EWR 2012 Stats Update: July ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[MaSc]

As for the guys you mentioned:

DH Smith has gone back to Canada and has worked every single Resistance Pro show in the main event for Billy Corgan since its debut in November of 2011 so I would exclude him.

Slam Master J or Ray Gordy retired after his dreams of being a wrestler in WWE were crushed so exclude him from your list.

Eric Escobar returned to Puerto Rico so he should not be included in your list.

Luke Gallows has done a LOT of tours in Africa and worked in India for Ring Ka King so he is not really home in the US enough to really do indy dates.

Paul Burchill is married and was preparing for a career after wrestling WHILE under his WWE contract should not be in the list.

Mike Knox retired so he should not be included.

Kevin Thorn still works the indies as Seven Thorn and even wrestled a TNA dark match but not in a top role.

Michael Tarver still does indies but not in a top role.

Cliff Compton has made a name for himself in OVW and through Colt's Art of Wrestling so he could be not included.

Manu returned to WXW C4 as Afa Jr but for the most part does not work anywhere else.

Chris Masters to my knowledge only did Ring Ka King in India.

Out of all the names, I would give you 4 possibly 5 that truly work for what you originally said.

And which of these Guys have a regulare Role in the Big Indy Promotions? They work rarly as Special Attractions or for small Companys. All these Names include in these list because none of these guys has a big name in the business outside of WWE. No one of these guys get it to ROH, DGUSA, PWG, Chikara or CZW.So why do you think it would be different with today's WWE Undercarders? Give me a handful of former WWE workers (last 1-6 Years) who have a great name in the Indys with the exception of Legends (Finlay, Lance Storm, Tommy Dreamer) and former Indy Stars (Low-Ki, Colt Cabana). The biggest Names maybe are Mike Mondo and Kenn Doane. The question is why these guys are retired or work only for relatively small Companys. Most certainly not because they have rejected offers from larger Indy promotions. Why no larger promotion booked these guys?

Edited July 20, 2012 by MaSc

[Bill1996]

Just a quick note...

This post signifies the cutoff point for the ladder discussion for the Brawl, Speed, Tech and Charisma ladders...

So basically, what that means is, for those 4 categories (Brawwl, Speed, Tech and Charisma) any suggestion made after this post might not be taken into account when figuring out stats.

Feel free to continue to discuss these areas, but know that if the worker(s) you are suggesting changes for in those areas were part of the ladder discussion, chances are that those suggestions won't be taken into account...

If you're suggesting stats for a worker that wasn't on the ladder, post away...

We'll continue the Overness ladder discussion until Midnight EST on July 25th. That leaves for 5 more days of discussion and gives me 6 days to take all of the suggestions and adjust the overnesses that need adjusting.

-Bill

[Guest Team 720]

As for the guys you mentioned:

DH Smith has gone back to Canada and has worked every single Resistance Pro show in the main event for Billy Corgan since its debut in November of 2011 so I would exclude him.

Slam Master J or Ray Gordy retired after his dreams of being a wrestler in WWE were crushed so exclude him from your list.

Eric Escobar returned to Puerto Rico so he should not be included in your list.

Luke Gallows has done a LOT of tours in Africa and worked in India for Ring Ka King so he is not really home in the US enough to really do indy dates.

Paul Burchill is married and was preparing for a career after wrestling WHILE under his WWE contract should not be in the list.

Mike Knox retired so he should not be included.

Kevin Thorn still works the indies as Seven Thorn and even wrestled a TNA dark match but not in a top role.

Michael Tarver still does indies but not in a top role.

Cliff Compton has made a name for himself in OVW and through Colt's Art of Wrestling so he could be not included.

Manu returned to WXW C4 as Afa Jr but for the most part does not work anywhere else.

Chris Masters to my knowledge only did Ring Ka King in India.

Out of all the names, I would give you 4 possibly 5 that truly work for what you originally said.

And which of these Guys have a regulare Role in the Big Indy Promotions? They work rarly as Special Attractions or for small Companys. All these Names include in these list because none of these guys has a big name in the business outside of WWE. No one of these guys get it to ROH, DGUSA, PWG, Chikara or CZW.So why do you think it would be different with today's WWE Undercarders? Give me a handful of former WWE workers (last 1-6 Years) who have a great name in the Indys with the exception of Legends (Finlay, Lance Storm, Tommy Dreamer) and former Indy Stars (Low-Ki, Colt Cabana). The biggest Names maybe are Mike Mondo and Kenn Doane. The question is why these guys are retired or work only for relatively small Companys. Most certainly not because they have rejected offers from larger Indy promotions. Why no larger promotion booked these guys?

Short answer only promoters, the wrestlers themselves, family and friends REALLY know. I really don't think it is exactly fair to the make the blanket statement that wrestler X does not work indies, they are not in demand and their overness should be lower. Maybe the promoters think they can get the wrestlers on the cheap and the wrestler is not willing to take the pay cut, some promotions only have a limited amount of outsiders and mostly use people trained through their wrestling school (CHIKARA is notorious for doing this), they retire due to injuries or personal issues (think Monty Brown), maybe the promoters don't use booking agents which is fairly common for former WWE (and less common for former TNA stars) or in other cases, wrestlers have their prices set and will not lower them for promoters. Some did not REALLY want to be stars and decided to leave the business. Nick Mitchell comes to mind as one of a few men in that case as this happens more so with divas than wrestlers. Other times, they may get more to tour in Japan or elsewhere over seas (think MVP, Low Ki, Gallows, Morrison.)

Edited July 20, 2012 by Team 720

[Bill1996]

I still think a bulldozer of sorts is needed if you want accuracy. Drop TNA, drop ROH, drop the overness by the amount of points they gain when they jump a promotion size, and those midcard WWE numbers are accurate main event numbers for the indies.

TNA programming is broadcast in more than 120 countries all over the world reaching a global audience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Nonstop_Action_Wrestling

I think that's sufficient evidence to prove that TNA is a Global promotion... By comparison, WWE broadcasts in 145 countries. That's only a difference of 25.

Besides the overness boost, ROH is a National Promotion in order to separate them some from the other Cult promotions... They currently air shows in Japan and have aired in the UK and Ireland in the past. They have also held shows in Japan and the UK. Add in CM Punk's mention of them in his now infamous "shoot" and their involvement in the movie "The Wrestler" and I think that they qualify to be a National Promotion.

Quite honestly, I think a good portion of the promotions that are Global, National and Cult are slotted pretty nicely. There are a couple Regional Promotions that I feel should probably be Small promotions and one Regional promotion that should really start getting some consideration for being bumped up to Cult, but I'll leave that discussion for another time...

I've looked at the discussions regarding which workers deserve which stats but it's kind of funny that, when all of the opinions are logged side-to-side, a large portion of the stats discussed, there's not that much difference in opinion. I'd say in about 90% of the discussion, there's less than a 5 point difference of opinions in about 90% of the stats and less than a 10 point difference in 98% of them.

So, really, a good part of the debate and discussion has only been over a few points here and there. Granted, there are a couple that are all over the place (like Undertaker's Brawl) but that's where we'll just average the opinions.

-Bill

Edited July 20, 2012 by Bill1996

[Skummy]

The "Ezekiel Jackson wouldn't get a good reaction in Dragon Gate, therefore shouldn't have 66 over" argument is ridiculous. Dragon Gate, as with most notable indies, has a "house style" that is drastically different from the product presented by WWE.

However, the vast majority of independent wrestling shows going on in any given town aren't by the likes of DGUSA, ROH or CHIKARA. If you put on a wrestling show in Bumfuck, Michigan, chances are you'll draw a bigger crowd with Greg Valentine vs. Jim Neidhart than you would with Sami Callihan vs. El Generico or whatever. The indie shows that the internet bothers reporting on, and that get released on DVD, are the exception to the rule.

The vast majority of independent wrestling shows feature ex-WWF guys against aging local talent, because that's what draws in most towns, better than Guy Who Has Never Been On TV vs. Guy Who Jobbed To Ryback Last Week. A WWE midcarder having higher overness than Indie Wrestler Du Jour is perfectly accurate.

[kdcastles]

A crowd of 200, where everyone reacts to one guy is the same overness in a crowd of 2,000 with a reaction of 200 people.

Agree! But do you think Guys like Jackson, JTG & Ryan would be cheered or booed by the entire Audience at DGUSA? :lmao:No? So why has Jackson a 66 in Overness?

Most of the guys who got fired from WWE the last Years get no contract with a notable promotion. Look at Kevin Thorn, Manu, Cliff Compton, Eric Escobar, Slam Master J, Luke Gallows, Mike Knox, Paul Burchill Michael Tarver...not even Chris Masters & DH Smith are Big in the Indies. And i bet it would be the same with the most of the Guys in the WWE Undercard.

And it was said most of the Indy Stars are not on TV. Again...Agree. But a lot of the WWE Undercarder are also not at RAW or SmackDown (If they were, then they are used as Jobbers and that's it).. They are at Superstars & NXT. And Superstars and NXT are also not on TV. So why has Chris Hero a 53 and JTG a 62 in Overness? Both are not at national TV! And the WWE Audience don't care about JTG like they don't about Ohno. But Ohno, or should i say Hero, would be a Main Eventer in ROH....But JTG? No way! I bet JTG would not even get a contract.

I don't say there is no Problem with the Stats in the Game but i think that's not the perfect solution. Maybe like notarardis mentioned it: Lower the most Workers and ALL the Promotions! (including the WWE and TNA Under Carder)

The reason WWE fans set overness is because the majority of professional wrestling fans in North America are WWE fans. You can't discount the largest portion of wrestling fans with no justification. If someone comes out from under the Titantron and all we hear are crickets, it doesn't matter what kind of reaction they get in a high school gymnasium, they can not be better than an opener in WWE, which puts their overness between 41 and 60.

Then you should lower the Overness of all Undercarders and Divas. The most of them get also no reactions.

Here's the deal. I do think they would get a reaction in DG, or ROH or CZW or so on and so forth. Why? Because on the whole, indy fans also watch WWE. Most wrestling fans found WWE before any indy fed, and so the E is their first love. So they would know the guys you mentioned and probably boo them, but they would react. Indy fans are wrestling fans, they can't help themselves, if wrestling is on TV then they will be tuned in. The difference is, WWE fans are not indy fans. They watch WWE and don't care about the small indy feds.

[Mancuerda]

I agree with Team720 that over of 75 is really high for RoH guys. I don't think anyone besides possibly Rhino should have that high of over. That said, 66 is the minimum for a main eventer in a cult promotion which I feel RoH still is. Their belt's prestige is 72 (a little too high imo, I'd lower it to 69). So guys who are main eventing Ring of Honor (Which is also on national television now thanks to the Sinclair Broadcasting deal) should be 66-70 or so.

I know Bill uses the global television deal as evidence that TNA is global and the national TV deal to support RoH being national, but you have to think about how many people they're reaching and what the ratings are and the fact that there's a huge difference in national syndication and a weekly episodic national TV show that's live and airs in a consistent time slot every week on a major cable channel.

ECW wasn't "national" when it had Hardcore TV, which was syndicated similarly to how RoH is now. They probably didn't go national until late 1998, near when they got the TNN deal.

I love TNA... I've been a supporter of theirs since I first watched some X-Division matches in 2002 or 2003. That said, they get 1/3rd the television rating of WWE Raw, their largest crowds outside the iMPACT! Zone get 1/4th or 1/5th the attendance WWE gets for major PPVs and about 1/10th that of Mania, and their exposure is a lot smaller and their international TV deals have existed for a lot shorter time period. They aren't in WWE's league yet when it comes to their status in the wrestling world.

[KrisClassic]

It has nothing to do with what I "mark" for, it's about how the fans react to them. Game mechanics say if X person is getting a main event response and in a main event position, they should have Y overness. It's simple as.

[Bill1996]

I agree with Team720 that over of 75 is really high for RoH guys. I don't think anyone besides possibly Rhino should have that high of over. That said, 66 is the minimum for a main eventer in a cult promotion which I feel RoH still is. Their belt's prestige is 72 (a little too high imo, I'd lower it to 69). So guys who are main eventing Ring of Honor (Which is also on national television now thanks to the Sinclair Broadcasting deal) should be 66-70 or so.

I know Bill uses the global television deal as evidence that TNA is global and the national TV deal to support RoH being national, but you have to think about how many people they're reaching and what the ratings are and the fact that there's a huge difference in national syndication and a weekly episodic national TV show that's live and airs in a consistent time slot every week on a major cable channel.

ECW wasn't "national" when it had Hardcore TV, which was syndicated similarly to how RoH is now. They probably didn't go national until late 1998, near when they got the TNN deal.

I love TNA... I've been a supporter of theirs since I first watched some X-Division matches in 2002 or 2003. That said, they get 1/3rd the television rating of WWE Raw, their largest crowds outside the iMPACT! Zone get 1/4th or 1/5th the attendance WWE gets for major PPVs and about 1/10th that of Mania, and their exposure is a lot smaller and their international TV deals have existed for a lot shorter time period. They aren't in WWE's league yet when it comes to their status in the wrestling world.

If you held a gun to my head and said I had to drop either TNA to National or ROH to Cult, I'd most likley choose dropping ROH to Cult. Even though I personally don't watch TNA too often (I've maybe watched 2 1/2 TNA shows all year) I do feel hat they have done enough to warrant a Global ranking. As stated before, they broadcast in over 120 countries. IMO, whether or not the broadcasts are live or not, the fact is the programming is still available. From what I understand, RAW is actually on tape delay in some parts of Canada and some Mexican stations don't air Smackdown or RAW until Saturday. Add in the Ring Ka King and their tie ins with AAA and IWGP and again, I think they've done enough to warrant a Global ranking. I'm not sure of the actual numbers, but it's quite possible with the whole Ring Ka King thing that TNA actually promotes more shows outside of North America than WWE does.

That's not saying TNA is close to challenging WWE... But, keep in mind, TNA only has a 10 image in Global currently. That's the same ranking they'd get when promoted from a National level, which happens pretty quickly in the game anyway. It's not like we're starting TNA at 50 Global or anything.

As for ROH, again, IMO, they should have something that separates them from the rest of the Cult promotions, because they are clearly the #3 promotion in the USA. They're currently at 8 image Nationally, which is actually lower than they'd get if you started them out in Cult and were promoted to National. Like TNA, that promotion happens rather quickly, so why not just boost them slightly and avoid the overness boost that thay'd get?

Regarding the overness boost: To be honest, I'm not sure what the boost for workers is when you go from Cult to National, or National to Global. My guess would be it would be enough to put each worker on the roster in their correct card position. That means (if I'm correct) that it's not just a boost of X amount for every worker, but a different boost for each worker, pending on what they need to be entrenched in their card position at the next level. Admittedly, if we were sure of what the boost was, we could do as others have suggested and simply compensate for the boost and reduce overnesses. The problem is, if it's not a set number boost for each worker, that could get very tricky.

Keep in mind, the reason these promotions were bumped up in the first place was because people were bitching about the overness boost. Now, people seem to be bitching the other way... My guess is, you're not going to please everyone...

As I said in an earlier post, I have a few suggestions on promotions that should be changed from where they currently are, but I'm going to hold off until next month, because I have plenty on my plate, update-wise already. But, the majority of my thoughts involve Regional promotions. Most of the Cult, National and Global promotions, I think aren't too bad. Could there be tweaks made on those levels? Probably, but not anything major, at least IMO.

-Bill

Edited July 20, 2012 by Bill1996

[notatardis]

when I get a chance I'll check on the boosts, but IIRC it's a flat 5 or 10 upgrade I think. Someone may already know.

[notatardis]

Although, it could be argued that ROH's TV deal and being the clear cut number 3, at least heard of by most casual fans sets them apart, but they're as close to National as they are to Cult I think anyway.

[Guest Team 720]

It has nothing to do with what I "mark" for, it's about how the fans react to them. Game mechanics say if X person is getting a main event response and in a main event position, they should have Y overness. It's simple as.

The problem is that they would still need a drop when they goto WWE or TNA to be realistic.

[notatardis]

I'm seeing a boost of 3-6 all over. It's not uniform, but a deviation of only 3 should be easy enough to control for.

Edited July 20, 2012 by notatardis

[Bill1996]

I'm seeing a boost of 3-6 all over. It's not uniform, but a deviation of only 3 should be easy enough to control for.

Heh, you'd think that, wouldn't you?

The problem is, like I said last night... A good majority of the stats discussions that have gone on in this thread are ultimately over less than 5 points...

-Bill

[notatardis]

Heh, touche. The only thing currently I could say is apply a uniform 6 across the board, but that all depends on if people would be okay with that.

[conker8]

Now, IMO Great Khali and Jack Swagger are more Midcarders.

[KrisClassic]

-After New Jack's rant on Tammy Sytch, change their relationship from dislike to hate. Change his relationship with Missy Hyatt to a dislike.

-Raise Shockwave the Robot's brawl to 41, speed to 70, technical to 63, selling to 64, and charisma to 82. Tick Speaks to yes.

-Raise Osamu Namiguchi's brawl to 48, overness to 19, and charisma to 51.

-Raise Damien Sandow's brawl to 75.

-Raise Road Warrior Animal's speed to 9.

Edited July 21, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Mancuerda]

I honestly don't know the best way to handle the 3-6 point overness boost the promotion gives to its workers once it moves up a level. I just think it's weird that you have TNA as a global promotion when virtually none of its main eventers (real ones, not the guys like Hardy, Kurt, Sting, Hogan, or RVD... but the world title contenders like Roode, Aries, Storm, AJ, Joe, etc.) are over enough to support that. While, yes, they do broadcast internationally and have a prime time TV show, they aren't exactly housing global talent. I don't think the promotion is bigger than its stars, considering guys like Christian and Matt Morgan have left TNA because they wanted to be bigger stars in WWE.

The same goes for RoH... they have a late night syndicated TV show and none of their superstars are over enough to even be a main eventer in a national promotion. So I don't see how they're national. I hate arguing with you, Bill, but I'm just trying to lay it out to express my view point. This will probably be the last time, though, as I know how annoying it can be to sift through repeated points and thoughts... but I tried to lay it out as plainly as possible.

[Guest Team 720]

I honestly don't know the best way to handle the 3-6 point overness boost the promotion gives to its workers once it moves up a level. I just think it's weird that you have TNA as a global promotion when virtually none of its main eventers (real ones, not the guys like Hardy, Kurt, Sting, Hogan, or RVD... but the world title contenders like Roode, Aries, Storm, AJ, Joe, etc.) are over enough to support that. While, yes, they do broadcast internationally and have a prime time TV show, they aren't exactly housing global talent. I don't think the promotion is bigger than its stars, considering guys like Christian and Matt Morgan have left TNA because they wanted to be bigger stars in WWE.

The same goes for RoH... they have a late night syndicated TV show and none of their superstars are over enough to even be a main eventer in a national promotion. So I don't see how they're national. I hate arguing with you, Bill, but I'm just trying to lay it out to express my view point. This will probably be the last time, though, as I know how annoying it can be to sift through repeated points and thoughts... but I tried to lay it out as plainly as possible.

Has TNA ran shows in Mexico, no. TNA has sent guys to Mexico off and on since 2004. Has TNA done full blown shows in Canada? Plus TNA rarely runs in the western USA and sticks to the south and maybe the north east. Not sure. DGUSA and ROH have done shows in Canada as well though I would NOT see them anymore than cult.

ROH does NOT have a national tv deal. They only show the shows on the MyNetworks, CWs and Fox local stations that they own similar to Scripts owning ABC 15 in Phoenix and Gannett owning NBC 12 in Phoenix. There are A LOT of ground in the US ROH does not run. I don't remember many west coast shows.

IMO CZW, PWG and PWS should be regional promotions. They rarely run out of the general area they promote in.

[notatardis]

I honestly don't know the best way to handle the 3-6 point overness boost the promotion gives to its workers once it moves up a level. I just think it's weird that you have TNA as a global promotion when virtually none of its main eventers (real ones, not the guys like Hardy, Kurt, Sting, Hogan, or RVD... but the world title contenders like Roode, Aries, Storm, AJ, Joe, etc.) are over enough to support that. While, yes, they do broadcast internationally and have a prime time TV show, they aren't exactly housing global talent. I don't think the promotion is bigger than its stars, considering guys like Christian and Matt Morgan have left TNA because they wanted to be bigger stars in WWE.

The same goes for RoH... they have a late night syndicated TV show and none of their superstars are over enough to even be a main eventer in a national promotion. So I don't see how they're national. I hate arguing with you, Bill, but I'm just trying to lay it out to express my view point. This will probably be the last time, though, as I know how annoying it can be to sift through repeated points and thoughts... but I tried to lay it out as plainly as possible.

I think there's some point to the placement argument, but at the same time, those guys were previously in the main event scene and they've since been moved out to bring up the new guys in TNA so I dunno how well that related to the TNA argument.