Clubs could be banned over racism

[therockbox]

Uefa has warned it could exclude clubs from their competitions if their fans are found guilty of racist behaviour.

Several Spanish clubs have been fined this season, with Deportivo La Coruna the latest after Real Madrid's Roberto Carlos was racially abused last week.

"There is no limit to the actions that we will take," said Uefa spokesman William Gaillard.

"We are ready to exclude a team from our Uefa run competitions if we have repeat offenders."

Albacete, Getafe, Malaga and Atletico Madrid have also been fined by the Spanish FA (RFEF), while Real Madrid and Sevilla have been punished by Uefa for incidents at Champions League and Uefa Cup games.

Spain coach Luis Aragones was also fined £2,060 for racist remarks made about France striker Thierry Henry, while England's friendly in Madrid last year was marred by abuse.

And Gaillard is adamant that European football's governing body is ready to step up the fight against racism in football.

The Spanish FA is gradually becoming aware that there is a problem

Uefa spokesman William Gaillard

"We have to tell people that it is not acceptable and will not be tolerated - end of story," added Gaillard.

"In some cases it is fine to use the carrot but if the stick is not behind it the carrot is not enough."

Gaillard is confident that Spain is slowly coming to terms with the problem of racism within football in their country.

"I think the Spanish FA is gradually becoming aware that there is a problem and it has to be tackled seriously," he said.

"I think there was probably a consciousness gap. I think football has been targeted by small extremist groups in Spain and some organisational measures are needed.

"Clubs have realised they are going to be penalised - not only will they be fined but they could lose points or their grounds could be banned.

"That is the cost they are going to have to bear for the behaviour of a small minority which with a little bit of courage they could isolate and get rid of quite easily."

[lanky316]

They only really react to violence after all, though oviosuly bad, racist chanting isn't a huge problem you can still play and if you focus on your game will barely notice it. Whereas when your fans consistently cause violent trouble everywhere they go it is only fair they are banned alá Liverpool.

As long as it doesn't turn into violent racist incidents like the rather tasteless one in Dream Team recently then a fine is only suffice. Especially with the financial hardship everyone is falling in to.

[therockbox]

They only really react to violence after all, though oviosuly bad, racist chanting isn't a huge problem you can still play and if you focus on your game will barely notice it.  Whereas when your fans consistently cause violent trouble everywhere they go it is only fair they are banned alá Liverpool.

As long as it doesn't turn into violent racist incidents like the rather tasteless one in Dream Team recently then a fine is only suffice.  Especially with the financial hardship everyone is falling in to.

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[britneyspearsisgod]

Whereas when your fans consistently cause violent trouble everywhere they go it is only fair they are banned alá Liverpool.

[lanky316]

Also, please backup your point about Liverpool fans 'causing trouble everywhere they go'.  Go on, please.  I need a good laugh.

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[therockbox]

Also, please backup your point about Liverpool fans 'causing trouble everywhere they go'.  Go on, please.  I need a good laugh.

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I would mention the multiple occasions througout the '70's and 80's which actually got British clubs banned and perhaps even show you the hole in my back from where I was stabbed because Spurs had the cheek to beat them but I really don't think you would understand...

and Britney, I never said it was right I just said it isn't THAT bad, yes it does need to be stamped out but can you really see people in clubs standing for it. You have FIFA saying they would have defended Englands right to walk off against Spain, yet can you imagine what would've happened then, legally speaking that would be bringing the game into disrepute and we would have inspired a riot and probably been kicked out for it.

The few shouldn't spoil it for the many and I think trying to ban clubs from competitions on a large scale because of this will make matters worse in the long run then actually solving them. An easier suggestion would be get cameras to track downb the people instigating this, it is easily done in most grounds all over the world and ban them for life. Far more effective then taking it out on a club.

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[britneyspearsisgod]

I would mention the multiple occasions througout the '70's and 80's which actually got British clubs banned and perhaps even show you the hole in my back from where I was stabbed because Spurs had the cheek to beat them but I really don't think you would understand...

[lanky316]

The 70's and 80's were ages ago, and football has changed a lot since then.  Oh, and you're a liar.

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[lanky316]

I would mention the multiple occasions througout the '70's and 80's which actually got British clubs banned and perhaps even show you the hole in my back from where I was stabbed because Spurs had the cheek to beat them but I really don't think you would understand...

That's the same for many fans though, not just Liverpool. And as for getting beat? I'm a Bristol Rovers fan - I'm more than use to getting our arses handed to us.

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[britneyspearsisgod]

I kniow it's not just Liverpool but it WAS Liverpool who got us banned from European club football that was the point I was trying to make.

[therockbox]

The 70's and 80's were ages ago, and football has changed a lot since then.  Oh, and you're a liar.

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How the fuck would you know? Once you've stood in the away end at Old Trafford in the early nineties and been pissed on by the home fans then you can pretend you know what your talking about. When you've had to be locked in at Elland Road because your bus back to WHL is being smashed up, then you can pretend you know what you are talking about. When you have had to suffer "the hissing of the gas chambers" at West Ham every time you've played them since before I can remember then you can pretend you know what your talking about.

Not all of us are little boys who have barely even left our little towns, not all of us sit around getting our football from Sky Sports, some of us have travelled the country, nay, world to watch football and follow our clubs for years. Once you realise that then I'll start to listen to you.

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Edited March 4, 2005 by The Rock Box

[hugobomb]

Dude what the fuck? What the fuck has he done to deserve this dismissive behaivour from you Rock Box?

[therockbox]

- Saying that Liverpool fans caused English teams to be banned from Europe, and that they cause trouble everywhere they go.

- Pretty much saying that footballers should ignore racism in any form, no matter how serious, and concentrate on the game.

- His patronizing and quite frankly insulting attitude towards me in his post about 'not all of us are little boys who have barely left our little towns.'

[Liam]

- Saying that Liverpool fans caused English teams to be banned from Europe, and that they cause trouble everywhere they go.

- Pretty much saying that footballers should ignore racism in any form, no matter how serious, and concentrate on the game.

- His patronizing and quite frankly insulting attitude towards me in his post about 'not all of us are little boys who have barely left our little towns.'

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I dunno about the top one, so can't really comment.

However, I believe that footballers should ignore the racism, and get on with the game. Its for the footballing governing bodies to deal with it at the end of the day, and nothing will be solved by walking off the pitch, or not playing the game. Surely, if you do that, then you are letting the racists win?

And he was patronizing after you called him a liar....I like you, but thats a big "pot...kettle...black" point. Also, saying what you did about the knife is just nasty IMO, but whatever.

[therockbox]

- Saying that Liverpool fans caused English teams to be banned from Europe, and that they cause trouble everywhere they go.

- Pretty much saying that footballers should ignore racism in any form, no matter how serious, and concentrate on the game.

- His patronizing and quite frankly insulting attitude towards me in his post about 'not all of us are little boys who have barely left our little towns.'

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However, I believe that footballers should ignore the racism, and get on with the game. Its for the footballing governing bodies to deal with it at the end of the day, and nothing will be solved by walking off the pitch, or not playing the game. Surely, if you do that, then you are letting the racists win?

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[Liam]

I still can't believe that Aragones wasn't sacked...I agree that Governing bodies need to do more, and then, and only then I guess, can footballers just get on with thier jobs.

[Summers]

Shame the knife didn't go through your throat, however.

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You're a fucking twat.

[therockbox]

Cool.

[pigeon]

It could have been any English club in Europe who caused the ban. The Liverpool fans weren't doing anything different to what happened across the country every satdee.

I have never really written much about Heysel, usually what I have written has been a defence of Liverpool fans in a tragedy that has never really been fully investigated or understood by the authorities or media, never mind the masses. It is now an event that many choose to forget or dismiss as what was a part of footballs murky past, before the days of McDonald sponsored stands, and two kits a season. Anyhow what I have tried to do is write down my recollections of the days leading up to Heysel and the events which followed. It is an honest recollection and not one that is designed to exonerate the role of Liverpool fans in the disaster, some people may disbelieve my account or disagree with my conclusions but for many who were there, I think, and hope, that some of it strikes a chord:

1985, God it seems a long time ago now. It was a bank holiday Monday, so we had plenty of time to set out for the game on the Wednesday, Trans-Alpino from Victoria, four young lads from Kirkby without a ticket between them. Seems weird now, but it was the norm in those days to go to games without a ticket, whether the game was all ticket or not- Never mind tickets, Dennis never even had a passport!

Down in London by early morning, we went for a bevy round Victoria with a gang of lads from Huyton then on the boat-train down to Dover. In those days Trans-alpino was the way to travel to euro aways- planes were very expensive, the train was £25 return, valid from Victoria and all round Belgium for five days. A lot of the lads had headed for Zebrugge and Blankenburg, but we decided that Ostend was the best bet, then on to Brugge or Brussels. Dennis was gonna follow us over the next morning once he got a one-year passport, soft cunt hadn’t thought about the post-office being shut for the bank holiday, until we noticed a office where they issued 60 hour passes to get in and out the country, sort of temporary passports, 10 mins later he was ready to go with us. It really was that easy to get in and out the country in those days.

The ferry crossing was a bit wild with the usual mix of alcohol induced scuffles and pilfering, I think that we were a bit lucky, coz some later ferries refused to carry fans. Again that seems unusual now, but wasn’t then. It was an era when football was a working class sport, when travelling away meant everything and when having no money to go, meant very little. Belgium was the gateway to Europe for many, and very easily accessible.

There were plenty of Scousers already in Ostend, and the party was in full swing in many of the bars, we soon found a cheap dive to get our heads down, four in a room of course, and after the exploits of the day and night were quickly snoring. Up early, at least before our hosts could see us, we were soon on our way and jumped the train to Brugge. We found a little ken to stay in by the river and headed out for a bev. It was before twelve but there were already plenty of reds in the town, and some obviously well on the way. A game of footy in the cathedral grounds did nothing to endear the travelling Scousers to the local constabulary, and a couple of the lads were nicked for having a draw.

Around the main square in the afternoon was a ball. Hundreds and hundreds of Scousers with loads of bars and everyone enjoying themselves. As it wore on into the early evening the bizzies started to become a bit heavy handed as the lads became a bit worse for wear, some of the arrests were totally unnecessary, but overall the atmosphere remained good, even in the bars and clubs. Still ticket-less, as were most of those there with us, we decided for an early start the next morning and head up to the ground, as soon as.

Out the room by 7am our plans were soon thwarted as we got collared for the room money, shit. Still one out of two aint bad, and it hadn’t cost us much, so it was on the train and up to Brussels, were we soon ran into mates on an organised trip, our bags were in their room and we were on the metro up to the ground by 9am, to see if there were any tickets knockin’ about.

At the ground we couldn’t believe it, the morning of the European Cup final and we just strolled right into the main corridor of the stadium into a room full of all sorts of trophies. On the wall there were pictures of athletes, when we checked the trophies were actually for athletics not footy. Nobody knew who played at the stadium but after talking to an Arsenal fan, who had been there a few years earlier for Arsenal v Valencia, it turned out to be a Belgium 2nd division side, hardly the stuff of European dreams. It had been thirty minutes before anybody stopped and questioned us, certainly not what I’d call top class security. I never really understood what the Arsenal fan was doing there, he’d travelled from London for the game, didn’t have a ticket, and was on his own, not with Liverpool fan mates or anything.

We walked around the stadium, to see how the land lay, and they were putting up wire fencing for security, it was quite high but I’m not really sure what it was designed to do, perhaps keep those going to the match away from locals. It certainly wasn’t the type of fencing that would stop anybody from doing what they wanted to do, more likely to be used for “channelling” than anything else. The perimeter fencing of the stadium looked like old fashioned concrete base panels, with holes where the ticket collectors would stand, no turnstiles, this looked more like Kirkby Town than a stadium for the European Cup Final. Our previous finals had been held in Rome, Wembley and Paris - this ground was poorer than Walsall or Carlisle.

Between the four of us we soon decided that anyone could easily ‘bunk in’ the ground, ticket or not. Near the metro station we were approached by touts offering us tickets for the Juve end for about £30 - we weren’t interested, but they was the first of many, many touts we saw that day, at a time when it was unusual to be openly touting tickets at Liverpool matches. We headed back into Brussels for something to eat and a bevy.

The day took the usual format for such a big game, perhaps a bit more thieving and the like going on than is common now, but it was generally sound, everyone enjoying themselves, the atmosphere in the town, especially the main square, where everyone was having a ball. In the middle of this square were plenty of touts, openly spivving wads of tickets. As a group of young wags got around one such tout, a smartly dressed Belgian wearing a suit and tie, one of the lads through the ruck, grabbed a handful and was away like Davey Fairclough with a sight of goal. I think the Belgian tout was a bit shocked as he moved away and a few others followed him. There were quite a few scuffles with touts that afternoon, and generally I don’t think they did as well as they thought they would have.

Anyhow the lad who had captured the tickets soon passed them out, to our shock and dismay, not only were the tickets for the Liverpool end, they had been issued from Anfield and bore the red Liverbird stamp on the reverse in the corner. It’s something that does get me down, people from within the club, and especially players, passing tickets on to touts. In this case they had probably gone through third parties to end up in the hands of Belgian touts, but whoever had passed them on knew only too well they were taking the money out of the hands of ordinary Liverpool fans.

We had a few bevs, probably too many for the youngsters that we were, and headed up to the ground. This was still a couple of hours before the kick off, and the Metro was probably the first that we had come into contact with any amount of Italian fans, generally all was amicable. Outside the ground, even at the Juve end, it was mainly reds mulling around some looking for tickets many not bothered, some bevvied many not.

We got to the ground dead early, which is very unusual for me, and couldn’t believe the police presence. They were pathetic- more interested in whether fans had banners than if they had tickets. I doubt that there was not anyone who did not get in, ticket or not. No turnstiles, nobody bothering to collect tickets, simply taking sticks out of flags and throwing them in a corner, a complete joke. I still have my complete ticket.

We stood very near the flimsy partition between sections XY, where the Liverpool tickets were for, and Z, the section apparently set aside for neutrals. Inside the ground there was tension, and loads and loads of references to the trouble outside the ground in Rome, a year earlier. The Juve end of the ground was already full and there was loads of things going on between the Y and Z sections at the Liverpool end. It immediately became apparent that the Z section was mainly populated with Italians, reds with tickets for other parts of the ground had headed for the Liverpool section, which was far more overcrowded than other parts of the ground.

The ground was old, outdated and decaying, the steps on the terracing below your feet were not defined as such, they were more like rubble on a mound. The ground was the least fit I had ever seen; for it to hold a major event such as this was beyond comprehension. I know that Liverpool had expressed concerns over the state of the stadium, but this was beyond anyone’s imagination. Bits of rocks from the terracing were soon being launched across the flimsy divide between sections Y and Z, and soon enough the ‘chicken wire’ dividing the sections came down, as Liverpool fans spilled across the divide. The Italian fans had nowhere to go and they were faced with a wall, designed to keep people in, at the far side of the terrace, as pressure built on this wall, it eventually collapsed, causing the death of 39 football fans.

I did hear at the time, and since, that there were Liverpool fans in the Z section being attacked by Juve supporters but cannot say that I actually saw it. The Liverpool fans ran into the section and were aggressive, as hoards of Italians headed for the right hand side of the terrace. To be honest, I never saw much fighting, and I’m not sure how much actually occurred, soon the Belgian police were on the scene and tried to push the Liverpool fans back across the divide. The Police never really stood up for themselves and despite being armed with guns and batons, retreated to the front of the terrace, where they stood in front of the caged fences. Droves of Liverpool fans spread across the terrace into the Z section, mostly unaware of the death of Italians beneath the decaying rubble at the far right hand side of the terracing. It appeared that both those fans in block Z and the police had panicked, the fighting was not really any worse than most football fans had seen quite regularly at the time. That may be more of an indictment of the time than anything that happened on the night, but it is how I saw it.

At the Juve end of the ground, a huge banner was unfurled which read “Reds Animals” and people started to spill onto the pitch. Some Liverpool fans were even playing football in the goalmouth at the Liverpool end. Some Italians were obviously irate, and one pulled out what later transpired to be a phoney gun, as he made his way down the side of the pitch.

By the time Phil Neal came on to the microphone, appealing for calm, I think most people had given up hope of the match taking place and had consigned themselves to it being abandoned. By now there were rumours starting to circulate that people had died but I never believed them, and when the players came out onto the pitch I totally discounted it. The game was played, not surprisingly, in as stale an atmosphere as you were ever likely to find, I find it amazing now that it actually took place. I watched the game from the Z section of the terracing, just the other side of where the divide had once stood. I later found out that Graeme Souness, then playing in Italy, had attacked Liverpool fans on the TV, I have always found his uninformed and small minded comments objectionable, but to do at a time when nobody had any real comprehension of what was actually going on was nothing short of disgraceful.

As we left the stadium the rumours began to grow and eventually it became clear they were more than rumours. We immediately tried to contact home to let everyone know that we were OK. Imagine our surprise as we arrived at the hotel to see our bags in the street outside. We had already decided that we would get off, but this made it clear we were being tarred. It wasn’t long before a cattle truck arrived to take us to Ostend. Most reds were either keen to get out or were being thrown out of Brussels. Everyone, without exception, just wanted to get home.

As we got off the boat another cattle-truck was waiting to take us to Victoria, packed to the rafters. Some lads had newspapers, they did not make nice reading. Painted as the scum of the earth by everybody who had anything to say, there was no real understanding of what had gone on, I don’t think there is to this day. John Smith had told reporters that he believed the trouble to be the fault of ‘Chelsea fans’ - it was nonsense, clutching at straws. There had been fans of other clubs there, there always is in major cup finals, but not in any significant numbers. As we went up the escalator at Victoria, a woman spat in my face and called me scum, as she travelled on her way in the opposite direction. It hurt. I would normally have gone for a bevy in London but I think just about everybody headed off on their journey home that day.

The months that followed were weird, with the British media on a witch-hunt for specific Liverpudlians that the police had identified. It was disgraceful exercise that never attempted to actually examine the problems that had led to the disaster.

Heysel along with Hillsborough were defining moments in the history of Liverpool football club, painful moments which have defined the way in we watch football forever. The twenty six Liverpool fans charged over Heysel were scapegoats, pawns in a game of political chess.

The faults of Heysel run deep, with a corrupt UEFA choosing a stadium based on political expediency and backhanders, a stadium that was so dilapidated it was not fit to host a game of schoolgirl netball never mind a European Cup Final. They lie with the Belgian authorities whose corruption allowed a national stadium to deteriorate into such a state of disrepair yet never did anything to discourage such major events. They more than anyone knew that Heysel was a time-bomb waiting to explode, yet continued to exploit the situation for personal and national financial gain. It lies with the Belgian police whose professional ineptitude meant that there were little if any proper security measures in place at the stadium, who panicked faced with a manageable crowd control problem. It also lies, to a degree, with football fans and a tribal rivalry which meant that some Liverpool fans blamed their Italian counterparts for the events of twelve months earlier at an Italian stadium. They were not going to let that happen again. The Italian fans were not blameless in their role either, and had the events which took place inside the ground never happened, there would still have been trouble between English and Italian fans that night. Some blame for this has to fall on a society that did little to discourage the culture of football hooliganism amongst youngsters, and helped create an atmosphere in which nationalistic fervour could thrive.

Like Hillsborough, it is unlikely that Heysel would ever occurred in a safe stadium, properly Policed where the question of ticket allocation was properly and fairly examined. Also like Hillsborough the events of that evening have never been fully and properly examined in a fair and accurate public enquiry - they never will be. The final area of similarity is in the media’s desire to blame events on those easiest to identify, the fans, rather than those most culpable, bureaucratic organisations hiding behind corporate identities.

The faults of Heysel run much deeper than many would realise and certainly are far more complex than the morons who stand on the Park End singing “Murderers” would ever understand. Sadly, it did take the death of thirty nine Juventus and later ninety-six Liverpool fans for some people to take a good look at how the game is governed and administered, and hopefully they have now learned that the lives of these fans, of you and me, is far more important than the game.

Most Liverpool fans had travelled to Belgium, like myself, with a sense of expectation, going to show the footballing world that we were still top of the tree. Everton had taken the title and the Cup Winners Cup, but we were going to win the one that mattered. Nobody would take that away from us, it was going to be ours for keeps. Nobody travelled expecting what was to follow, certainly nobody wanted it to happen, the vultures in the British press apart, maybe. That sense of expectation, joy and laughter turned to disaster that night in Brussels, in what was a disaster for football more than it ever was the triumph for football hooliganism some in the gutter press would have you believe. Nobody that was there will ever forget it, nor the events which followed that night.

It can only be hoped and prayed that the lessons have been learned, that life is more important than the greed and corruption which still lies at the heart of most of the problems related to both football and society in general.

RIP

You’ll Never Walk Alone

[evertonfan]

As an Everton fan, I refuse to join in with the chants of Murderers, Murderers, at the derby game. To say that Liverpool fans got us kicked out of Europe is ridiculous, and it ignores the flaws in the distribution of tickets and the condition of the stadium. Seems like even today there are people who just don't understand what actually happened.

As for the racism, it's easy to say players should get on with it, but every player is different, some might not be affected, some might. And until you're in that situation, can you really understand what it feels like? I don't think you can. Racist chanting was a major problem at Goodison in the 1980's, and although it's not totally cleared up, it's a lot better than it was. Although away games still seem to be a problem, and apparantly there was an incident recently at Aston Villa on a club organised coach. If Everton can find out who was on this coach, there is no way they should be allowed to enter Goodison or anything Everton related anywhere, ever again. There really is no place for people like this in football.

UEFA or FIFA should step in over Aragones. What kind of precadent does his so called punishment set? Now any similarly backwards thinking governing body can, in a similar incident, claim they were following suit.