathmatch from FMW or IWA (Japan.)

Just because the death matches you've watched were bad doesn't mean all of them are. Again, I direct you to the recent Gulak vs. Havoc, or just about anything Sami Callihan's ever done.

Edit: Callihan is strong at brawling in a hands on way as well as ultra-violence and solid at speed and pretty good at submissions. Also after seeing the video Rich Swann still has not shown anything enough to warrant a 50 from me...

Like I said, that match didn't showcase his ability a whole lot. Unfortunately his matches with Sami from NWA-F1 aren't online, just the DVD to purchase it, but he really showcases his brawling skills there in wild arena-wide brawls. At the very least he should have late 60s to early 70s. No lower than 68 IMO.

I am not denying that he COULD see it, but I have not seen the evidence to prove this. To me he is OK at it which I why I say he should be in the mid 50's and definitely not the 70's like you think.

It's tough when very often promotions don't let him showcase his brawling ability because his fast paced, high flying style if so spectacular. I maintain that based on brawls I've seen him have in NWA F1 he should be in the sixties-seventies, but I'll let Bill make the ultimate call.

-Check SS Look for Sam Shields.

-Raise Danny E's brawl to 43, technical to 46, and selling to 67.

-Raise Chris Steeler's brawl to 52 and charisma to 69.

-Check Menacing for Chris Raaber. Raise his charisma to 59.

Edited July 19, 2012 by KrisClassic

[MaSc]

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Edited July 19, 2012 by MaSc

[Kevin Gump]

Add Chavo Guerrero to TNA

Source:http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/247144/TNA-Signs-Chavo-Guerrero-.htm

[MaSc]

Add the stable LivE to ROH with Kevin Steen, Steve Corino and Jimmy Jacobs as the members

Rename Corino and Jacobs to LivE.

Rename to S.C.U.M. (Suffering, Chaos, Ugliness, and Mayhem)

[KrisClassic]

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Well said. The idea that WWE and its fans are the standard for overness levels takes away from when you play other companies.

-Raise Mark Krieger's brawl to 62, stiffness to 43, overness to 13, and charisma to 73. Lower his speed to 53.

[kdcastles]

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Well said. The idea that WWE and its fans are the standard for overness levels takes away from when you play other companies.

-Raise Mark Krieger's brawl to 62, stiffness to 43, overness to 13, and charisma to 73. Lower his speed to 53.

The reason WWE fans set overness is because the majority of professional wrestling fans in North America are WWE fans. You can't discount the largest portion of wrestling fans with no justification. If someone comes out from under the Titantron and all we hear are crickets, it doesn't matter what kind of reaction they get in a high school gymnasium, they can not be better than an opener in WWE, which puts their overness between 41 and 60.

[Mancuerda]

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Couldn't agree more. There are too many guys who are only in WWE and only seen in WWE and would not be OVER in the independent scene or elsewhere. While WWE makes up the majority in terms of wrestling market share, they aren't the sole company.

We know what over equates to what card level in those promotions as well. Someone who was a main eventer in RoH or that quality should be at least 66 over; a main eventer in TNA should be at least 81 over (if national).

I still would like to really push for TNA to be 60% national and WWE to be about 80% global. I don't understand why people feel we HAVE TO put TNA as global.

[notatardis]

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Couldn't agree more. There are too many guys who are only in WWE and only seen in WWE and would not be OVER in the independent scene or elsewhere. While WWE makes up the majority in terms of wrestling market share, they aren't the sole company.

We know what over equates to what card level in those promotions as well. Someone who was a main eventer in RoH or that quality should be at least 66 over; a main eventer in TNA should be at least 81 over (if national).

I still would like to really push for TNA to be 60% national and WWE to be about 80% global. I don't understand why people feel we HAVE TO put TNA as global.

Because of the excessive overness boost issue. I laid out an alternative, but it doesn't seem to be looked at as a worthy idea.

I saw some bit about Davey earlier, I think he should be lower than 75 over, but it seems there's a whole overness discussion going on anyway.

[notatardis]

As for the definition of overness we have: Over: This is how much the crowd react to a worker. 0 means the person is totally unknown, 100 means a worker is known worldwide (such as The Rock). Generally wrestlers below 10 will be working for backyard federations, wrestlers around 60 will be working for Cult promotions, and workers over 80 will be working for Global promotions.

So, well known, is at least a large part of overness, but there's also the matter of reaction, the likes of which those lower guys don't get much with WWE, but would if returned to the FA pool.

[kdcastles]

A crowd of 200, where everyone reacts to one guy is the same overness in a crowd of 2,000 with a reaction of 200 people.

[Guest Team 720]

As for the definition of overness we have: Over: This is how much the crowd react to a worker. 0 means the person is totally unknown, 100 means a worker is known worldwide (such as The Rock). Generally wrestlers below 10 will be working for backyard federations, wrestlers around 60 will be working for Cult promotions, and workers over 80 will be working for Global promotions.

So, well known, is at least a large part of overness, but there's also the matter of reaction, the likes of which those lower guys don't get much with WWE, but would if returned to the FA pool.

That is the thing. SOME WWE guys were signed and did not even spend time in the indies or did but then left before really making a name. Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, Ezekiel Jackson, Kofi Kingston, Santino Marella, and a majority of the second generation talents are all in that boat. Now would they get the same reaction in some case YES. I think Kofi, Dolph and Cody can be dropped into an indy promotion and get a similar reaction.

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Well said. The idea that WWE and its fans are the standard for overness levels takes away from when you play other companies.

But when you play WWE you MAY or MAY NOT want to immediately go and bring the Heros, the Monxleys and Blacks up at the same time either because you feel you have too many guys on the roster already and you do not want to bring anymore guys up. The problem with ROH SIMILAR to TNA is that there is an overness boost when they would increase from cult to national. At 54, Black WOULD be an RoH UPPER midcarder for a cult-sized ROH. The problem is, RoH hits the same wall TNA does by being a high national company.

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Well said. The idea that WWE and its fans are the standard for overness levels takes away from when you play other companies.

The reason WWE fans set overness is because the majority of professional wrestling fans in North America are WWE fans. You can't discount the largest portion of wrestling fans with no justification. If someone comes out from under the Titantron and all we hear are crickets, it doesn't matter what kind of reaction they get in a high school gymnasium, they can not be better than an opener in WWE, which puts their overness between 41 and 60.

I agree. WWE and TNA run larger venues than most promotions these other wrestlers work in ROH's largest attendance was 2,000 back in the mid 2000's, TNA can fit around 5,000 in the Grand Canyon University arena for Bound for Glory this year and WWE can get up to 70,000 each year for WrestleMania and about 10,000 for RAWs, SmackDowns and PPVs. The fact is KD is right. A majority of the indy guys mean NOTHING to WWE fans because the indy promotions for ONE, do NOT HAVE TV or if they do like ROH or smaller promotions, they are only shown in certain areas on tv.

IMO The challenge of the game when playing the independents is IMO trying to get the guys over while putting on good matches and shows and also trying to make money.

I think " well known" is not the same like "Overness". (And btw NXT and Superstars are not even on TV.)

For me it is ridicioulus to see that Guys like Ezekiel Jackson has 66 in Overness while Guys like Chris Hero and Tyler Black are way below. For the most who doesn't play with WWE this makes no sense. When you Play with TNA, ROH, DGUSA and so on, WWE fires all of the Development and Undercard Guys. Black/Rollins then is a Free Agent with a Overness of 54. That's not even Midcard in ROH. At the same Time you can book The Great Khali as a Main Eventer.

So maybe it works for all the Guys who play with WWE but i don't think it is very realistic for the others

Couldn't agree more. There are too many guys who are only in WWE and only seen in WWE and would not be OVER in the independent scene or elsewhere. While WWE makes up the majority in terms of wrestling market share, they aren't the sole company.

We know what over equates to what card level in those promotions as well. Someone who was a main eventer in RoH or that quality should be at least 66 over; a main eventer in TNA should be at least 81 over (if national).

How do you know which WWE guys would and wouldn't be over? Of course a Curt Hawkins and a Zack Ryder would be over in an appearance for their hometown promotion NYWC. I think that the guys could be over and cause a spike. Would it be everyone, NO. However a good chunk of the guys on WWE TV (or Superstars) can be able to get a few more fans to each show. I am not saying that they would instantly main event say ROH, CZW, DG-USA or PWG, but they could be higher on the card and be a draw for the show.

A crowd of 200, where everyone reacts to one guy is the same overness in a crowd of 2,000 with a reaction of 200 people.

I agree that is a bit off. I mean I joke about Epico and Primo being on tv in front of millions of people with no reaction in a 10,000 seat arena BUT there is no reason someone on the indies seen by maybe 1000 people per show and maybe 10,000 more through dvd who gets a reaction should be on the same level. A TNA guy being on the same level, that is fine because while 1,000 people are live they typically react to everything and THEN about a million people see it every week.

[TSweets]

...

I agree. WWE and TNA run larger venues than most promotions these other wrestlers work in ROH's largest attendance was 2,000 back in the mid 2000's, TNA can fit around 5,000 in the Grand Canyon University arena for Bound for Glory this year and WWE can get up to 70,000 each year for WrestleMania and about 10,000 for RAWs, SmackDowns and PPVs. The fact is KD is right. A majority of the indy guys mean NOTHING to WWE fans because the indy promotions for ONE, do NOT HAVE TV or if they do like ROH or smaller promotions, they are only shown in certain areas on tv.

IMO The challenge of the game when playing the independents is IMO trying to get the guys over while putting on good matches and shows and also trying to make money.

....

For what it's worth, there was a report on wrestleview awhile back that CMLL's "Dos Leyendas '12: Mexico City" had an attendance of 11,000.

CMLL 03/02 "Dos Leyendas '12: Mexico City" Arena Mexico Results

1) Misterioso II, Namajague, & Rey Escorpion def. Fuego, Titan, & Triton

2) Averno, Mr. Aguila, & Olimpico def. Angel de Oro, Brazo de Plata, & Valiente

3) Lightning Match: Marcela def. Ayumi

4) La Mascara, Marco Corleone, & Diamante Azul def. Ultimo Guerrero, Volador Jr., & Rey Bucanero via DQ

5) National Parejas Increibles Tournament Finals: Atlantis & Mr. Niebla def. Rush & El Terrible

6) Hair vs. Hair Match: Negro Casas fought Blue Panther to a DRAW

* NOTES *

- Salvador Lutteroth (founder of CMLL/EMLL) and Bobby Bonales (legendary luchador from the 50's and the father of the only Mexican Olympic medalist in wrestling Daniel Bonales) were honored.

- Those that complain about older wrestlers like Casas & Panther being in the Main Event will not be happy to know that attendance for this show was 11,000 so until the younger guys can start drawing those types of numbers you really can't complain. Putting guys like Casas & Panther in legit feuds with guys like Sombra, Volador, Dorada, etc. might be the answer but will CMLL ever go that way?

- Panther won the first fall in the Main Event with a Fujiwara Armbar and then Negro responded in the 2nd call with a casita. Both were fairly short fall. The final fall was very long and they kept it mostly on the mat for the majority of the match. After several nearfalls both men pinned each other in the midst of a Small Package resulting in a draw. The fans chanted for a 4th fall but instead both men were shaved. Negro attacked Panther after the match to continue the feud.

Via wrestleview.com

[Guest Team 720]

...

I agree. WWE and TNA run larger venues than most promotions these other wrestlers work in ROH's largest attendance was 2,000 back in the mid 2000's, TNA can fit around 5,000 in the Grand Canyon University arena for Bound for Glory this year and WWE can get up to 70,000 each year for WrestleMania and about 10,000 for RAWs, SmackDowns and PPVs. The fact is KD is right. A majority of the indy guys mean NOTHING to WWE fans because the indy promotions for ONE, do NOT HAVE TV or if they do like ROH or smaller promotions, they are only shown in certain areas on tv.

IMO The challenge of the game when playing the independents is IMO trying to get the guys over while putting on good matches and shows and also trying to make money.

....

For what it's worth, there was a report on wrestleview awhile back that CMLL's "Dos Leyendas '12: Mexico City" had an attendance of 11,000.

CMLL 03/02 "Dos Leyendas '12: Mexico City" Arena Mexico Results

1) Misterioso II, Namajague, & Rey Escorpion def. Fuego, Titan, & Triton

2) Averno, Mr. Aguila, & Olimpico def. Angel de Oro, Brazo de Plata, & Valiente

3) Lightning Match: Marcela def. Ayumi

4) La Mascara, Marco Corleone, & Diamante Azul def. Ultimo Guerrero, Volador Jr., & Rey Bucanero via DQ

5) National Parejas Increibles Tournament Finals: Atlantis & Mr. Niebla def. Rush & El Terrible

6) Hair vs. Hair Match: Negro Casas fought Blue Panther to a DRAW

* NOTES *

- Salvador Lutteroth (founder of CMLL/EMLL) and Bobby Bonales (legendary luchador from the 50's and the father of the only Mexican Olympic medalist in wrestling Daniel Bonales) were honored.

- Those that complain about older wrestlers like Casas & Panther being in the Main Event will not be happy to know that attendance for this show was 11,000 so until the younger guys can start drawing those types of numbers you really can't complain. Putting guys like Casas & Panther in legit feuds with guys like Sombra, Volador, Dorada, etc. might be the answer but will CMLL ever go that way?

- Panther won the first fall in the Main Event with a Fujiwara Armbar and then Negro responded in the 2nd call with a casita. Both were fairly short fall. The final fall was very long and they kept it mostly on the mat for the majority of the match. After several nearfalls both men pinned each other in the midst of a Small Package resulting in a draw. The fans chanted for a 4th fall but instead both men were shaved. Negro attacked Panther after the match to continue the feud.

Via wrestleview.com

I was not mentioning Mexico though that is true. The problem is Mexico has had slumping attendance as well in the past years as well. Mexico is very different as the two big promotions are indeed national as oppose to RoH who is borderline national and TNA who is borderline international.

[MaSc]

A crowd of 200, where everyone reacts to one guy is the same overness in a crowd of 2,000 with a reaction of 200 people.

Agree! But do you think Guys like Jackson, JTG & Ryan would be cheered or booed by the entire Audience at DGUSA? :lmao:No? So why has Jackson a 66 in Overness?

Most of the guys who got fired from WWE the last Years get no contract with a notable promotion. Look at Kevin Thorn, Manu, Cliff Compton, Eric Escobar, Slam Master J, Luke Gallows, Mike Knox, Paul Burchill Michael Tarver...not even Chris Masters & DH Smith are Big in the Indies. And i bet it would be the same with the most of the Guys in the WWE Undercard.

And it was said most of the Indy Stars are not on TV. Again...Agree. But a lot of the WWE Undercarder are also not at RAW or SmackDown (If they were, then they are used as Jobbers and that's it).. They are at Superstars & NXT. And Superstars and NXT are also not on TV. So why has Chris Hero a 53 and JTG a 62 in Overness? Both are not at national TV! And the WWE Audience don't care about JTG like they don't about Ohno. But Ohno, or should i say Hero, would be a Main Eventer in ROH....But JTG? No way! I bet JTG would not even get a contract.

I don't say there is no Problem with the Stats in the Game but i think that's not the perfect solution. Maybe like notarardis mentioned it: Lower the most Workers and ALL the Promotions! (including the WWE and TNA Under Carder)

The reason WWE fans set overness is because the majority of professional wrestling fans in North America are WWE fans. You can't discount the largest portion of wrestling fans with no justification. If someone comes out from under the Titantron and all we hear are crickets, it doesn't matter what kind of reaction they get in a high school gymnasium, they can not be better than an opener in WWE, which puts their overness between 41 and 60.

Then you should lower the Overness of all Undercarders and Divas. The most of them get also no reactions.

Edited July 20, 2012 by MaSc

[Darnez FC Forever]

I think most of you are forgetting that, unlike TEW, EWR has ONE number which measures how over someone is in the game. Which means that the biggest promotion in the game is going to be a greater measuring stick in determining how over someone is in comparison to smaller companies.

I think people are also forgetting that Indy companies tend to have the same fans attending most of the shows, so of course most of the wrestlers are going to get good reactions - they wrestle in front of similar crowds at any given event. For example, I worked as a cameraman for a local wrestling event last weekend and we pulled a crowd of around 100 people. One of our faces got a HUGE reaction from the crowd - but that doesn't mean he should have a high overness level just because 100 people know who he is and react to him - because I guarantee if you swapped out that crowd for 100 different people his reaction would've been a lot less. If you did the same experiment with The Rock, for example, he would get a huge reaction regardless because he is The Rock and lots of wrestling fans know who he is. And I bet if you did the same experiment again a WWE midcarder would get a bigger reaction than a El Generico or Sami Callihan because more wrestling fans would know who the midcarder is and thus there's more of a chance he'll get a reaction in comparison to the indy wrestlers.

If you want a more "accurate" way of measuring overness you should play TEW instead.

[Mancuerda]

That's no excuse to do over in a way that doesn't work in the game, though. If someone was a main eventer in RoH or capable of being one, they should at least have an over that allows them to be.

As mentioned in MaSc's wonderful post, the midcarders in question in WWE who people claim are more over simply by being on WWE TV... aren't actually on WWE TV! A lot are just used on the non-TV shows - Superstars, NXT, or jobbers in dark matches or squashed by Ryback. It's not like they're getting a lot of TV time. Only the main eventers and upper card guys get TV time in WWE anymore, and occasionally a new midcard act like Sandow will get some shine. The rest are only used in squash matches against Brodus Clay or when Big Show needs to knock someone out.

[Guest Team 720]

A crowd of 200, where everyone reacts to one guy is the same overness in a crowd of 2,000 with a reaction of 200 people.

Agree! But do you think Guys like Jackson, JTG & Ryan would be cheered or booed by the entire Audience at DGUSA? :lmao:No? So why has Jackson a 66 in Overness?

Most of the guys who got fired from WWE the last Years get no contract with a notable promotion. Look at Kevin Thorn, Manu, Cliff Compton, Eric Escobar, Slam Master J, Luke Gallows, Mike Knox, Paul Burchill Michael Tarver...not even Chris Masters & DH Smith are Big in the Indies. And i bet it would be the same with the most of the Guys in the WWE Undercard.

And it was said most of the Indy Stars are not on TV. Again...Agree. But a lot of the WWE Undercarder are also not at RAW or SmackDown (If they were, then they are used as Jobbers and that's it).. They are at Superstars & NXT. And Superstars and NXT are also not on TV. So why has Chris Hero a 53 and JTG a 62 in Overness? Both are not at national TV! And the WWE Audience don't care about JTG like they don't about Ohno. But Ohno, or should i say Hero, would be a Main Eventer in ROH....But JTG? No way! I bet JTG would not even get a contract.

Talk about a fountain of miss information. I agree JTG should get lowered overness because he is no where as over as he was after the Cryme Tyme split. I say 58 on level Curt Hawkins and Tyler Reks. There are A LOT of WWE talents who are not allowed on RAW/SmackDown due to how loaded the roster is now. Antonio Cesaro was and then he has been taken off and he was one of those not getting reactions. I would put him at 57. However the rest of this post is speculative if not total BS.

First off, How do you know who exactly would and who wouldn't get a contract to be a part of ROH or who would or would not goto DG-USA. Maybe they got offers but they did not want to work for them. Ever think of that. We can only assume that Gargano would return to DG-USA IF he gets released, Hero and Claudio would likely go back to ROH and if NOT main event off the bat, Sara Del Ray would goto SHIMMER and SHINE, who knows what Tyler Black would do because he left ROH before the Sinclair era even started.

As for the guys you mentioned:

DH Smith has gone back to Canada and has worked every single Resistance Pro show in the main event for Billy Corgan since its debut in November of 2011 so I would exclude him.

Slam Master J or Ray Gordy retired after his dreams of being a wrestler in WWE were crushed so exclude him from your list.

Eric Escobar returned to Puerto Rico so he should not be included in your list.

Luke Gallows has done a LOT of tours in Africa and worked in India for Ring Ka King so he is not really home in the US enough to really do indy dates.

Paul Burchill is married and was preparing for a career after wrestling WHILE under his WWE contract should not be in the list.

Mike Knox retired so he should not be included.

Kevin Thorn still works the indies as Seven Thorn and even wrestled a TNA dark match but not in a top role.

Michael Tarver still does indies but not in a top role.

Cliff Compton has made a name for himself in OVW and through Colt's Art of Wrestling so he could be not included.

Manu returned to WXW C4 as Afa Jr but for the most part does not work anywhere else.

Chris Masters to my knowledge only did Ring Ka King in India.

Out of all the names, I would give you 4 possibly 5 that truly work for what you originally said.

I don't say there is no Problem with the Stats in the Game but i think that's not the perfect solution. Maybe like notarardis mentioned it: Lower the most Workers and ALL the Promotions! (including the WWE and TNA Under Carder)

I think that is fair, the only problem is the dump that will happen across the board. The only problem is EVERYONE WILL STILL NOT BE SATISFIED! KrisClassic will complain because the people he marks for in CZW are not over enough even though they have 1,000 fans tops and I will complain because guys on the indies will still be over-valued if I try to bring them into WWE or even TNA. The only cure all is this suggestion from Darenz:

If you want a more "accurate" way of measuring overness you should play TEW instead.

The reason WWE fans set overness is because the majority of professional wrestling fans in North America are WWE fans. You can't discount the largest portion of wrestling fans with no justification. If someone comes out from under the Titantron and all we hear are crickets, it doesn't matter what kind of reaction they get in a high school gymnasium, they can not be better than an opener in WWE, which puts their overness between 41 and 60.

Then you should lower the Overness of all Undercarders and Divas. The most of them get also no reactions.

Not all the divas had bad pops. Layla, Beth, Eve and Natayla had some from their appearances at Money in the Bank. I was there. Granted Layla was accurate in the game but they still were in the 70's like they were in the game already.

I think most of you are forgetting that, unlike TEW, EWR has ONE number which measures how over someone is in the game. Which means that the biggest promotion in the game is going to be a greater measuring stick in determining how over someone is in comparison to smaller companies.

I think people are also forgetting that Indy companies tend to have the same fans attending most of the shows, so of course most of the wrestlers are going to get good reactions - they wrestle in front of similar crowds at any given event. For example, I worked as a cameraman for a local wrestling event last weekend and we pulled a crowd of around 100 people. One of our faces got a HUGE reaction from the crowd - but that doesn't mean he should have a high overness level just because 100 people know who he is and react to him - because I guarantee if you swapped out that crowd for 100 different people his reaction would've been a lot less. If you did the same experiment with The Rock, for example, he would get a huge reaction regardless because he is The Rock and lots of wrestling fans know who he is. And I bet if you did the same experiment again a WWE midcarder would get a bigger reaction than a El Generico or Sami Callihan because more wrestling fans would know who the midcarder is and thus there's more of a chance he'll get a reaction in comparison to the indy wrestlers.

I think this is a very accurate statement. A lot of WWE guys and to a lesser extent TNA guys would be more known than Generico or Callihan. If you don't believe it, you need to have your head examined.

That's no excuse to do over in a way that doesn't work in the game, though. If someone was a main eventer in RoH or capable of being one, they should at least have an over that allows them to be.

And guys in RoH are no way higher than 75 in overness at this point so that wouldn't work realistically either.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Team 720

[notatardis]

It's nice we talk about what they WOULD be IF they were in another promotion, but we're dealing with what is, and that's where they are in the WWE. No matter what, they are in the E and have a set role, for most, if not all these guys.

I still think a bulldozer of sorts is needed if you want accuracy. Drop TNA, drop ROH, drop the overness by the amount of points they gain when they jump a promotion size, and those midcard WWE numbers are accurate main event numbers for the indies.

Edited July 20, 2012 by notatardis