UEFA to decide on Liverpools CL place today

[Malenko]

Three teams have been moved up a round each.  There was already a place for Liverpool (the title holder place).

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I don't care if three teams have been moved up a round. The fact still remains, there's now one more team in the competition than there usually is, thus one team won't have an opponent...

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[pigeon]

I don't care if three teams have been moved up a round. The fact still remains, there's now one more team in the competition than there usually is, thus one team won't have an opponent...

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[Farmer Reil]

But doesn't that mean there's now an extra team in one of the groups? :/

Each group has four teams, right? Two of which qualify automatically for that stage. So each group starts with two teams before qualifying takes place.

Then the remaining two teams in each group have to qualify.

But if Fenerbache move up, one group automatically has three teams.

So that leaves only fifteen spots open.

So does that mean that two teams that would originally qualify from the third qualifying round now have to play each other? Since both of them can't qualify?

That seems a bit unfair. To just say "Yeah, normally you'd now be in the group stage, but since Liverpool have been entered and stuff had to be changed, you have to play another qualifying round that nobody else other than your opponents have to play"?

If not, how does it work? :/

I just don't get how you can add one team and expect everything to still work

But there aren't any more teams. Normally the holders would be in the group stages, but instead Fenerbahce have been bumped up.

Edited June 10, 2005 by TheReilDeal

[pigeon]

Fenerbahce have got Liverpool's place. There was a place there for them all along.

If the FA had nominated Liverpool instead of Everton, Fenerbahce would have been moved up because there would be one team less in the competition.

1) UEFA reserve a separate place in the draw (the TH spot, top seeds) for the Champions League winners so no club/country misses out by being bumped from the Champions League if a situation arises where a club wins the competition but fails to qualify domestically. As such there's no complications in "rejigging" the draw as suggested by many clueless journos as UEFA have already taken account of this situation.

TH = title holder (Liverpool in 2005 )

2) If the CL winners also qualify for the CL through their domestic league the TH spot is not utilised (though the club remains top seeded) and the qualifying clubs move up one place in the seedings and the draw with the following happening:

a) Fenerbahce, Champions of Turkey, progress from Qualifying Round 3 straight into the Group Stages.

b) Wisla Krakow, Champions of Poland move from QR2 to QR3

c) The Champions of Romania and Slovakia (yet to be determined) move from QR1 to QR2.

3) If the CL winners don't qualify domestically no problem, there's an extra place for that country and their CL winners take the TH place and the draw doesn't change, Fernebache et al staying in their respective place ... unless the club happens to come from Spain, Italy or England (the countries who already have four places) ... UEFA have one rule for 49 countries, and one for the other three.

4) In this case the country's FA can decide to bump their fourth place domestic team down into the UEFA Cup and allow the CL winners to take their place - it's not a set rule but entirely at the discretion of the FA concerned. The English FA has decided to nominate Everton.

5) The piece on the English FA's website in March 2004 re: Arsenal and Chelsea wasn't a press release but a Q&A some minnion at the FA website answered. In 2000 Madrid finished 5th in La Liga and won the CL and Spain used their discretion to bump 4th placed Zaragoza down to the UEFA Cup.

From uefa.com:

List of 2005/06 CL Qualifiers:

Pos Assoc. Grp UCL Q3 UCL Q2 UCL Q1

TH (1)

1 ESP CH RU N3 N4 (12)

2 ENG CH RU N3 N4

3 ITA CH RU N3 N4

4 GER CH RU N3 (9)

5 FRA CH RU N3

6 POR CH RU N3

7 GRE CH RU (18)

8 NED CH RU

9 CZE CH RU

10 TUR CH RU

11 SCO CH RU

12 BEL CH RU

13 SUI CH RU

14 UKR CH RU

15 NOR CH RU

16 POL CH (35)

17 ISR CH

18 AUT CH

19 SCG CH

20 BUL CH

21 RUS CH

22 DEN CH

23 CRO CH

24 SWE CH

25 HUN CH

26 ROU CH

27 SVK CH

28 SLO CH

29 CYP CH

30 MOL CH

31 LAT CH

32 FIN CH

33 BIH CH

34 GEO CH

35 MKD CH

36 LTU CH

37 BLS CH

38 ISL CH

39 MLT CH

40 IRL CH

41 ARM CH

42 WAL CH

43 LIE CH

44 ALB CH

45 NIR CH

46 EST CH

47 LUX CH

48 AZE CH

49 FAR CH

50 KAZ CH

If a team wins the CL, and manages to qualify for the CL the next season (you know, like real champions do)

Edited June 10, 2005 by pigeon

[Malenko]

I don't care if three teams have been moved up a round. The fact still remains, there's now one more team in the competition than there usually is, thus one team won't have an opponent...

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But there aren't any more teams. Normally the holders would be in the group stages, but instead Fenerbahce have been bumped up.

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[pigeon]

There aren't any more teams in the CL than last year.

[Malenko]

There aren't any more teams in the CL than last year.

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[Farmer Reil]

Edit: This was in reply to pigeon's post where he listed the rankings, and makes little sense now

I know that.

What I'm saying is:

If there was "already a spot for Liverpool" then A, why all the fucking fuss? and B, surely there'd then be one less team in the competition? You said that above, but didn't explain how it was resolved...

It just doesn't add up.

If the CL winners qualify, there's one less team because they're taking two qualifying spots (one as CL winners and one as domestic qualifiers).

If the CL winners don't qualify, and are added, there's one MORE team because you just added a team to the competition that wasn't there last year.

It's just not mathematically possible to take a 64 team competition and add a 65th team to it, then expect it to work out. Obviously it does, I'm just asking for a dumbasses guide Edit2: Which Malenko has just provided Cheers.

So basically, the three teams that got "moved up" haven't just been moved, they've been given a bye to the next round. Thus, there are 66 teams, because they added Liverpool, and the bye.

WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY THAT?

*picks up pieces of brain that were scattered in the explosion*

Edited June 10, 2005 by TheReilDeal

[pigeon]

The four team rule is what has confused the whole issue. At least they have cleared it up for the future.

[pigeon]

Liverpool celebrate now but consequences are far reaching

Sunday Herald, 12th June 2005

Gabriele Marcotti believes that Uefa’s decision will have knock-on effects for years to come

RIGHT now, they’re celebrating on Merseyside. Everton are confirmed as Champions League participants in 2005-06 (the Football Association already entered them but, hey, you never know, Uefa are a funny bunch). Liverpool will get to defend their title, which most agree is only fair: a case of common sense triumphing over the evil Eurocrat gnomes in Nyon.

And, of course, they’re celebrating in Soho Square. Brian Barwick, the FA chief executive, cleverly outsmarted Uefa and convinced them to admit an unprecedented five teams (25 percent of the Premiership) into the competition, proving to all that the Premier League is the biggest and the best while doing his bit for English football.

Who knows? Maybe they’re even smiling at UEFA headquarters in Nyon. After all, they made a common sense decision and nobody was penalised. Sure, they stretched the rules, but five English teams equals more revenue for everyone and, besides, who would begrudge the European Champions the right to defend their crown?

The sad thing is that all of the above – except, perhaps Everton – have no reason whatsoever to be happy. By deciding to scrap its rules and admit all five English clubs, Uefa has done serious harm, both to its own credibility and to its long-term independence.

England’s PR campaign and behind-the-scenes horse-trading will leave them beholden to other countries for years to come. Instead of a guaranteed three clubs in the Champions League proper, the Premier League’s contingent risks being whittled down to two. And Liverpool face six extra matches over the summer, a scheduling mess which will likely force them to cancel their lucrative tour to Asia while wreaking havoc with the players’ summer break and pre-season training. But no, we’re all supposed to celebrate.

Let’s get one thing clear. Liverpool deserve to be in the Champions League. From its inception in 1956, back when it was known simply as the European Cup, the champions have always returned to defend their title. It would have been a travesty if that had not been the case but, unlike what the FA would have you believe, it would have been a self-inflicted travesty.

Events this season were far from unprecedented (something similar happened just four years ago, when Real Madrid won the Champions League and finished fifth in La Liga): in fact, Uefa’s own rules, downloadable from their website, address just such a situation. Rule 1.0.3 states that it is up to the national associations to decide whether to admit the fourth place team or the defending champions, with the club which misses out destined for the Uefa Cup.

The FA bottled the decision. Back in March, they announced that even if Liverpool won the Champions League, Everton would get the nod, as long as they finished fourth. They justified this by saying that the Champions League was not their competition. Not only was this unfair to Liverpool, it was patently false as well: the FA is one of 51 Uefa members, which means the Champions League is the FA’s competition as much as England is Brian Barwick’s country.

Of course, when Liverpool did win the Champions’ League, the FA cried, whinged and cajoled their way towards securing a fifth spot, aided by the bleatings of a sheep-like English press, many of whom hadn’t bothered to read the competition’s rules either.

Said rules clearly state no country can have more than four entrants. Which meant the FA had to convince Uefa’s executive members to ignore their own regulations. This was no mean feat. One can only imagine the secret dealing and influence peddling which went on behind the scenes to come up with the convoluted compromise which will see the Reds kick off in the first qualifying round in one month’s time.

Of course, some countries surely did not require much persuasion: for the likes of Total Network Solutions, Glentoran or Dudelange of Luxembourg, the prospect of a tie against Liverpool (and the chance to sell their home television rights to the UK market) is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime jackpot which can settle the bills for decades to come. Equally, either Italy and Russia, both of whom have a representative on the executive committee and both of whom are bidding to organise Euro 2012, no doubt got a promise of support in exchange for their backing on this matter. Most likely, the continent’s other big leagues, such as Spain and Germany, quickly fell into line with the FA’s wishes: after all, if Uefa can ignore its rulebook for England, who’s to say it might not be their turn next?

Indeed, that’s the most pernicious side-effect of this whole affair. Uefa have basically said: “We’ve got rules, but if you’re big enough, rich enough and make enough of a fuss, we’re happy to ignore them.”

The body’s credibility is now shot and the individuals themselves are vulnerable to future abuses. Let’s not forget too that the FA’s under-the-table negotiations presumably came at a price: they now owe favours to just about everyone in Uefa, which means it could be a long, long time before an English ground hosts another European final or an English referee officiates during the latter stages of the Champions League or Uefa Cup.

But at least Uefa and the FA have only themselves to blame for what is to come. Liverpool, on the other hand, through no fault of their own, are left in the most humiliating of positions: that of victims fooled into thinking they are victors. All they have to do is come to terms with what would have happened if the FA had done the right and logical thing from the start, admit them as defending champions in place of Everton. They would have been automatically admitted to the group stage of the Champions League as a top seed, like Chelsea, Barcelona and Juventus. And England would have three guaranteed sides in the Champions League proper.

Instead, their place in the group stage goes to Fenerbahce, who thus avoid the pitfalls of the third qualifying round (is it any wonder that Senes Erzik, the Turkish delegate, backed the FA’s appeal?). Liverpool, meanwhile, have to play six matches to even get to the group stage, while running the risk of facing Everton along the way. On top of that, their pre-season training will have to be overhauled, with players returning three weeks early and their tour of Japan,which would have brought a neat little cash injection, will almost definitely be cancelled.

Which is why all those Liverpool fans celebrating on your TV screens look rather like burglary victims who have been convinced they are better off without all their belongings. This is not a victory for their club, not even a pyrrhic one, it’s a combination of highway robbery and taking the mickey.

[Malenko]

Uefa have basically said: “We’ve got rules, but if you’re big enough, rich enough and make enough of a fuss, we’re happy to ignore them.”

[Farmer Reil]

Best. Article. Ever.

That's all that needs to be said

[Herr Matzat]

Thank fuck. If you're the Champions, you should be expected to defend the bloody crown. Good decision, UEFA.

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[therockbox]

Thank fuck. If you're the Champions, you should be expected to defend the bloody crown. Good decision, UEFA.

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Yes, exactly, from now on it should be disalowed to take part in the CL if you win the UEFA Cup, you should be expected to defend the bloody crown !

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[Herr Matzat]

yes, it´s so full of champions that the current champion wassent even a champion wen it entert...

[Farmer Reil]

It's so full of Champions that Everton are in it

[Dan]

It should be called the elite trophy. It would be shit if it was just the champions.

[Farmer Reil]

Like I said to rvdwannabe one day, the Champions League is The UEFA "Teams Who Are Really Good" League.

The UEFA Cup is The UEFA "Teams Who Aren't Good Enough To Be In The Teams Who Are Really Good League But Can Still Beat A Few Teams That Suck. Now With 100% More League, Because Leagues Are Cool. Even If It's Supposed To Be A Knockout Competition. More Games = More Money, Right?" Cup. With Leaguey Bits.

Edited June 15, 2005 by TheReilDeal

[pigeon]

It should be called the European Cup again.

[Malenko]

It should be called the European Cup again.

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